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   Home » Off Air Audio» Sansui TU-X1 Broadcast monitor. (57 posts, 3 pages)
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  »  New  The ultimate buffer – light in the end of a tunnel..  A few minor corrections...  Audio Discussions  Forum     36  385812  04-28-2005
  »  New  Where the FM quality comes from?..  Freaking ridicules…...  Off Air Audio Forum     22  191010  11-02-2005
  »  New  How to record FM broadcasts...  Left to center...  Off Air Audio Forum     125  1091306  11-04-2005
  »  New  Align your FM tuners!..  The Munich technician?...  Off Air Audio Forum     7  88732  03-27-2006
  »  New  K-Stereo Ambience Recovery Processor..  Peter's UpperBass + K-Stereo Files....  Didital Things  Forum     29  263550  10-04-2007
  »  New  Antenna solutions for FM..  Hurricane Irene ibn Oz in Boston...  Off Air Audio Forum     27  193511  02-21-2008
  »  New  Where are our good Tuners?..  Ok, it did clear the things up....  Off Air Audio Forum     43  399964  03-31-2008
  »  New  Kenwood L-02T and the hype of FM tuners..  Good reception...inferior Sound...  Off Air Audio Forum     2  66544  04-25-2008
  »  New  The FM Stereo and Multiplex MPX decoders..  The new life of Rohde & Schwarz decoder....  Off Air Audio Forum     12  149662  05-02-2008
  »  New  Rohde & Schwarz EU-6201 Tuner..  The Schwarz runs from crystal oscillator!...  Off Air Audio Forum     34  345076  05-07-2008
  »  New  Tuners and digital noise from DAW, A/D and D/A..  Beter installation + more ferrete...  Off Air Audio Forum     10  111200  07-20-2008
  »  New  A tube tuner? REL Precedent 646C..  REL Precedent Report...  Off Air Audio Forum     24  260989  07-28-2008
  »  New  TU-X1 setup..  State of the live broadcast...  Off Air Audio Forum     16  139269  09-06-2008
  »  New  Sansui AU-X1 bomb.....  Sansui AU-X1 bomb......  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16188  03-25-2009
  »  New  Forward in the past with old radios...  Kitchen radio as a source of immense pleasure....  Off Air Audio Forum     18  152529  01-21-2011
03-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 6864
Reply to: 6813
Sui tunas & signal ovaload

Romy wrote :

"...I know, it is kind of contra-intuitive to kill output of antenna to get better sound. But I learned that I need to do it... BTW, if anyone knows where the source a 75Ohm 0-40dB (not 20dB) LPAD with coax input and output cables going in and out from the BACK of the unit then please let me know..."

It looks like this issue was taken into consideration in the design of the Sansui TU990. I use a modified version of this tuner. The TU9900 has an antenna attenuator button on the front panel (not the result of a modification; it was sold new with this feature)... I am not really sure if this leads to "quality attenuation" or not, but with some super strong signals it does sometimes improve sound; in which case I don't hesitate to use it. Looking at the photos of the TU-X1, I am surprised to not find such a feature.

I live where FM program quality justifies a good tuner. Despite getting what I consider to be really excellent sound from this modded TU9900, I will one day compare it to a TU-X1. I will post my findings here.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
glaesemann
New York
Posts 22
Joined on 12-18-2007

Post #: 27
Post ID: 6865
Reply to: 6863
Cooked by lightning
The lightning strike may have caused changes beyond the obvious damage as well.

I knew a caddy who was hit by lightning and though it didn't kill him, he was never the same again either.


"I'd rather know than believe." - Carl Sagan
03-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 6867
Reply to: 6865
More about the FM reception

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I live where FM program quality justifies a good tuner. Despite getting what I consider to be really excellent sound from this modded TU9900, I will one day compare it to a TU-X1. I will post my findings here.

Jessie, if you live in a place with good FM program then with a good tuner it completely redefines what high-end all about…. I never heard the TU9900 and it you lay you hams on TU-X1 it would be very interesting to learn how they compare.  BTW, here in US we have no interesting AM programming (just new and talk show) but in Europe, where everything is much closer you might have better AM programs. The TU-X1 has remarkably good AM sound – I was very surprised how far it is from what we get in car. BTW, according to Dima the TU-X1’s AM section is much more sophisticated and according to him “proper” then the TU-X1’s FM section

 glaesemann wrote:
The lightning strike may have caused changes beyond the obvious damage as well.

I knew a caddy who was hit by lightning and though it didn't kill him, he was never the same again either.

Perhaps it is what I was asking Ken many times. He assured me that whatever damage was done by lightning is completely rectified and there is no memory in the tuner that it ever took place.  Tell it to your caddy… :-)

 Romy wrote:
After a few days of self-education and harassment of various technical people I got what I need... – the truth and the reasons why ….

Regarding the overload – here are the fragments of valuable  comments of “John A” who helped me to learn more about the problem:

“ Overload is a bitch with most of the high sensitvity vintage tuners! …

The TU-X1 meter should be calibrated in DBf and thus if aligned properly should work fine with ONE 100dbF signal.

But when you throw 2 or 3 very strong signals close together at it, then it just pukes!. I don't have overload here with my modern tuners but my vintage units will  get "hissy" when my antenna aims close to a local around 100dbF here. Keep in mind that hiss is not the only symptom of overload as some of my tuners increase sound "hard" or strident as the signal becomes too strong. 

The Kenwood L-o2T which has RF and IF AGC should work for your conditions better, but a Technics 9030 is probably best for handling overload, unfortunately it doesn't sound too great without major modds

It is inherent in the design, as it has 2 RF amps when almost all others have only one. It was designed to be a supertuner spec wise so Sansui went nuts on the RF gain to get the best "marketing" numbers (8.7dBf) where people would recognize the superiority vs their other tuners and the competitions. The high end Kenwoods and Technics used less RF gain and balanced mixers to avoid overload but had nowhere near the sensitivity as a result. There are always tradeoffs and tuner RF dynamic range was not as big a concern then as it is now.

Tandberg with their TPT3001a repeated this "tradeoff" of extreme sensitvity at the cost of overload resistance. It has around 8dBf usable sensitivity too and overloads like crazy also. In todays FM environment you would need to live way out in the boonies to use this level of sensitivity.

More recent tuners even bypass the RF amp completely in LOCAL mode (best solution) or have PIN diode variable attenuation to kill excess signal. In your current location it would have been best if Sansui had bypassed the 1st RF amp with a local mode switch. No gain = no IM distortion

Going from 5uV to .8uV is about 16dB more sensitive,so why do you need >20dB attenuation if you didn't have overload hiss before the alignment?

Going higher than 20dB attenuation may be questionable becuase you will throw away much of the quieting that the TU-X1 is capable of .If you look at the curves on the broachure you will see that your tuner doesnt get to max S/N until 70 to 80dBf, so if you have to attenuate all the way down to 50dBf you're not even close. If you are having problems with a very strong close station you don't want to listen to, a notch filter may be better.

This issue will be a problem for your more distant stations not the ones less than a mile from you. The nearby stations (within 2MHz and location) will cause frontend distortion while the distant station will be weak. Your experimentation with attenuation and antenna aiming will have to determine the best compromise. You'll have to minimize hiss and multipath for two input variables. Lots of fun tweaking!”

Rgs, Romy teh caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-09-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 6878
Reply to: 6867
The ”better noise” today’s recording
What a concert and from whom you think it was? The Pittsburgh Symphony led by Marek Janowski! The Korean Chee-Yun played Saint-Saëns Violin Concerto #3. The Pittsburgh with Janowski demonstrated superb sound – not too sophisticated but very withhold and very embracive to the lead instilment – very rare happens, sort of subdued orchestral ego – I love it. The recording is not “live” but live-to-tape and it is not the raw file as I record in 64bit and I resaved it for you in a regular WAV 88/24.

<< File # 1 was here. >>

The Cat

PS: Check the position of the channels and it might be off


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 6889
Reply to: 6878
I'm an envious cat
Really wonderful performance and great sound Romy. Your "tweak" to lower the noise thereshold works nicely. Channels are inversed, but who cares ;-)

Thanks for sharing. Regards.
03-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 6890
Reply to: 6889
The reversed channels of FM broadcasts

I need to address sometime this problem as many of my recordings are in random channels order. I have one of my local stations that have very good programming being very negligent to the correctness of the right and left channels and very negligent to the accuracy of signal. I sometimes flip the channels to chance what they do and sometimes I do not do it as I schedule recordings. That all crated a situation that I stopped to care what is right position of the channels on my recording systems. What I load a file and play it is very simple to flip the channels in WaveLab. I think I need to set all my recording dear to the right R/L setting and keep it this way, juts resaving the wrong broadcasted files in reversed configuration. I know that inversion of file do not activate any DSP or anything like this but still I treat the original file as tape masters and tend do not screw with them.   It would be nice to have channels reverse on DAC via a remote control…

BTW, tonight we have live-to-tape Mahler 4 and Das Lied von der Erde from Concertgebouw lead by Bernard Haitink. Two days later we have live-to-tape Keuris: To Brooklyn Bridge, Dvorak: No. 9 and Schat: Arch music for St. Louis by Netherlands Radio Philharmonic orchestra with Edo de Waart conducting.  At the same day we have LIVE broadcast Jennifer Koh play Bach. On Sunday we have Donizetti “L'elisir d'amore” LIVE broadcast from Shubert Theatre… + LIVE MET on Saturday…. I did not mention the rest of FM programs.  Who the hell needs those CD/LP/Tapes and the rest crap with such FM programming?

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 6902
Reply to: 6878
Eventuality, “live” with the “new noise” tuner.

Juts cough 2 hours ago a “live” broadcast of the air with Violinist Jennifer Koh plays Bach partitas.

http://jenniferkoh.com/

I think it is enough to hear it to get what I mean about the worth of FM.

You have to be able to play 88/24 format and the 64-bit files to listen this recording. (If you do not do the 64-bit then try to rename it into WAV)

<< File # 1 was here. >>

The caT

PS: BTW, where to upload the large files? Is any public place where I can free upload those large files (in order do not destroy my web server with downloads) and would not require people to have membership to get them?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 33
Post ID: 6903
Reply to: 6902
Use Pando
http://www.pando.com/

its very well behaved.
up to 1gb for free.
works in the background.
doesn't mess with your mind...

cheers op.9


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
03-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 6905
Reply to: 6902
Holly Molly!!!

Wow Romy, I wish my local stations broadcasted with that quality and I managed to get them with that ultralow noise floor. Really wonderful music and sound quality (in the context of my handicapped computer system).

Were you up to the task to upload or sending (maybe a DVD-R with the raw files) some really worth performances, just let me know. I'd happily pay any expenses. I know I'll never be able to enjoy them with the same "audio quality" as you do, but I really don't care, it's the nice music they program on your FM stations what I find wonderful. I have several versions of the Bach's Partitas, I don't know if it's the FM or that they caught Ms Koh in an illuminated moment, but none of the versions I know has that nice balance of Bach's brains and player's emotions. Really beautiful. Thanks for sharing Romy.

Rgrds.

03-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 6910
Reply to: 6905
Schumann Piano Concerto today, LIVE

I scheduled today to record the BSO’s Friday broadcast and when I got home I have a good surprise – it was not bad.  Garrick Ohlsson played Schumann Piano Concerto with BSO lead by Daniele Gatti . The BSO was “here and there” most of the time but in the very end they warmed up and it was better. I like Garrick Ohlsson, he is frequent in Boston and in the end it was a good Schumann Concerto.

BTW, it is ridicules why the file, if I take a fragment out of it, is losing quality and picks some alien noises and pitches (!!!) aberrations.  You can head in the beginning there are some strange mechanical sounds that I do not have in raw file. Anyhow, even “as is” it is good enough. Live performance is always live. The file is as usual 88/24

http://www.badongo.com/file/8285819

The Cat

PS: I tying a new file sharing service as my file last night made at another two forums and my service was chocking.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 6911
Reply to: 6910
Pretty good
Thanks for sharing. Getting the Badongo thing to work was a bit of a hassle for the file being split in two parts and needing the tool to merge them, but once installed and downloaded, it worked very well. Did you get Premier user? I would pay your subscription to have you sharing whole performances hahahaha ;-) At 24/88 I estimate a 1 hour performance to be at around 2Gb size.... really huge files! Maybe some performance you tape is worth all the effort to have it uploaded.

Regarding the music, this one wasn't bad, but not as good as Bach's partitas or the Saint-Saëns... well, hard to say from a 5 minutes piece.
I'm stilll an envious cat :-) Rgrds.
03-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 6914
Reply to: 6911
It was the bad Daniele Gatti.

Hm, I did not know that they spited the file on two halfs. I presume that it was their “catch”. Immediately uninstall the software they made you to download and run the intrusion detection procedures on your PC.

The Sound you heard on Schumann Concerto has nothing to do with recording – it was how Daniele Gatti made the BSO to sound. He made BSO to sound in a way sharp, shallow, with underdeveloped bottom, with bad use of the Hall, with overly prominent cupper group - very uncomfortable sound. They played after Schumann the Shostakovich Fifth and it was nightmare. The opining of the Fifth’s last movement sounded nothing short then Khachaturian’s “Saber Dance”…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 6923
Reply to: 6914
The home-cooked “Elixir of Love”

Today there was a broadcast of Gaetano Donizetti “L'elisir d'amore” from our local Shubert Theater by Boston Lyric. I always love those small-stage production – they might not have the killing cast but they try honestly and have that boutique quality…

http://www.blo.org/season_elisir.html

The Theater is small 1600 seats, with orchestra in a pit and the entire theater has small but very hommy sound. The “L'elisir d'amore” was very nice today: friendly and kind. Here is a fragment from the beginning of the second act…

http://www.mediafire.com/?lxyj4yyj3ly

I still disappointed that it is imposable to “save file as” without loosing Sound quality – my ordinal file is WAY better. Apparently by “save file as” the stupid WaveLab activates the re-rendering even if the rate and resolution was not changed.

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 7048
Reply to: 6923
The TU-X1 in it's whole beauty.

I brought home another "top-rating" tuner with better front-end and trying to see if the TU-X1 hold the ground. The competition was groundless – Sansui destroyed the contestant, I will talk about it more in future.

Minwhile it was a broadcast today that was virtually meant to demonstrate the TU-X1 virtues. It was Richard Hickox leading Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra with Christian Giger, playing Britten Symphony for Cello. Unfortunately I can’t not to let you to listen the file at full 88/24 as it become too large and the file sharing service that I use has 100Meg limit for a single file. So, I down-converted it 44.1K and 20Bit, the file is 75Meg.  Of course the quality went down the hill but still you will have the idea.

http://www.mediafire.com/?wwmcedb20j2

The FM broadcasts is where the truly high end lives.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-31-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 7056
Reply to: 6815
FA-7

Dear Antonio,

RE: your question about what the FA-7 connector is for, the TU-X1 brochure says:

An "F" type connector is provided exclusively for use with the optional Sansui FA-7.

...

FA-7 FM/AM Compatible Antenna System:

- World's first FM/AM compatible antenna system (Pat. Pend.)
- Both FM and AM reception is possible with one antenna and one cable connected to receiver/tuner's FM/AM terminal
- FM antenna with sharp directionality for reduced multipath interference
- non-directional AM antenna.

RE: connections that are being used on my TU-X1:

- FM antenna to 75 ohm cable to ANTENNA FM 75 ohm (unbalanced).
- AM antenna to ANTENNA AM and ANTENNA GND connectors.

- FM OUTPUT (FIXED) (L & R) to my amplifier (L & R inputs # 4).
- OUTPUT-1 (VARIABLE) (L & R) to my amplifier (L & R inputs # 5).
- OUTPUT-2 (VARIABLE) (L & R) to my amplifier (L & R inputs # 6).

We reside 50 miles from the closest broadcast towers and the FM station that I am usually tuned to reads about 82 on the dBf FM Signal/Multipath meter.  The FM antenna uses 2 FM antennae mounted parallel on a pole with rotator and remote controller.  The AM antenna is a heavy duty remote tuned AM loop antenna with control box.

Regards, Peter Foster.

04-01-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 7061
Reply to: 7056
AM/FM FA-7 Antenna
Hi Peter, thank you very much for the information. Have you had the chance to try the propietary Sansui antenna with your TU-X1? Do you know if it's an indoor or outdoor antenna?

Rgrds.
04-01-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 42
Post ID: 7063
Reply to: 7061
FA-7 antenna
Dear Antonio,  there is a picture of the Sansui FA-7 antenna in the TU-X1 brochure and it definitely looks like it is a small external antenna designed for use in high density accommodation.  I did not try this antenna.  In my situation I have a large amount of roof space to use and we live in a semi rural area so I decided to uses a parallel array of 2 large FM antennae mounted vertically (as opposed to a single FM antenna that is usually mounted horizontally).  The results are very good.  With kind regards, Peter Foster.
04-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 7268
Reply to: 6863
The experimental Sansui is back to business.

The life with FM is great – did not play record for a month or so… I was playing with some other tuners that came across Kenwood L-02T and Mono Scott 310. Both were no good.

Anyhow, the experimental Sansui was running all that time. The “tone” at HF got burned and caught on but the low end never was as good as on my original tuner. I returned all “parts upgrade” that I did but it did not help. So, was about to let this tuner go but today I decided to give to the experimental Sansui one more chance. Do not ask me HOW is found it but after 3 hour of trying I did found that the problem was the faulty C605 capacitor. After I replaced it the experimental Sansui was singing very-very nice. I put all parts back and even more. I found a very cool way to push it slightly further: I bypass the out 5uF caps (C17, C19, and C15). The tuner has IC in out stage and the blocking caps block DC from the IC. I measured the DC as it was 480mV. I figured: so what?

I tried and I heard no clicks – no surprise: I greatly attenuate the signal in my preamp to run my system. So, I was running Sansui DC-coupled with no caps after output state. Great improvement in upper range – love it! I will probably convert my original unit to the same tweak.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 7344
Reply to: 7268
The Experiential Sansui takes the lead and gets a new duty.

It is infesting how the FM glory is pushing aside my interests in other media. Anyhow after many experiments and “tweaking” my Experiential TU-1X not juts equal to the original in Sound but suppresses the original and it has became my reference recording source (I my post some examples of the records from the last week). So, I am very glad that I did not get rid of my Experiential Sansui after the initial unsuccessful attempt.

However, the Sansui TU-1X tail is not over.  With all simplicity and un-sophistication the TU-1X it turned out to have an amazingly good sounding multiplex decoder. I am experimenting now with front-end with IM section that is more capable then Sansui TU-1X but it is VERY hard to beat the TU-1X stereo decoder. The basic battle now is between the old switching multiplex and the newer PLL decoders. Sansui TU-1X uses the HA-11223W chip to extract stereo from 19kHz. It is $3-worth chip but it so beautiful sounds!!! If my other method will not be able to defeat the TU-1X’s stereo decoder then I will use other TU-1X’s juts as the multiplex stereo extractor and output stage. It is too big and probably it would not be difficult to rebuild it from scratch but I do not want to do it myself. If any of you know an interestingly sounding PLL stereo decoder around the HA11223W then let me know. For the time being I will be using the F2972 board of my Sansui TU-1X…

Theoretically it would be a good idea to switch TU-1X’s output section to work delectably from internal or from externals sources but would like in no way to degrade the original TU-1X sound form the internals IM section. Perhaps in the future is the Sansui will be the uncontestable multiplex extractor winner then I will go to this direction…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 9085
Reply to: 4649
Sansuis, Telefunkens and Accuphase
fiogf49gjkf0d

 doug s. wrote:

re: my tu-x1, yes, it's a fine sounding beast.  unfortunately, i cannot give you any info re: how it sounded before mods; when i bought it, it was japan-spec - 76-90mhz tuning band, 50us deemphasis and 100v.  i had it sent directly to joseph chow, a former kenwood tuna engineer, who now owns audio horizons/component plus; a mfr and refurb/mod outfit.  i had him conwert it to usa spec, including the tuning dial.  and, as long as he had it, i had him refurb it and mod it, per his premium mod package, which can be seen here:

http://www.componentplususa.com/pages/upgrades.html

it's funny, he actually has a pic of my tuna on his main component plus page - i recognize it cuz he sent the pic to me; i told him it was unacceptable, i wanted the tuning dial to look exactly like standard production, not the black/white dial as shown in the pic.  so, he had to re-do the dial. 

http://www.componentplususa.com/pages/componentplus.html

Hm, the conversion from Japan-spec to US-spec was a hell of a work! BTW, do not agree with all modification they propose.

 doug s. wrote:
anyway, this is a fine sounding tuna.  but, i am not sure it is better than my stephen sank modded and refurb'd harman kardon citation 18 - a direct a-b would be necessary, and i haven't taken the time to do it.  i suspect that my tu-x1 might even be able to be taken further; i have seen an on-line documentation where someone re-built one practically from the bottom up, w/only the best parts...

(stephen sank's home page):
http://www.thuntek.net/~bk11/home.htm

I do not know anything about Harman Kardon and I quoted it in order to keep your comment in this thread.

 doug s. wrote:

i suspect the tu-x1 *might* have a tiny edge in the lowest bass response, but if it is, it ain't by much.  considering how relatively cheap the hk 18 is, even after mods, i'd recommend it as a freaking bargain.  as is the tu9900, after mods.  the tu-9900, i know gives up the tiniest bit of low-end bass to the tu-x1, but it is so much nicer looking, and a bit easier to place on a rack - the tu-x1 is huge.  now, i also had a stock tu9900; mods improved this one a *lot*.  the one i have now was first worked on by mr chow, then its owner sent it to mike williams at radio-x-tuners, for further filter mods.

http://radioxtuners.com/

I heard a lot of good comment about modified TU-9900. I never had it and never heard it. I need to look at it’s circuit to see what it have in there.

 doug s. wrote:
now, i also have read with interest your comments about the r&s ballempfanger; i once owned (since sold) a telefunken ebu 3137/3 ballempfanger; it was a fine sounding and receiving piece, thru a slightly modded studio-12 stereo mpx decoder, but it was no better than my hk 18...

http://www.ak-tubes.de/Tuner/Ballempfaenger/Telefunken_EBU/ebu.htm

have you ever heard a rotel rht-10?  my stock unit sounds wery nice indeed; i have heard that, after mods, it is likely even better than an accuphase t109v, sansui tu-x1 or kenwood l-02t.  i am wanting to get mine modded.  and, i also want to try an accuphase t1000; thru a dac, it is supposed to be a significant step up from the standard "holy grail" tuna offerings...

I was thinking about Telefunken EBU 3137/3 and was very attracted by nevistor front-end but studying circuit my advisers did not recommend me to do there as it was more primitively made machine compare to R&S. I never had it as result. I was not a big fun of Kenwood L-02T. The folks from FM Tuners made from it some kind of kitsch cult but in fact I feel that it was not good tuner that turned in absolute shit as soon PLL was activated in narrow mode. I did not heard the Rotel RHT-10 and also would like to heard the new Accuphase T1000. It is kind of sad, the US rep has none of them in stock, no trail program and no ability even to support conversation about FM and tuner intelligently. The tuner is 6K and to buy it blindly from a completely moron is not a good idea. I know that there is in Boston two Accuphase T1000 but I do not know those people. It would be very interning to hear what this Accuphase does.  Hey Bostonians, if you are one of the guys who have Accuphase T1000 then get in touch with me and I will try to make the acquaintance mutually beneficial.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
doug s.
Posts 6
Joined on 12-03-2008

Post #: 46
Post ID: 9086
Reply to: 9085
Misc tuna fishin'
fiogf49gjkf0d
romy, there is a tuna freak in los angeles who insists that the only way to get the best sound from the l-02t is to use kenwood's proprietary cabling.  i dunno, i have never tried one.  i have tried two earlier analog kenwoods; my experience is they need serious mods to sound good.  then, they really do sound quite good.

rick from allegro sound in los angeles:

http://www.allegrosound.com/

(rick, btw, bugs me every so often; he really wants to buy my rotel rht-10...  Wink )

i also noticed you mentioned the scott 310 earlier in this thread; i had two 310d's, supposedly the best of the 310's, and w/their outboard 335 mpx decoders, supposedly scott's best offerings, even better than the all-in-one stereo 310e.  that is, their best, except for the 4310, which i have never heard, and usually sells for quite a bit more than the marantz 10b.  anyways, one set of 310d/335 mpx's i owned was refurb'd and modded by foster blair, supposedly the best scott tech.  while it sounded nice, the combo didn't compare w/other wintage tubed tunas i have heard.  and, i have three more modern solid state mpx decoders that all sound better than the refurb'd 335, and a stock fisher mpx100 i also own.  if you want truly superb sound from a tubed tuna, get a sherwood s3000lll, iv, or v, preferably properly refurb'd.  the lll is usually mono, sometimes it has an onboard mpx added, but mostly not.  the iv & v are stereo.  (and the s2100-ll is an s3000v w/the addition of am.)  in any ewent, i have a never-serviced s3000lll mono, and a refurb'd s3000v; these sound as good as any tuna i have ever heard.  seriously.  (s3000lll used w/studio-12 decoder.)  they aren't as sensitive or selective as better solid state tunas, obviously, but still quite decent reception.  for equivalent sound but positively mediocre reception, try a stromberg carlson sr445 w/outboard mpx...  (or the more rare sr443, which is the half-chassis fm-only iteration.)  and, there's an interesting thread about someone who went crazy on a dynaco fm3 and says it's now better sounding than his tu-x1. i have one similarly modded, but not quite so extreme; i haven't given it a proper audition cuz its sensitivity is too poor for me to use it in my present difficult reception conditions, conditions that don't faze my sherwoods in the least... (i can't use my stromberg carlsons here, either...)

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f30/review-sansuitu-x1-dynaco-fm-3-leak-throughline-2-a-202931-print/

yes, it's a yob to conwert a japan spec tuna to usa-spec.  i can't remember exactly, but mr chow charged me ~$350 to do it, iirc.  he said "never again", but that was changing the dial-scale - he says it's not difficult to change out a tuna if you don't mind not having the dial scale correct!  Wink  he had also done the same conwersion and mods for me, w/an accuphase t109; this one was easier, cuz it inwolwed only swapping out a module to get the tuning right, but the difficulty was getting the module - accuphase is wery shitty when it comes to conwerting their gear; they refuse to sell the parts.  mr chow knows someone in japan who was able to sneak the module out in a larger order, but it took him almost a year to get it.  the modded t109, btw, was not as nice sounding as my hk 18 - its soundstage was slightly wider, but also shallower, not as tall, and the timbre and detail of the hk is better...  also, i am interested in what you think mr chow does that is not a good idea...

another excellent tuna worth seeking out is the aiwa at9700u - tho in stock form it is not quite up to my tu-x1, it's close, and it's an ergonomic pleasure to use.  it's another one i wanna send out for mods...

best,

doug s.
12-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 9088
Reply to: 9086
Replace all audio coupling...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Doug, it is a lot of tuner went over your hand. I wonder what drove you to do so.  Was any specific quality of sound that you were looking and the tuner that you own did not serve you?

 doug s. wrote:
romy, there is a tuna freak in los angeles who insists that the only way to get the best sound from the l-02t is to use kenwood's proprietary cabling.  i dunno, i have never tried one.  i have tried two earlier analog kenwoods; my experience is they need serious mods to sound good.  then, they really do sound quite good.

I am sorry to say it but this “freak in los angeles” is  a moron if he converts the sonic and performing characteristics of  L-02T only into the “Kenwood's proprietary cabling”. It is the same as the fools who power these amps with AC that has 20% of sinusoid distortion and claim that it might be “improved” if used a “better” power cord. I wionder why O so love all that crowd. Anyhow, I did have the Kenwood's proprietary cables with my L-02T

 doug s. wrote:
i am interested in what you think mr chow does that is not a good idea...

Looking juts at what he said at his site:

**** Replace all audio stage coupling capacitors with coupling grade Blackgate capacitors, which by enhancing the audio transfer efficiency enhance all aspects of the audio performance, especially more body to the lows and more airy highs.

It not necessary true.

*** Replace the power supply capacitors with larger, higher voltage, upgraded capacitors to insure better dynamic range and tighter, more controlled bass response.

And how higher voltage capacitors would “better dynamic range and tighter, more controlled bass response”?

*** Upgrade the existing grungy chrome RCA fixed outputs and skimpy wire with new gold plated Teflon RCA outputs and new high Q Teflon wire run from the new RCA’s to the PC Board).

Yes, the change of the RCAs is good thing but the right new RCA must be used. Good RCA are not sexy and they never used by the update people. The update people put in play the expense RCA with large mass of negative terminal and they are bad. A right RCA terminal shell not change the thickness of the wire that goes before and after. Most of the “expensive” audiophiles RCA jacks do. Changing the wire better might be a good thing but he did not mention other things hat need to be done with those output wires - this might me nerves.

*** Replace the audio stage Op Amp IC’s with Burr-Brown or equivalent, using a plug in socket so when improved Op Amp IC’s become available, the old ones can be removed and the new ones easily inserted. Improved Op Amp IC’s improves all aspects of the sonic performance.

Possibly. Still it shell be used very accurately.  Many of old time use vintage “slow-running” op-amps and nowadays the op-amps much faster. There are some designers who do prefer older slow amps and there is some merits in it. However,  to have the op-amps swappable is a good feature.

*** Check narrow and wide band IF filters. Replace if necessary. Often the filters in these units are of higher quality than many currently available filters, so they should not be replaced unless they are bad.

Does he converts ceramic filters into LC filter too?

*** Replace DC power supply rectifier diodes with High Speed Soft Recovery (FRED) Diodes because their fast response time, high current capability, soft recovery and lack of ringing and overshoot place them a big step beyond other high speed diodes in dramatically lowering noise, increasing dynamics, reducing grain and glare.

Not necessarily.  I had in many devises used ultra high speed and under 40mS recovery used and it is not always lead to sonic differences. In fact in SS tuners that uselessly run at low vantages there is no need to use FRED but Schottky, as are much more preferable as they have no “soft recovery” but no recovery at all. Intellectually the FREDs, Schottky or whatever make scene but in practical result it not necessarily affective. With one of my Rohde & Schwarz EU-6201 I did change the PS’s diode from 30-year old “crap” to the  contemporary soft-switching and then to Schottky. I recognize absolutely no sonic effect.

*** Raise up and isolate the transformer from the chassis if there is room in the chassis to do so. This will further reduce the noise level.  Check the lights.  Align the tuner. This is indispensable if the tuner is to perform up to its potential. Clean the exterior and interior of the tuner. Provide an itemized list of parts replaced, including a bag with the replaced wire and replaced parts.

That is all good. I would personally would like them to list the specific points they check during alignment as it would give more indication how serious they are.

*** Replace the 18 awg power cord with an IEC input, which permits us because of the ground, to isolate AC noise. If there is no room to install an IEC socket, a 16 awg upgraded grounded AC cord will be hard wired to the component.

That might be good but it has absolutely nothing to do with “isolation of AC noise”

*** Install a high grade AC line filter in line between the IEC input and the power supply to further reduce line noise.

I would call it controversial and use it very sparingly. Probably the ferrite “generic” filters is better then “high grade AC line filter”. Do they select the filter with respect to the given tuner load? I doubt.

*** Replace and upgrade the wire from the IEC to the Power supply PC Board with low noise, high Q wire. This will result in lower losses and better signal transfer across the entire bandwidth.

OK

*** Replace critical audio path wire with high Q wire and if necessary reroute.

The fact of rerouting is very important, I am glad he mentions it eventually.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 48
Post ID: 25710
Reply to: 9088
Oh wow!
Just incorporated this wonder into my system! haven't heard a live orchestra broadcast yet but even voices from the studio have something special, some magic aura.
This is how I use it:
- cleaned (down to dismantling all the switches) and calibrated by the local service specialist
- he didn't feel  to bypass the FA7 board completely but he soldered a bridge across the switch (previously cleaning it)
- I use outside 75R antenna, I installed on the roof - simple 167cm straight one; the radio emitter I'm interested in is about 3km straight line with almost no high buildings in between although all is in the city center.
- the signal I was receiving wasn't very strong at about 60dB (other stations were shooting up to 80dB) but in the stereo mode there was an audible distortion
- having read this thread (thanks Romy!) I installed 20dB antenna attenuator. Bingo! The noise was gone with a beautiful, full sound. I'd try even more attenuation but cannot find RF attenuators above 20dB. Anyone any ideas?
- the tuner has its original crappy 2 prong cable. I grounded it using the GND connector at the back (my amp is not grounded so this is the only grounding point and I prefer to have it)
- I've discovered a SHOCKING fact - Edison-type decorative bulbs emit RF rubbish Surprise Hard vacuum, filament bulbs! I could hear a gentle RF interference when they were on. This was my listening light...I change them now to modern incadescent bulbs. Here is some great info:  https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/rustika_lightbulb_fm_measurements.html

Any other advices on how to get max out of this baby (without going into to much mods like described above)?

Cheers, Jarek



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
12-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 25711
Reply to: 25710
Some special magic aura….
The quoted subject of this post describes the sound of this beast very well. Some commentary about your post.  
If you do have good stations in your region worth listening then you can do better than simple 167cm straight one. Better antenna, preferably polarized will get you better selectivity. You can try in room little directional antenna, they cost nothing and will help you to model the selectivity setting and you will be able to see if the station you care might be benefited. Belter selectivity would help you to deal with audible distortions in stereo mode. Also, try to get the signal/directions map in your location. There are some sites out there that can do it for you and it will help you to understand where the offending signals are coming from. 
 
If the antenna attenuator works for you then use it. Get better step attenuator, you can find them at eBay for virtually nothing. It is not the quality of attenuator that matters but an ability to get fixed and predictable amount attenuation that Radio Shake attenuators do not offered. You would know that a given station for a given weather condition and given time of the year would (leafs) need let say 5 clicks of attenuation. 
 
The grounding schematic is a complicated subject and it is hard to say anything over internet. You need to find in your very specific inhalation you own very specific grounding accommodation. 
 
Yes, some decorative bulbs do emit RF and it is well known problem. 
 
Regarding mode modes. Be very careful with it as we do not particularly know who this unit sound so humane. I did some modifications, like changing very shitty electrolytic coupling cap between the stages but then I undid the changes as I felt the sound got less interesting. It became more hi-fi but less compassionate. So, keep it as is. 
 
The biggest problem with this unit in my view is a presents of the station that worth to listening. 10 years ago I was in direct contact with broadcast engineers of my local station that did live BSO broadcast.  We all were trying to make sound better within the limit of cause as there are many obstacles that made it I hard to do or even impossible to be truly good. Frequently after the broadcast they asked me to share with them the recorded files and they would like to hear what sound the customers were getting.  Nowadays the culture of the station change very dramatically, my engineers are not there anymore and the sound I am getting from air is very despicable. So, the digital stream at 192Kbps I find to be more preferable and BSO does offer these broadcasts.  My local stations has some other interesting live broadcasts and sometime I can get them in 320Kbps. It is not that I am huge fun of digital streams but the FM in Boston is so despicable nowadays that I have no motivation to be bothered. Also, other station that had not live but very good programing is gone now (the main host got terminally sick and the programing went down). 
 
So, am not patrolling the Boston FM landscape anymore. Still, sometimes I do turn my tuner and listening news and I very much love the sound of this machine. Sometimes I am thinking to sell my tuner  as there is no use foe it anymore but something in me makes me do not do it….



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
doug s.
Posts 6
Joined on 12-03-2008

Post #: 50
Post ID: 25712
Reply to: 25711
Antennae attenuators and fm
hi all,

an option for an antenna attenuator is the magnum-dynalab signal sleuth.  this is something tha allows attenuation and amplification of fm signals +/-30db.  it's also tunable.  in most situations, its value is negligible, but in some situations it's useful.  n-set's situation sounds like one of them.  now, i'd not recommend to buy one new, as they frequently come up used, and it could be a costly addition if it's not doing it for you.  i'd also recommend waiting for an earlier iteration, as they're pretty much the same thing inside, and typically are quite a bit less expensive.  i picked one up for ~$50usd, just to have it, and try it w/different tuna, even tho i bought and sold a used modern iteration, for ~$225.  for >$200, i didn't think it worth keeping.  for $50, sure, why not?

this link shows what the modern iteration looks like:
http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html

here's a pic of an older one, like i have:
signal sleuth.jpg

regarding fm in general, i feel romy's pain.  there's only 2-3 stations in my area that are worth anything, and they've become a bit hit or miss.  i have a slew of tuna that i should sell, including my tu-x1.  and i am also now listening to a lot of internet radio.  i've found that a decent quality internet tuna that has digital out, allowing the feed to go to a quality dac, provides really quite nice sound.  and there's a slew of good internet radio w/quality signal, for many different tastes and genre's:
http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html

personally, i really like fip-france's non-genre-specific feed.  to say it's eclectic is like saying einstein was sort of smart...

doug s.
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