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04-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 4290
Reply to: 4241
pulse tube
With this tube I would think cathode emission limits lifetime.  Stepping back a moment, I'm guessing this tube is designed for radar operation.  Maybe in an aircraft.  The spec sheet definately talks only about pulse mode of operation.  Maybe it was a driver for a pulse radar transmitter?  What this means to me is that there are some sacrifices made in the tube.  It has a very limited maximum average power dissipation.  This had to be done in order to keep the structure small enough that it would operate at the desired RF frequencies.  It has very high pulse current capability, so the cathode must have extremely high emission, or plate gets starved and curves fall over.

So I have an idea.  For class A operation, the cathode emission is way too high.  We cannot run at the high peak currents because the plate will melt.  Or at least overheat and cause secondary emission problems, glow, etc.  Therefore, I suggest starving the filament.  Let's think about running this tube with 5V heater.  I'll run some sweeps to see what happens to the curves.  I think adapting the tube from pulse operation to continuous mode is no problem.  The lower emission is still enough for our needs, and it has the side benefit of greatly increasing lifetime.

Most importantly, I think we have to keep the plate dissipation way down, like 6W or so.  Cannot let the G2 get too hot. 

I like the direction you are headed.  This tube will sound better and more natural than the 6C33.  But might lack "authority".

jh
04-29-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 4291
Reply to: 4241
The 6E5P-E vs 6E5P.

 hagtech wrote:
Stepping back a moment, I'm guessing this tube is designed for radar operation.  Maybe in an aircraft.  The spec sheet definately talks only about pulse mode of operation.  Maybe it was a driver for a pulse radar transmitter?  What this means to me is that there are some sacrifices made in the tube.  It has a very limited maximum average power dissipation.  This had to be done in order to keep the structure small enough that it would operate at the desired RF frequencies.  It has very high pulse current capability, so the cathode must have extremely high emission, or plate gets starved and curves fall over.

Jim, I think you look at different datasheet. The 6E5P never meant to be used for pulse operation. The Datasheet said that it was designed for broadband amplification of HF.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/6E5P.pdf

The 6E5P was use in railway radios transmitters, in portable SW radio stations, in some consumer radios in 60s and reportedly in TV applications. The 6E5P did have a version specialty dedicated for impulse operation. It called 6E5P-E. It has visibly the same constriction but extra short balloon:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/6E5P-E.pdf

A few years ago I foolishly bought 100 of them (I think I paid 8c per tube) and they turned out to be VERY different sonically then the 6E5P and I found them unusable (about which I warned in the Melquiades article). BTW, you might see them on the picture:

The number 2 on the left in the first row is the 6E5P-E. The number 4 on the left in the first row is a normal 6E5P.

 hagtech wrote:
  So I have an idea.  For class A operation, the cathode emission is way too high.  We cannot run at the high peak currents because the plate will melt.  Or at least overheat and cause secondary emission problems, glow, etc.  Therefore, I suggest starving the filament.  Let's think about running this tube with 5V heater.  I'll run some sweeps to see what happens to the curves.  I think adapting the tube from pulse operation to continuous mode is no problem.  The lower emission is still enough for our needs, and it has the side benefit of greatly increasing lifetime.

Well, sine there is not need to fight with impulse mode I do not think it is the problem. However, the idea to starve filaments I very interesting. For LF horns I would need the full 6.wW on plate but for HF horns I need a fraction of watt and I might drop the heater voalsh, prolonging the tube lives. I will also make some Dima’s voltage vs. current tests (BTW, I found it VERY cool approach) with lover heater voltages.

 hagtech wrote:
  Most importantly, I think we have to keep the plate dissipation way down, like 6W or so.  Cannot let the G2 get too hot.

In my experiment I would say that up to 6.8W it behaved reasonably and more or less proportionally increase power with inverse voltage. I have to note that went I drove my 109dB upper bass horn with minus 10dB digital off my 5V DACK at 13:1 and having 6.6W on 6E5P’s plate then I took a think blanket and patched the mouth of my horns because it sounded louder then civil defense bombing alarm. I presumed that it offset the horns resonant frequency quite aggressively but it was the only way to test it under the live condition. With a “tampon” in the mouth that horn would be too violent to be with it in the same room.

 hagtech wrote:
  I like the direction you are headed.  This tube will sound better and more natural than the 6C33.  But might lack "authority".

Well with 109dB sensitively there are very many rational to go into the direction I ma going… how it will manifest itself in Sound I have no idea. I personally less care about “lack of authority". It is 109dB and I need just 0.7 V to pump into my speaker to get listening level. I more concern about ability of this single tube (and it is VERY fast tube) to play “slow” and produce the necessary “acoustic like” and “dynamically viscose” harmonic pattern. It did it with two stages but I do not know if it will with single stage. The individual channel looked like sound fine but how it will be in context of the whole installation only God knows…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 4294
Reply to: 4291
input voltage
For a single driver, looks to me like you need an input signal of at least 3Vrms.  A lot of linestages can do that, so a single tube power amp seems both reasonable and interesting.  Yes, I was looking at wrong data sheet. 

You know, for somebody just taking a snapshot of a bunch of tubes for a forum post - it's really quite good.  Has that Ansel Adam's look.  I'd swear you used film.

jh
04-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 4295
Reply to: 4294
The little Melquiades, the pictures and the illusive transformer core…

 hagtech wrote:
For a single driver, looks to me like you need an input signal of at least 3Vrms.  A lot of linestages can do that, so a single tube power amp seems both reasonable and interesting.

What actually I discovered the last week makes me VERY enthusiastic. I usually drive my horns with under 1V that… make it possible to drive then with …. preamp. Sure it doe not pump a lot of current but still it is possible sine I need no bass and no electric cones damping. Anyhow, I was experimenting with the single-stage Milq (the full gazed version not the prototype) and ended up trying with my Denon D30 mini-system. As I told before the D30 is amazing crap but still I have a bunch of small monitors that the D30’s 22W amps drives… So, I took the D30 headphone output and drove with it the single-stage Melquiades. To my great surprise the result was nothing short of stunning – I absolutely did not expect it. Sure it was not able to drive it with a lot power – increase of volume sent Sound to ugly clipping but at very low volume the Milq absolutely overridden the D30’s sound making it to sound very large, VERY dynamic (…and it is with the Celestion SL-600!!!!), surprisingly colorful and very inversing…. I was very pleased and puzzled with this effect….

BTW, Jim (and others) I have difficulties to source the necessary transformers for HF channels of single-stage Melquiades. Do you know any sources that sell the amorphous core for transformers in small quantities?

 hagtech wrote:
You know, for somebody just taking a snapshot of a bunch of tubes for a forum post - it's really quite good.  Has that Ansel Adam's look.  I'd swear you used film.

Not really it was an old image that I took from the bottom of the Melquiades pages.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Melquiades.aspx


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 4300
Reply to: 4295
Amorphous cores for Melquiades spud amp
Hi Romy,
I dunno if you mean the C-core materials itself or the completed transformers... if the former (perhaps a poor term in this context), then
http://www.elnamagnetics.com
have what you are looking for.
Seach for AMCC - these are the Metglas C-cores you are after...

Also, if you are able to limit the LF before the power stage, I would very strongly suggest trying a custom OPT from Sowter in the UK on a 100% mumetal EI core for the S2.... expensive but something magical about the sound.

If we agree on the spec beforehand, we may even be able to come to an arrangement where I purchase them from you if you don't like them so you're not risking much. Feel free to PM me if you are interested.

Best,
cv
04-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 4301
Reply to: 4300
The core materials, the problems and the solutions...

 cv wrote:
Hi Romy, I dunno if you mean the C-core materials itself or the completed transformers... if the former (perhaps a poor term in this context), then http://www.elnamagnetics.com have what you are looking for. Seach for AMCC - these are the Metglas C-cores you are after...

Well, Bud do not mind to wind HF transformer if e find an interesting raw core… I hardly doubt I will find anywhere a ready to go transformer with my custom DSET HF specifications…

 cv wrote:
Also, if you are able to limit the LF before the power stage,

Well this it VERY big subject. As you remember in two stages Milq I was not able to high pass the amps at line level as it created very wrong sound. I have a number of hypnotizes about the resume and the single stage amp would be a good playgroup to try it. I do intend to high pass it if I could. There is a great chance that in the two stages Melquiades the high pass was not possible die to the application in the given topology. I spent a LOT of time to experiment with it.

 cv wrote:
I would very strongly suggest trying a custom OPT from Sowter in the UK on a 100% mumetal EI core for the S2.... expensive but something magical about the sound.

Chris, can you point to the specific model of the Sowters OPT?

 cv wrote:
If we agree on the spec beforehand, we may even be able to come to an arrangement where I purchase them from you if you don't like them so you're not risking much. Feel free to PM me if you are interested.

Point out the exact model. It is not about the price but rather about the quality of result. I would rather have Bud’s, Lundahl and Sowter transformers for S2 in order to see which will work better. Interesting is that I feel that the S2 channel will be the most prominent transformer in the amp… the only concern I have that my experience with amorphous core is very positive and I afraid that I will not have the dynamics and the “harmonics not affected speed” with any none-amorphous lamination… BTW, if you propose to “agree on the specs” then does it mean that you will be trying the single stage Milq


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 4302
Reply to: 4301
eliano
I think Jack Eliano of Electraprint can custom wind something for you.  Or maybe Mike at Magnequest.  At under 5W, the core does not need to be very big, so cost of exotic materials go down and bandwidth and magnetic coupling go up.

jh
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 33
Post ID: 4303
Reply to: 4301
Sowter
I use Sowter model 9550 for my treble horns. (Changing over to these was the biggest single improvement I've ever made). Brain is very good to deal with and will make anything to your specs. He has huge experiance with OPT design.

Oneday I want to compare my sowters with the (amorphous) Lundahl LL9206 at 20:1 in a parafeed arrangement, with an air-core choke. Could be interesting...


cheers,

op.9



everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 34
Post ID: 4304
Reply to: 4302
Transformer hunt continued
Romy,

I have contacted Automatic Electric (AE Europe in the Netherlands) requesting a quote for transformers meeting your specs. The AE site says they can do custom amorphous core transformers to spec. Currently waiting for a reply. I will post the info as soon as I have it.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Ronnie
Stockholm
Posts 81
Joined on 06-30-2005

Post #: 35
Post ID: 4306
Reply to: 4304
AE Anniversary

jd: I'm celebrating the 1 year anniversary of my order for custom transformers from AE Europe.
It suits me fine that they haven't delivered (because I don't have the $ now), but you may want to be ...less than overly optimistic.

I don't know about the waiting time with Tribute transformers.
Perhaps Dave Slagle (www.intactaudio.com) could do the job?

05-01-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 4307
Reply to: 4304
Some thoughts about transformer for my MF channel.

First of all thanks to all who assist me with this project, including those who did not post here.

Jim, Electraprinted Jack is great guy but he does not believe in exotic cores, very unfortunate because I like to deal with him.

Jessie, you are right I did forget the AE Europe source. It would be interesting what they say. BTW, I would need all secondary sections all go outside with marked polarity….….

op.9, could you in term of subjective impressions and associations describe what your Sowter did with the Sound of you treble horns?

Still, without exclusion of all other opportunities, I would like Bud to bid with his transformer wounded around an amorphous stick or amorphous bagel…

Anyhow, I would like to share some my concerns about the transformers for Vitavox S2 channel. A common thinking about famous transformer would not be really applicable in my case as I did not see anyone judge transformer in context of DSET use. Within a very low power, within very small size and within a very limited frequency range it would not be difficult to make a very good transformer but then the question would be: how to make it to sound in a seatrain way. This is the zone in wish I have absolutely no experience which buttons to push and no knowledge what ingredients to mix. I less case about the transformer for tweeter channels – there is not a lot of sound there but with the midrange with S2 driver the transformer in this project would be a very interesting subject.

Let me I explain my objective for this transformer. In my mind  (the mind of user bit the designer) in this transformer should be 4 entities that should be properly balanced:

1) Harmonics
2) Speed
3) Dynamics
4) Connectivity

HARMONICS is hardly the properties of the transformer itself but rather the plate loading via transformer. So the secondary sections should be stuck out allowing remapping the sections on fly. Still, read about the “speed”.

SPEED should be maximum possible. However it is a different speed then juts unloading the tube, striping the harmonic tails and converting SET into the crappy OTL sound. Usually in “betters” SETs the output stage loaded slightly les and it create the feeling of speed. I do not like it. Along with this “speed acceleration” the sounds slightly flatten the parabola with which the notes roll it their pitches. As the results it create slightly “flat” (musically) sound. The speed that I am taking about should not interfere with harmonic pattern. It should be maximum speed of exchange of information but it should be absolutely indifferent to harmonics. Still, read about the “dynamics”

DYNAMICS should at it max as well but there is more to it. The speed of information exchange should be identical (or different) at different dynamic ranges. I do not know if at minus 60dB the speed of information exchange should be identical to the minus 20dB. It might be that it should have own speed deviation… However, when it sounds I know that it is wrong when it sounds wrong.  Some transformers do change the speed of information exchange at different dynamic ranges but they do it according to wrong algorithms. I do not know what the right algorithms are: I am not in the business of design the things but in the business of bitching about others. Anyhow, for my transformer I would like it to be able to have own dynamic intelligence and know what speed to demonstrate at wish dynamic level, still keeping the dynamic window as wide as possible. Still, read about the “connectively”.

CONNECTIVITY – this is the key. The connectively is something that differentiate a right transformer from anything else. What is important also that a good transformer should have absolutely maximum connectivity with absolutely maximum speed and dynamics. So, what the connectively is all about? The connectively is the association between the events that being transmitted via a transformer. The individuals sounds, properly harmonically structured at this max speed and with no compression it not enough. In music notes have inferred references to other notes and even if to virtually cut out of music the referred notes (along with their harmonists) then the referencing notes still will imply the removed notes. Bad transformers have no speed and no dynamics but if the bad transformers do have speed and dynamics (with correct harmonics) then they have no connectively between the notes. With bad transformers sound feel like a porcupine’s back with a zillion individuals needles stick out of Sound and each needle do not know about the sharpness of other needles. In a good transformer each needle of event (would it be a note or a pause) are kind of managed by one mind, the same mind that manages the speed and dynamics. Also it is very important that the connectively should not be loosing itself at high and low dynamic levels… In a way a transformer in it’s connectively should be more like Michelangeli play….

Well, I would love to tell you that I know HOW to do it but I do not know. The only one transformer that I have seen that had the absolute maximin of connectively, speed and superbly smart dynamics were the Expressive Technology transformers. Well, it would be very interesting to find the transformer for my S2 channels that would be able to do the same. It looks like that within a limited bandwidth the task should not be  too difficult…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 4308
Reply to: 4306
LF limit in single stage and Sowter mumetal cores
Hi Romy,

Agreed about the S2 transformer being the most prominent  it is here I think that mumetal will shine. I should have said that I was referring to the upper S2 covering 1k-12k or so.

I wasn't too clear earlier - when I suggested rolling off LF for the S2, I didn't mean at the x/o frequency. I was thinking more around 200Hz or so. This will ease the work of the single stage melq and on the mumetal, which can't handle the flux that comes with LF. It may be difficult to get 2W at 500Hz with the biggest core Sowter can do.

Actually, that applies to the usage of all small core transformers - you must limit LF before the output stage or risk saturating the core; even if the speakeror OPT doesn't see any LF power, it's the voltage swing on the primary that determines the core flux.

The exact Sowter model I used was custom but all of Sowters stuff is in a way. Just need to spec out the Lpr, turns ratio, dc current and power at given frequency and if possible they will build it at no extra cost to the "standard" models.

Alas I have no time these next coulple months to build anything but would like to try it out when my horns are eventually delivered.

My concerns in giving the mumetal an unequivocal recommendation is not that you may simply prefer amorphous, but rather that it could sound rather different to amorphous (esp. with the lower S2 driven by amorph).... hence my offer to purchase them from you if unsuccessful. That mumetal core material is getting more expensive and difficult to get hold of. I can use the OPTs for a 6e5p spud or I can always use a diffeent bobbin with the laminations and restack them for a different application!

The issue I had with my mumetal OPTs is very noticeable magnetostriction - core singing along with the music. But they had a rather larger airgap which wouldn't have helped.

Anyway, the offer stands - if you'd like to try them at cv's risk, just let me know the spec and I can optimise with Brian.

Also bear in mind that the winding geometry and materials affect tone. To my mind, the masters here are Pieter from Tribute and Dave Slagle, both of whom build wonderful transformers. Bud has some fascinating ideas but I have not been lucky enough to hear his ironware yet.

regards
cv


05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 4309
Reply to: 4308
The Sowter’s mumetal transformers for Milq?

Chris,

I head a lot a lot of good thing about Pieter from Tribute and I would like to recruit him for the s2 transformer. We send last week to him an email and he did not reply. I heard from many other people that it is a very typical for his communication pattern. So, it dificalt if he is not accessable to communicative? I do not know also how Bud’s amorphous transformer would be, I do not think he knows either but he is not only accessable but also abuseable. :-) since I have very limited ides what I need technically it is very important to me that someone could listen all my "verbiage" and in his mind to convert it into the implementable specifications...

Anyhow, I if you feel that it worth try then I do not mind to try the Sowter’s mumetal transformers. I was also thinking about the 200Hz from bottom, 50mA gap. Let presume that I WILL BE ABLE to high-pass it at line level and that the MF stage will NOT handle the full range signal. Then the key would be to have the minimal amount of turns in primary, preserving best coupling with objectives to serve the necessary ratio (since we have no heavy inductance demands). About the ratio. I would like to have 12:1 with half-&-half. It means that all secondary sections should go outside to some kind of mapping board and if I connect half of then in serial and half of them in parallel then I would like to get in this setting 12:1. Fell free to convert what I meant to say into a format that would be more comprehendible for the Sowter guy. Feel free also to suggest what I am thinking wrong.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 4310
Reply to: 4309
Sowter spec for mumetal OPTs: iteration 1

Allo

Pieter is super-talented and a great guy; if you are a Larry David fan he looks a bit like his Dutch cousin...

The only problem is that he has a long waiting list... I don't think you would get the OPTs any time soon.

If we will try Sowters then I would suggest:

Primary inductance of about 2H, for use above 1kHz.

Turns ratio of 12:1 would give you a 2.4k load with 16 ohm secondary.

With a gap of 50mA, I reckon on the order of 1-2W may be possible at 500Hz - let's see what Brian thinks once spec is complete. Not sure the biggest mumetal core they have will handle much more.

As for secondary configuration, if you don't need the facility to play with taps, you are generally better off without all the connection options as you don't have to re-terminate all the secondary options. (The secondary will always need to be sectioned internally). If you do have taps, it's vital to use the entire secondary or else the tx is suboptimal.
Sowter have a range of options, scroll down at:

http://www.sowter.co.uk/2se.htm

So you pick any option except the "tapped" one! I don't understand why you want to insist on half series/half parallel connections when internally, the secondary is made of more than 4 sections? Just because the "mapping board" has 4 sections coming out of the tx...

Anyway, I will email Brian and see what he reckons.
cv

05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 4311
Reply to: 4310
I think we spoke about it in past

I would defiantly avoid any taps by any cost, regresses how “advanced” they are implemented. On the page that you referred the first configuration, with secondary sections sticking outside, looks like a reasonable to me.

Yes, the 2.4k to 3.0K load with 16 ohm secondary would be fine but only in the middle of that first configuration. I would like to have at least one, one a half kOhms up and down. As I undusted the re-termination and remapping of secondary does not affect sound in any way.

One of the reasons why I do not know where to lend because I do not know what kind “contrast” Brian’s transformer will give. If case of “contrasty” sound it would be nice to drop I would say 500R and to load the tube slightly harder. It is really does not cost money and do not affect sound. So, why not to have this option…

BTW, Chriss I have two questions,. What will be the range of the prices for this MF transformer and what you thoughts I might do for HF channel transformer (>12K and up). I think we spoke about it in past:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=634#634

Rgs,
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 4313
Reply to: 4307
Words for the Lundahl amorphous
Romy, my experience with the Lundahl amorphous core transformenrs is limited to my new phono stage, and I have have been dealing other issues enough that I am not ready to write much about it yet.

Still, there are qualities worth noting that I am fairly certain accrue to the amorphous core transformer, based both on my own experience with transformers in general and your recent observations.

One thing I noticed right away was a certain "image density", not unlike the ML2.  This is not purely "topological", but almost certainly transformer-related, and I will get into reasons why later.  Another interesting quality is absolutely unflappable dynamics, with no hint of saturation, and no harmonic shifting, compression, smearing, or thinning with speed, SPL or  complexity; in other words, pretty much what you said.

I think Kevin Carter at K&K Audio, in North Carolina, represents Lundahl in the US, and he MAY have enough pull with them to get you what you want (if you don't call him up and insult him ;>}).

The North American S&B guy is John Chapman, the "transformer guy" at Bent Audio (where all problems are solved with transformers...), but I don't know if they do amorphous cores.

I never thought much about the idea of amorphous cores, but using them has been interesting enough so far to warrant continuing in that direction, I think, if only to further isolate and develop the qualities it presently appears they contribute.

Best regards,
Paul S
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 4314
Reply to: 4311
Sowter mumetal and RAAL tx options

I sent an email to Brian asking... also about how far down in frequency their largest mumetal core could go.

I see why you want those tap options now - essentially you want to be able to load down the 6e5p but still use all the secondary sections. There may be some frequency response variations in the ultrasonic range by playing the tap game, but it shouldn't make all that much difference to what you hear.

A while ago, prices were of the order of GBP 100 each for the mumetal OPTs. Assuming they haven't changed much, that's about $400 plus carriage/import duty etc for the pair.

For the HF channel transformer; well, air core would be big, with very high capacitances. You really want a very low Z tube to drive an aircore.

However, something has occurred to me. The RAAL already has a matching transformer on a small core to which you are cap-coupling; I wonder if Aleks might wind something with a much higher turns ratio and cap couple directly to the 6E5p anode on the S2 amp. Fly in the ointment: he would need to ensure the insulation between windings could handle 400+v. Where the RAAL takes over, the inductance of the S2 should be high enough so the 6E5 isn't loaded down too much.

Having said that, do you know what the DCR of the ribbon element is? I have a pair of 90:1 aircores in London designed for driving raw ribbons direct from a SET... there would be some rolloff at 20kHz, but would well be worth trying if I can get hold of them in the next few months...

05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 4315
Reply to: 4313
It is exactly why I’m looking amorphous chunk for Bud….

 Paul S wrote:
One thing I noticed right away was a certain "image density", not unlike the ML2.

This is very interesting subject. I do not know what core the ML2.0 used but I would like to have ML2 a little bit  “amorphousised”…. To me it one of the things that I feel the ML2 was missing – it has dynamically limited and was able to play wild and violent when Music is called upon. It was in was over polite and overly gracious. Mostly it was desirable but when the opposite was vital then ML2 faced it’s limitations.

 Paul S wrote:
Another interesting quality is absolutely unflappable dynamics, with no hint of saturation, and no harmonic shifting, compression, smearing, or thinning with speed, SPL or  complexity; in other words, pretty much what you said.

I do not know how about the “harmonic shifting” – I have no way to assess it. also I do not know how about the saturation  it is not the property of the core maters but other things also with the core materials. However but in terms of dynamics, speed and ability to do go apart at SPL max the amorphous core that I have seen are so farther then regular steal that I feel that any person who ever touched a amorphous core transformer would hardly look back to regular silicon still. This is what I try to drag Bad from the world of the silicon misery to the realms of the amorphous nirvana.. :-) OK, not he also hates me… :-)


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 4316
Reply to: 4314
Alex and the plate-trans-ribbon interface...

 cv wrote:
I see why you want those tap options now - essentially you want to be able to load down the 6e5p but still use all the secondary sections. There may be some frequency response variations in the ultrasonic range by playing the tap game, but it shouldn't make all that much difference to what you hear.

Actually it is important to name properly- it is not the taps but just different connection of sections. I do not like taps and I would not go for it under any circumstances. Also, Chirrs, may I ask you subjectively what you feel is special in the Mumetal core Sound, besides the fact that the core “sings” loudly.  BTW, doe the Sofwter make amorphous core transformers?

 cv wrote:
However, something has occurred to me. The RAAL already has a matching transformer on a small core to which you are cap-coupling; I wonder if Aleks might wind something with a much higher turns ratio and cap couple directly to the 6E5p anode on the S2 amp. Fly in the ointment: he would need to ensure the insulation between windings could handle 400+v. Where the RAAL takes over, the inductance of the S2 should be high enough so the 6E5 isn't loaded down too much.

Having said that, do you know what the DCR of the ribbon element is? I have a pair of 90:1 aircores in London designed for driving raw ribbons direct from a SET... there would be some rolloff at 20kHz, but would well be worth trying if I can get hold of them in the next few months...

I certainly considered it and spoke with Alex. Since the amps will be sitting 10” from tweeter then the secondary will not have too high impedance. Alex is wiling to take this project but he needs to do some research and some thinking and he dose not know what might be an ultimate solution. I am planning to send him the amp (a tube with two resistors!!!) and let thin to think himself.  If he come up with one transformer (powder or amorphous) for HF channel then would serve his tweeter the bets then would be it. I like the fact that Alex will be able to think about the problem not in scope of juts a transformer but in composite scope of the entire plate-trans-ribbon interface…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 45
Post ID: 4317
Reply to: 4315
The harmonic "rubber band", etc.
One thing I have noticed a lot with gear that "aspires" is a ""rubber band" harmonic effect, with +/- higher or lower harmonics in preponderance as the dynamics/complexity changes.  There is also the effect where the [amp] just starts to short change harmonics, or it focuses on its "preferred" harmonics rather than offering the whole consistantly.  By "smearing", I mean a sort of indistinct patchy-ness with respect to harmonic [re]prodiuction.  By "saturation", I mean ("correct" or not) that things simply fog in and run out of gain, generally at the ends first, but then the whole thing.  The amorphous core is more "stable", IMO, or at least it is more consistent.  At this point I don't know how to directly compare the transformer-specific pure dynamics of the "amorphous core" phono stage and the ML2s.

Best regards,
Paul S
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 4318
Reply to: 4316
mumetal OPT sound
Sowter doesn't offer amorphous, though I believe Brian was looking into it a while ago.

As for the sound of the mumetal core...well, let me preface this by saying that I have not directly compared amorphous to mumetal, but it sounded - how to put this - imagine, if you can, if Tolkien's Elves made the S2. The sounds were very ethereal, refined and the music seemed to just hang in air - reminiscent of real-life string sections in a way.

Dunno if this helps?!

cv


05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 47
Post ID: 4319
Reply to: 4318
sowter mumetal impressions
Like cv, I've not directly compared mumetal to amorphous in an OPT position. However, my hunch is that the sonic attributes are the same as those found at line level (I've tried various Xformers as the IV/output stage in my Rakk Dac).

I now run my 'tweeter' amp 1st order high pass at 2200hz (driving BMS 4540nd in 1500hz leCleach horn) so my impressions might have some bearing on Romy's new amps. I was playing around with operating points and components in my single 5842 amp when the sowter mumetals arrived. Immediately all my energy went into listening to music again. First impression were of real power and grip! A sort of palpable sound - always my holy grail (maybe this is analogous to romy's 'connectivity'?) My BMS4540nd drivers had never sounded like this before - it has taken a few months to realise quite how good they are. Only later did I notice a huge increase in delicacy and detail. Its not a 'flashy' sound at all, in fact now I'm happy to take my tweeter amp for granted, and forget about it.

Interestingly, I was using a single 5842 for a long while until I realised that I didn't have enough system gain. Now I'm using a 5842 RC driving an EL84 triode-connected and I have to say that 98% of all the good things about the 5842 are in control of the amp. The 2% EL84 adds a nice 'sexy shimmer'  to the sound. I'm not at all surprised that the Milq's driver stage sounds so close to the original and I'm very interested to see if a fully optimised single-stage could outdo the full Milq. . .

best
op.9


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 4320
Reply to: 4319
Another single stage amp...
 op.9 wrote:
I now run my 'tweeter' amp 1st order high pass at 2200hz (driving BMS 4540nd in 1500hz leCleach horn) so my impressions might have some bearing on Romy's new amps. I was playing around with operating points and components in my single 5842 amp when the sowter mumetals arrived. Immediately all my energy went into listening to music again. First impression were of real power and grip! A sort of palpable sound - always my holy grail (maybe this is analogous to romy's 'connectivity'?) My BMS4540 nd drivers had never sounded like this before - it has taken a few months to realise quite how good they are. Only later did I notice a huge increase in delicacy and detail. Its not a 'flashy' sound at all, in fact now I'm happy to take my tweeter amp for granted, and forget about it. Interestingly, I was using a single 5842 for a long while until I realised that I didn't have enough system gain. Now I'm using a 5842 RC driving an EL84 triode-connected and I have to say that 98% of all the good things about the 5842 are in control of the amp. The 2% EL84 adds a nice 'sexy shimmer' to the sound. I'm not at all surprised that the Milq's driver stage sounds so close to the original and I'm very interested to see if a fully optimised single-stage could outdo the full Milq. . .
Interesting comments about the Sowter MuMetal, I will consider them. Yes, with your high-passed BMS4540 you are in the same boat as me. Even more interesting in context of what I am trying to do now were your attempts to use a single stage amp to drive your HF horn. BTW, the low power 5842 with it’s 1.3V of bias and no feedback is not the best choice for power amp’ input as (as I understand) to drive the tube to the reasonable volume your input voltage will be larger then bias voltage.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,537
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 4321
Reply to: 4241
Another consideration for single-stage Milq: minimal capacitance

Another consideration where I am planning to make the single-stage Milq different will be the power supply for the thing.  The amp will have my typical SS fast-soft rectification with mandatory “gentle enter” LCRC filter, however I consider it to make it different from where I was before.

Usually I have quadruple (or more) inductance of critical inductance followed with a very small cap, then a decoupling resistor and as big ass last cap as I can get. In the regular full range Milq I use 10.000-15.000uF and it dose job. It is not juts about the ripples – they are irrelevant with this capacitance, but rather is it very beneficial for bass to have a huge capacitance tank.

However, I also noted that a large capacitance in PS’s filters make HF harder and less “connected” (red my post: http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4307). So, my thought is to keep the PS capacities as low as possible for HF channels. From my two stage Milq experience I know that the amps has no nose at 620uF, so I am wiling to keep slightly above this level (probably 1000uF) and to go higher only for the upper bass channel. Frankly speaking I do not care about ripples as I do not see any relations between their size and quality of sound. I also did not see that the presents of theoretical un-auditable LF hum in any way modulate something auditable in auditable range. However, the minimum capacitate for HF channels I feel is very beneficial for space and “connectivity”…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 50
Post ID: 4324
Reply to: 4321
minimum capacitate for HF channels...
I chanced upon an interesting PSU arrangement for my 5842. I run a valve regulated powersupply at 210v and then drop down to 160v with an un-bypassed 8uf oilcap. Any more capacitance or bypasses seemed to be a step backwards in terms of pleasure. A nice side-effect of the regulator is much more consistency of sound from day to day. (I run my 5842 with a 2v lead acid cell in place of a cathode resistor)
best
op.9





everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
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