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06-18-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 4627
Reply to: 4620
Taking out the nieghbor's garbage

Romy,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Very interesting your idea to take 110v from half the secondary straight off the pole... I am trying to confirm with the electric company that this might be possible... Otherwise I've got some climbing gear and a volt meter...

Thinking in another direction : 

Is there a rapport between the step-down factor (turns ratio) and the passage of garbage via induction? For example, does a large turns ratio filter out more or less of the nasties?

I know transformers can alter the way our equipment produces sound, but we do accept big crude step-down transformers outside the house all the time... Step-down transformers at the substation are shared by an entire town, and the transformer up on that pole outside your house is shared by several neighbors.

I wonder how far we could get from the nastiness of the grid by simply using a private multi-stage chain of (like 5) large de-coupling transformers followed by good filtration and possibly an AC oscillator...???

Back to Eurovolts :

As mentioned in my previous post, we Euro audio users (slight cringe there!) are dealing with a lower oscillating frequency (50Hz) than in the US… What I did not mention is that due to the higher 230v, we also accept more peak-to-peak amplitude. About twice the amplitude in fact. Combine this with the 16.5% slower cycling, and we are giving our equipment a bumpier ride.

Is this a good enough reason to supply audio equipment with 110v/60Hz? I don't know, but (all other parameters being equal) I have yet to be solicited for the sprinkling of a visitor's ashes on this floor (I did once make such a promise to a musician visitor back in the US).
 
Regarding my planned experiment mentioned in the above post (supplying the P1200 with a balanced 220v mains supply, by using a pair of hefty step-down 220v to 110v input transformers) : I need to think more about this, and about the relative phase of each of the two sines as delivered by the pair of input transformers.

Regarding PaulMC :

Where the Euro-spec P300 had a special output transformer, I suspect the Euro-spec P1200 used a special input transformer to step down the input voltage to 110v. This is confirmed by the fact that on the 220v settnig, my US model P1200 will not accept European 220v if it is all coming in on one leg (immediately causes the circuit breaker to trip). It will however accept 220v if supplied as is the case in the US, where it is divided between the two legs (see previous post for my interpretation of the 220v switch on the P1200).


jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-18-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 4628
Reply to: 4627
Not the RTD but still it should be good.

BTW, Jessie,

I have another solution for you if you have some extra space and… distance….. It is what I will do after I became a boring US suburban habitant… (BTW, it is not my RTD invention (Real Time Decupling) that implied in the mid of the thread – that invention is still “deeply classified”… :-)

So, what you might try is to get 5kW AC generator. They are not really large; it will be approximately 20-30” long. You might see one on the picture:

http://www.northern-lights.com/PDFs/brochure_pdfs/M673LD2.pdf

The generator is the cylindrical object of the 1/3 size on the left (you do not need a motor). There is a large availability of all kind of AC generators, and they cost from a couple to a few hundreds dollars at many surpass stores.

Then direct couple the generator with any AC motor. Running the motor from your dirty AC power lines you will be spinning the generators and take from the generators absolutely physically decoupled electricity, free from any problems of the grid (noise, distorts and so on). You might very easily stabilize the rotations of the AC motor and by planning with the modes (load, rotation, stator magnetizing force, frequency and etc) of the generator you might tune a perfect sound for your given setup. The beauty of this solution that sine you found it one it will NEVER change as you are not at mercy to anything that happens in the power grid.

Be advised that the good contemporary generators and motors have near 95% efficiency and they are really quiet nowadays…. Still I would pit the thing somewhere in a dog hour or in a basement…. You might go even for small 1-2KW generators… Perhaps the will do fine as well…

If I was in the audio business then I would no doubt try to make in China some kind quiet running devise, size of the P600, that would mechanically regenerate the REAL NEW clear power....

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 4631
Reply to: 4507
The APS PurePower 1050 regenerator: the honeymoon night.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
One of the things that solicited me to try the APS unit was the assurance of the APS guy (Richard) that what I run ASP unit from internal battery + regeneration vs. the plugged in wall + regeneration ….I should hear no difference in Sound. From what he said I can make ONE of the following concussions:

1)The APS unit is the real God-send thing the does properly decouples the load from the mains.
2)The APS unit produces so much crapy noise in the regeneration mode that it overrides the nose of the bad mains
3)The APS guys who tried if are deaf or are clueless what to listen while they are listening
4)The APS guy juts lie.

Well, will see what happens….
People who know me know that each year, staring from May, I take the subject of bad sounding electricity personally. So, each year in beginning of the summer I commit myself into a new round of celebration of my stupid optimism over Reality and drug home a new power line gismo. The gismos usually loosing the battle with sound and I, keeping bitching to the end of November when the electricity regularly become better, continue to live in the audio-electrical misery. It is me. I am accustomed to myself…

This year my May’s ceremony included the APS PurePower 1050 regenerator.

Look at the last pager of this thread: http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4480

I got it today; I put it into the playback and here is the very short register about my initial experiences. I write it up not only for you guys but also for myself: to organize and to log my thoughts. I am not making any conclusion but juts the pass the testimony of the observations.

The electricity today is, thanks God, horrible so the PurePower will have the things to do. I played only digital (what else is necessary) and the only one recording: the last movement of Pathétique by NPoR. If the “Adagio Lamentoso” was OK then the Third movement. Uselessly it never reach the needs to play the Third movement as the crappy electricity in the “Adagio Lamentoso” converts the sound of the second violin section into the buzz of zillion mosquitoes and the cello section into the fart of submerged turtle …. the  game typically over as is…

My CD playback in my elecro-summer configuration: TL0 and Bidat run from P300 (with removed common mode filter), the super Melquiades run from own dedicated lines, untreated; and the Preamp run form own untreated dedicated line – unfortunately it is imposable to use P300 on analog gear as it fucks up sound more then bad electricity (making bass rubber-like, thining upper MF, screw up harmonics and many other negative things).

So, the first thins I did to plug the PurePower to dedicated line and run preamp from it. It was very nice. The sound was not ruined as it would be as I run the Preamp from the P300. In fact it was very pleasant and very delicate. Then I switched the DAC and CD transport to PurePower. Absolutely wonderful result! The dynamic not even compare to P300 with phenomenal articulation and with no detectable impact in tone anywhere across the entire range, the bass is as it should be and not “intensification” of sound anywhere. The stings are very clean, very vivid and…. Did I mention the dynamics?! It is kind of very dynamic and bold but very elegant and very smooth and with not lost sounds popping up here and there – very-very pleasant. I added 6dB on the Water Drop tweeter – not problems – not negative impact. The P300 sounds in this context very pale. Still, subjectively with all colorations that P300 has it has more noise rejection then PurePower as among the stunning dynamic and verbalization elegance I still can here some very minor artifacts of the bad electricity – however those artifacts looks like do not impact sound in negative way.

 The PurePower show up the 2% or full load and I decided to pull up the power cord from the PurePower. The use is switched to the butteries on fly and… the sound practically did not change… extremely cool. I do feel that from the butteries it was a bit softer but at near negligible amplitude.  Frankly speaking I did not expect it – very positive and very promising effect.

Being pleased and enthusiastic I plagued the super Melquiades to the PurePower. The amps went off on, the PurePower handled it well. The both Super Milqs (juts 3 channels for now not 6) at this cruse plate current pushed the PurePower to 70% of load. The sound went completely to toilet. It is absolutely grey, severally compressed, with absolutely no dimensions - flat like the Berlin Wall from the East side during the 70s – juts horrible… I plugged it back to the deded wall a few times – the effect the same – with my power amps this thing is unusable.  Switching back to PurePower the front-end  - very-very nice!

Hm, I do not know what to say… I will try to masseur the PurePower later on and what is going on…

Posted as is…Reading at you own risk…
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 29
Post ID: 4632
Reply to: 4631
Something for the Melq's
How about a motor generator? Both on the same shaft, and, you could even put a CVS constant voltage sine wave transformer in, to supply the electric motor part, to keep the speed constant. About 6 kVa should do it, for both channels. Fill up your useless bathroom with large, hot, gray painted devices and thumb your nose at power line problems.

Bud
06-18-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 4633
Reply to: 4631
Some honeymoon night pictures, no comments.
I did not measure the distortions…




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 4638
Reply to: 4632
Bud, it was exactly what I was proposing?

There is a big industry of the rotary frequency converters or as they called ‘Cascade converters”. They convert 50, 60, 400Hz or whatever is necessary. There are also the 60Hz-60Hz converters that specifically designed to provide a complete isolation between the load and input power, eliminating voltage fluctuations, switching transients and any line noise. Georator does it and a few others…

The point is that such a devise for a couple to a few kW, single phase, made specifically to operate at low speed, with magnetic suspension instead of bearing is really a table-top size devise and it could be as quiet as something that could be positioned in another room. I am sure that that devises ease somewhere for labs purposes and could be bought used for a $200. I would love to try something like this….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 4639
Reply to: 4633
The APS at a temporary stand-by

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I did not measure the distortions… 
I had a conversation with the APS guys. They clime that their units do not act like my unit and that no one of their previous customers informed them that their units at a few present load sound different then at 70%. Well, the infamies “no one of our previous customers informed us about it” – sounds like a history of my live… how many manufactures I have experienced it…. They mildly questioned if I am sure what I was hearing (Purr!!!) and I very-very mildly implied that they might need more discriminating customers… :-).

Anyhow, the APS people were quite cooperative and they told that they would need a few days to figure out what is going on. I did not feel that the people what whom I spoke were too technical, neither I am, so let them to get in touch with their designer personal.

I proposed to the APS guy that it is highly unlikely that the wave generator itself cares about the load, neither the amps. It is possible that the filters that sit behind the class D-amps or perhaps something else might be tuned to be optimized to a very specific power load. It would be great if they eventually will tell me that I need to open the unit and to adjust some kind of variable resistor R34r to set the since wale and distortion level to a correct shape under the targeted load.

If this thing will be able to deliver at 70% load the same Sound that that it does at 2% load then it will be a phenomenal solution for the electricity problems.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 4640
Reply to: 4631
Hm, it is the Powerful irony: the PowerPlant defecation

A few weeks back I created an account at AA’s PS Audio forums. I was uploading there a few posts and had no problems. I presumed that the sponsorship of the PS Audio is kind of shielding me from the idiocy of the assholes what runs AA site.  Everything was fine there… up the last night. The last nigh, when I posted my log about the APS devise and reported that at 2% of power consumption APS was more interesting then P300  “something” had happened in the PS Audio forums with my account. I posted today at PS Audio forums a question/comment about the idiosyncrasies of measurement of AC polarity in the symmetries power lines (something that is completely irrelevant to the whole APS saga) and my post was deleted. Hm, fascinating….

It look like the PS Audio got the stink of that smell that I LOVE in Audio the most… I wonder when all those threaten industry freaks will understand that people like me absolutely do not give a shit about their little cronies agendas: I care less what “product” is better or worst and all this marketing-publicity craps could be wrapped and sold to the audio-morons. Make better sounding audio and it is all that mater!

Anyhow, I wish the PS Audio guy return the context of my post to me before he deleted it: I would repost it on my site as the subject is still is reminding not answered.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 4641
Reply to: 4639
Another radical approach
Imagine you buy a cheap professional SS power amp. One of those AB or D class ones which can be bridged to provide 1,5, 2Kw or more. Imagine you feed it with a perfect sinusoidal tone generator set at 60Hz at its signal input, and that you adjust the tone generator's output to read 120V at the speakers output of the power amp. Then all you'd need is feed your gear from the speakers output of that amp. You even could configure this set up to have balanced power if you wish to, and also "fine tune" by slightly varying output voltage and AC frequency within the generator settings.
It's not my idea, a friend of mine thought it. It might work, who knows. My major concern has to do with the impedances the power amp could handle and the input impedance of your gear at its PS.

Regards,

A
06-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 4642
Reply to: 4631
APS PurePower unit: some premature thoughts.

While the APS guys trying to figure out why this unit can not handle power (which more likely involved a phone call to China :-) I decided to give another try across everything, repeating my last listening, this time in relaxed environment with different music and with some sense not obligation to try the unit but rather enjoyment.

I made some observations that I feel worth to share.

1) The more I load to APS the worst it sounds. The buffer on my preamp, DAC and CD transport it almost OK, but if I load juts one of any component then it sound even better. Om the scope the idle APS unit has a near perfect wave and it become to be twisted even if I load 15W. Not good at all! Still up to 100W the sound is till fine, and then become bad becoming bad at 200W. BTW, I was loading the resistive load (!!!) With the Milq it is absolutely unusable as it was yesterday. BTW, Melquiades with it’s input choke filter everywhere is an exemplary load for APS unit – much better and much easer load then any other commercial load that the APS use even have seen out there.

2) I was a wrong in the following post:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/psaudio/messages/1/10526.html

I was not wrong about the “White Noise”. I was wrong identifying the reasons for it. Now I know the reasons. The “White Noise” did not go through the PP as I accused and was not because the isolation but was due to the fact that my preamp (for years, since 1999-2000 whet I begin to use P300) never was running form regenerators (I never was able to run any analog front end from PP too much sonic problems). With the APS I was actually able to run preamps from regulator and the “White Noise” is gone. Do not forget that the APS unit is much less decoupled form the mains then P300. So, it was not the UHF from the power line where going through (unless the APS’s output low-pass become handy to deal with the “White Noise”….

3) Sound of the VERY little loaded APS unit is extremely good, good, even up to the point of being tacky. In all audio I have seen the only one thing that did the similar trick – jack up dynamic range without to much touching other things and particularly the harmonics – it was Expressive Technology Transformers. Those few what heard my playback in my room would understand my next statement, my enthusiasm about it and how valuable it is: the APS does not screw up bass. Alleluia!!!

4) I would not that I do detect a very very very very very minor thinness in the upperbass and lover midrange region. I did added 1/3dB in my Fundamentals Channels and I feel it does fine now. I could live without it as well.

5) Apparently these little zigzags (20kHz) on the traces above, the residuals of the D-amps switching, do not affect sound.

6) It was eventually a magnificent solution for preamp. I trued in my room since P300 probably 8 preamps – not of them were agree with P300. The APS swallowed my preamp with such a effectiveness that only that was worth the price of admission. In fact it is VERY funny to test the active Placette. It draws a very little current has large CRC filter and a large for given current capacitors. So, what I disconnect the buffer form the power source it runs perfectly fine for quite a number of 5 seconds before collapsing. So, I have my dedicated feed, APS and P300 sitting right next to each other and I can switch them with no interruption in sound quality. So, sticking the Placette buffer into the dedicated lines (essentially the raw mains) I have the “White Noise”, some compression, and brutal upper range. Sticking the buffer into the P300 it sounds like someone dipped music into motor oil. Sticking the Placette into the APS made me not wiling to make this experiment again. Sing the brass opening of the last movement of the Dvorak’s New Wold…

7) OK, the price of admission. I begin to wonder about it. The unit is very large (running completely cold BTW) and frankly speaking pricy. How about the rest of my digital (AD/DA), how about my 3 phonostage, do I need to buy another APS unit….? Yep, you right! If the APS guys will not be able to detect what is going  on and why it dies with power then I would hardly feel that it worth to have this devise to run juts my fa few itemps of my ront end. From a different perspective I would like do not loose the Sound that I got from the APS. So, perhaps if the 150W is max that is possible to get from APS units then I need to harass these guys with request to come up with MUCH smaller, much less expensive 150W, no stupid buttery backup devise. But once again… who knows: if they would do 300W unit then would it men that it will sound good only at no more then 10% of it load?

Well, will see what the new day will bring. So far I'm happy but angry....


Romy The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 4643
Reply to: 4642
The first unit to serve amps well, wins.

Maybe you already said it and I am just too tired to follow, but does the APS do OK with "component interaction"?  This has been another problem for me, where the thing does alright with one front end component but gets worse with two or more, and sometimes this has been true when two or more components were plugged in but only one of them was turned on.  It got me to the point where I now unplug anything I am not using.

And how often does it happen that a manufacturer will claim that only one feature has been changed, like lowering the power rating or deleting the batteries, but use seems to suggest other changes --- for thee worse, of course?

But you have to be fairly pleased to get anything more from the Placette?

Best regards,
Paul S

06-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 4644
Reply to: 4642
Some comments about the PurePower unit.
A few more very simplistic measurements to extend on my comments. Here is the raw wave from the wall:

Here is the PurePower with 0W load

Here is the PurePower with 50W load

Here is the PurePower with 700W load

The load that I used everywhere was pure restive load. Not good at all…. Also it would be worth to note that the unit with increase of load better filter the switching frequency of the D-amp.

Well, the oscillator itself does not care of course about the load. The class D-amp usually has very little distortion as well. The wave on the scope bends quite aversively for a few seconds what the load changes and it takes 2-3 seconds to stabilize. So, I presume that the people out there who would use the PurePower with class AB amps that drown all time different current should have a lot of fun…

I consulted with Dima and he told me a lot about design of this unit and he proposed a half dozen of problems that might cause it, naming the most likely the problem with the AC filter that the APS has after the digital amp. We discussed a lot of the idea of this filter and we agree that it is very hard, if any possible, to make this filer to operate properly with different load.

Theoretically it would be possible, if I own the unit, to open it up and to rebuild the failing filter for a very precise current that my entire playback would drew, perhaps even making the experiments with the type of the filter and the order.  But I am not in the business to build the damn regenerators. The entire idea to pay $2.500 to APS people is not to have a $3-worth oscillator with $40-worth off the self digital amplifier but rather to have out of box complete sonic solution. If need to rebuild the out filter then what I am doing?

Frankly I am very much egger to hear from the APS folks that I need to look at the unit and count some capacitor or coils at some kind of board and then we learn that one coils or caps or power resistors from the output filter was missing. It would perfectly explain the ringing of the filter during and after the switching. The fun would be if we fix the ringing and tame the sinusoid shape … but loose the quality of Sound…

Oh, well….
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 4645
Reply to: 4641
And another radical approach.

 Antonio J. wrote:
Imagine you buy a cheap&nbsp;professional SS power amp. One of those AB or D class ones which can be bridged to provide 1,5, 2Kw or more. Imagine you feed it with a perfect sinusoidal tone generator set at 60Hz at its signal input,&nbsp;and that you adjust&nbsp;the&nbsp;tone generator's&nbsp;output to read 120V at the speakers output of the power amp. Then all you'd need is feed your gear from the speakers output of that amp. You even could configure this set up to have balanced power if you wish to, and also "fine tune" by slightly varying output voltage and AC frequency within the generator settings.<BR>It's not my idea, a friend of mine thought it. It might work, who knows. My major concern has to do with the impedances the power amp could handle and the input impedance of your gear at its PS.
Antonio,

What you propose has already been made by PS Studio. What I found would be more perspective for someone what would like to do is to make what the PurePower does.

There is a huge army of Class-D amps, for consumer audio and for car audio. You can buy a completed built amp that does 1500W for near $100. It is very small. Add to this amp a 50-60Hz oscillator (it costs nothing) and you have already a good regenerator. Now all that you need to go it to tune your out AC filter for you given load and it is very likely that you get a very seriously performing power source. Sure you do not need any batteries and all that crap….

The PurePower bypass is very good functionality, I tested it and it works wonderful. Still it is possible do not use it if to do even for more powerful class-D amp. There are plenty of class D amps that can pump 25-30A into 1R and it is more then enough, Thos amps are at sub $200 range…  In the worst case it also possible to soften the start of the power amps…

In fact I see quite a good opportunely for someone to see the power regenerator kits where an end user would be able to optimize the parameter of the output AC filter to the amount and the type of the specific load. It might be the direction that I go if the APS folks will not find what it wrong with my PurePower unit. The PurePower Sonic results what low load is used are a very good illustration that the no-transformers, class-D approach might work out very-very well. I am sure that we will see more and more units like this…. With one exception: it is remotely possible that any of class-D amps will suffer from the “do not load me syndrome”… Who knows, will see…

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
TonyB
Toronto
Posts 22
Joined on 04-14-2005

Post #: 39
Post ID: 4646
Reply to: 4645
PurePower
 Romy the Cat wrote:

The PurePower Sonic results what low load is used are a very good illustration that the no-transformers, class-D approach might work out very-very well. I am sure that we will see more and more units like this…. With one exception: it is remotely possible that any of class-D amps will suffer from the “do not load me syndrome”… Who knows, will see…

Rgs, The caT

Hi Romy,

I did not study PurePower in detail. They have 36V DC batteries. Do they use step up transformer after Class D amplifier or do they create high voltage DC supplies and then run the Class D amplifier from these high voltage power supplies?

Regards,

TonyB 
06-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 4647
Reply to: 4646
I have no definitive idea what the APS does.

 TonyB wrote:
I did not study&nbsp;PurePower in detail. They have 36V DC batteries.&nbsp;Do they&nbsp;use step up transformer after Class D amplifier or do they create high voltage DC&nbsp;supplies and then run the Class D amplifier from these high voltage power supplies?
I did not open my unit since I have it on trial period and do not want to violate it’s virginity until I commit. All that I know about the PurePower is from what the APS said at their web site. (BTW, the APS is horoble name for what they try to do).

Frankly speaking I do feel that they need to rewrite the text in their web site as their arguments and their presentation in some cases is laughably not serious. However, in one spot they state that the PurePower is the “transformerless” AC Regenerator. Also, in the picture they clearly show off the brand-labeled buttery of 12V… so I presume that they run 12V to 120V with no transformers. I do not know how many gain stages…

There are also some reviews out there that try to give some idea what the PurePower does but as many people know I value the industry reviewers’ opinions or their judgment no more then a fart of a while in ocean as a contribution to the Global Warming…

So, I really do not know what the PurePower does internally. I wish they explain it in details but they are perfectly within their rights not to do it. As I have written somewhere above: the irony was that when I decided to try the PurePower I was not solicited by the fact that it has some kind of kinky internal guts but rather their Marketing Director’s comment: “It does sound different (better) then other regenerators and I not really do not know why it does so.” Also, he assured me that I will not hear a lot of differences between running the unit from the wall vs. running it from butteries. In both of his claims he turned out to be accurate. In his first comment he was accurate so far only while the PurePower unit has no more then 10% of it’s full load.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 4648
Reply to: 4647
For your oscilloscope images
I suspect the APS does more or less the same that my friend proposed. It probably has a class D amp which makes some kind of PWM with a so so smoothing circuit, hence the tooth saw trace of the voltage line, some PS which probably is a switching one feeding a battery charger, and an oscillator tuned to produce a 60Hz wave with the amount of signal required for the 120V output.
Its problems may come from a not so good D amp that distorts the signal when load increases. Why? I don't know, I'm no technician, I ignore how a switching or battery power supply interacts with a digital amp when the load increases. Maybe a traditional PS were a better approach.

My concerns about impedance matching were more focused on the possibility that the input impedance at the system's power supplies was high, or at least higher than the average 4 to 8 ohms that speakers have. I don't know how digital amps deliver power when plugged into higher impedances, nor how they work if that impedance is not purely resistive. I don't know if an input transformer has high amounts of inductance that can be too demanding for a digital amp. Maybe the problem you're experiencing with the APS is not as much for the power demands of the Melquiades as for its input impedance at the PS.

This would be a very affordable DIY option, but regarded from the mains net isolation perspective, maybe the AC generator and electric engine makes more sense.

Regards,

A
06-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 4651
Reply to: 4648
While the APS people are hatching a solution…

 Antonio J. wrote:
I suspect the APS does more or less the same that my friend proposed. It probably has a class D amp which makes some kind of PWM with a so so smoothing circuit, hence the tooth saw trace of the voltage line, some PS which probably is a switching one feeding a battery charger, and an oscillator tuned to produce a 60Hz wave with the amount of signal required for the 120V output. Its problems may come from a not so good D-amp that distorts the signal when load increases. Why? I don't know, I'm no technician, I ignore how a switching or battery power supply interacts with a digital amp when the load increases. Maybe a traditional PS were a better approach.

Actually, would be the Class AB or Class D implementation is VERY loaded question. I have some ideas on the subject but I need a properly operating Class D implementation (APS) to make any further comments. Looking what APS does now against a poorly resistive load it obviously something is screwy with my current unit. Richard from APS claims that his tests units under the same conditions behave (at least measured) very different. He told that he will be sending me data but he never did so far.  I do not know if they want to replace my unit or perhaps to find a way to fix it… Let see what happens. I know that if they replace my unit them I will implore them to test it before they send it out.

 Antonio J. wrote:
This would be a very affordable DIY option, but regarded from the mains net isolation perspective, maybe the AC generator and electric engine makes more sense.

Yes, it should not be complicated D-amp DIY option but it is not the direction that I would like to go. I usually go for the self-implementation if the alternative off-the-shelf options are not good. All that would be necessary is to find a D-amp that can swing 120V… Still, the result that I get from the PurePower unit I presume is not the result that they intended to demonstrate: the APS guy told me that I am the only one person among their customers who differentiated the quality of sound with loading of the unit…  Well, I presume that I am probably also the only person among their customers whose APS unit can not hold a normal sinusoid shape without a load or into a resistive load :-) …

Anyhow, let see what a new day will bring…

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-22-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 4652
Reply to: 4651
No harm, no foul.
I suppose you'll also be the first person who ever returned one...

But now you have me thinking about the "motor" and/or a big 220/110 step-down transformer.  Laboratories use these things for their test equipment, so there has to be an off-the-shelf version, if you could source it, other than the HT/audiophile toys.  It just seems like the best way to do this would be to convert 220 [230, 240] to 110 [115, 120], then serarately ground everything downstream of the unit.

I also still want to try inter-component isolation of some sort.

The D pulses make me nervous.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-22-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 4654
Reply to: 4652
Do not be nervous, listen the thing.

 Paul S wrote:
I suppose you'll also be the first person who ever returned one...The D pulses make me nervous.
Hmmmm, it would be disappointing if I will be forced eventually to return it as it would make me to look further for some similar solutions. I have seen in APS' the results that I very much appreciate. I juts need to get out of APS regenerator something that it should do according to it’s intend and it's specification. I dod not see why it shouod not do it....

To my big surprise the D-pulses do not make me nervous. If you look at the D-pulses at 2% load then they even larger then at 70% but at 2% it sounds exceptionally good.  My objection is Sound not the intellectual satisfaction. If I need an intellectual satisfaction I have a power plant: the PP has a perfect wave across all range and the order of magnitude less distortions – well the PP is also sounds not acceptable.

In fact if to look at the subject deeper then it might be some rations to have D-pulses. Let me to explain. In the power regeneration we care only about the 60H fundamental, right? The PurePower uses somewhere around 20KHz pulses that should be filtered after the D-amp (like DA converter). So, the unit has a filter, let pretend at is at 100Hz, wherever order… The power lines have some noses at hundreds kHz and those noises might be good filtered by the D-amp output filter. At the perfect world it would be nice to have this unit properly operating and then try to tune the out filter, presuming the fixed 70% load of class “A”, writing a perfect Bessel curve and perhaps experimenting with the steepness of the filter…

Frankly the more I think about this APS unit and its idea the more and more I coming to the observation that if it this type of regenerator is made to functions properly then it should be extremely interesting solution.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-22-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 4657
Reply to: 4644
The APS PurePower vs. good electricity.

A friend of mine asked my last night if I feel that PurePower’s Sound as good as a playback during those extremely seldom moments when electrify is good. It was a good question and I feel that it is worth to cover.

First off all I can not say about the PurePower generally but rather about the sub 10% loaded PurePower running only 3 items of my front end (Transport, DAC and preamp-buffer). Also, my APS unit looks like improperly operating so, go figure if the my current PurePower’s Sound comes from the PurePower’s functionalities or from the sonically-luckily malfunctioning circuit…. :-) – That would be funny!!!

Ahyhow, I would accept the sonic results of the sub-10% loaded PurePower “as is” and go from there.  Surely my comment would NOT be apply to the over 10% loaded APS unit.

The sub-loaded APS regenerator turned out the closest sounding devise among all that I have seen compare to “good electricity”. Here is my abridgment describing where I feel there is a difference between the times when electricity “sounds perfect” and the situation what the front of my playback runs from the APS  (sure, putting the whole system on the APS would be more rational…)

1) The “good electricity” directly from mains has very-very-very slightly more credence at lover MF and upper-upper-upper bass. In my care it was not a big deal and I easily balanced it with Macondo adjustment.

2) The “good electricity” has slightly softer topmost octave, having less conflict between HF and silence. The Power Plant roll off and dehydrate a lot of HF, the PurePower keeps it there but makes it very clean. However, the “good electricity” makes HF… DISAPPEAR. None of the units I have seen do it. However, be advise that I run now my “Water Drop” tweeters intestinally VERY HOT (I have my reasons). So, take my comment in context of my deliberately too “hectic” tweeters.

3) PurePower has an effect of “Hyper Texture”. Not the crappy “hyper resolution” but the Hyper Texture. This Hyper Texture is extremely interesting effect and it VERY different from the effect of a properly loaded OTL’s Hyper Texture. The APS’s Hyper Texture creates certain discrimination upon the micro articulations in musical material. Interesting that this Hyper Texture exists across the whole frequency range and looks like very evenly distributed dynamically. The Hyper Texture does not have as negative feeling as it sounds. If the Hyper Texture would be present only within a specific range or at specific volume level then it would be a coloration but as I can see so far it is evenly speeded and I found it so far that it has a positive contribution to presentation. The PurePower’s Hyper Texture reminds the Mravinsky’s X-Ray like articulation…., in a way…. An attentive reader woyukld say: the Hyper Texture AND slight reduction of harmonic in lower MF – is it sound too recognizable? Not really – it is different with the APS unit. I would not finalize my observation about it because who knows how my APS snit will sound what it will be fixed. However, the Hyper Texture impact is easily detectable, and I am not quite sure at this point if the Hyper Texture might be considered as “coloration”. BTW, I have quite a lot of suspicion that the Hyper Texture come form the residuals 20kHz pulses…. I think is it is so then PS audio should still this idea for their multi wave schemas….

4) PurePower does slightly increase the subjective dynamics compare to the times when electricity is good but is loops to the good electricity in terms of dynamic viscosity and dynamic inelegance (read more about the dynamic viscosity in my posts where I was discovering Melquiades). When electricity is good then Sound has “infinite dynamic”, allowing the dynamics to be “slow” (very positive word in my vocabulary). However, when it is necessary (and do not think juts about the micro-dynamics but about any transients) then it instantaneously throws a huge “infinite” dynamics, still (and it is VERY important) keeping references of the listening awareness in awareness to the boundaries of the dynamics coordinate system. (This is what sold me to use the 6E5P as a unique driver). The PurePower dos not look as it has this effect of “intelligent dynamic”. The PurePower throw more vicious dynamics MOMENTARILY but PurePower does not feel where we were a juts before it or where we go next. It would be similar to a figure skater: with  good electricity the figure skater does all his jumps and tricks right in the dead center of the arena vs. the PurePower make the skaters do some crazy jumps and tricks bounding from the arena’s walls, converting the figure skating into a ….hockey. Hey, APS is a Canadian company it should be kind of hockeyc….! :-)

This is pretty much what I feel so far but it is very important to understand that there is no such a state of Sound as “when electricity is good”. I might recall perhaps 3-4 times per year when my playback was close to this electricity state….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 46
Post ID: 4664
Reply to: 4657
Any thoughts yet about the APS versus analog?

I did read your earlier post regarding the P300's use and unsuitability for analog in your system.

I am starting to listen only in the early morning, and I can hear The Change as the day gets going and I presume people start switching on their air conditioners, pool filters kick on, etc.

I don't think I've mentioned before that I happen to have a big transformer sitting on a nearby pole with my house feed dropping right down from it.  I mention it now to put it in the context of still-bad power, in case anyone might think a proximate transformer is The Answer, as it is not a cure in my case.

Oh, well; I should be packing, anyway.  Hi-Fi/records last to be boxed, first to be un-boxed.

Best,
Paul S

06-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 4665
Reply to: 4664
The APS unit is in a gestation...

P300 is not on the radars anymore. Some people say that their new Premier is better then older PP but Premier eventually the very same regenerator as the old PP.  It looks like just another round of marketing re-branding – very slick to pay mortgage. Ironically the very same people who praising now the Premier never acknowledge the sonic problems of the older PPs. Stull, I personally never had the Premier and it is just my guesswork as I am not interested but get another re-branded PP.

The APS unit is riding back to manufacture and they promised to fix it. It they do then it will be great but then I have to see how it will sound after the fixing, particularly at high power. If the APS solution for whatever reasons will not work out then I will not try to build any regenerator but will attempt to use some other double-action UPS devise. However, they will be the APS-type solutions, not the PS-like solution...

The, Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 4687
Reply to: 2931
An open letter to PS Audio’s Paul McGowan

I just received PS Audio June Newsletter and have written a reply in a format of an open personal letter to Paul McGowan. Below is the text.

Paul,

A new round of my experiments with curing electricity made me to write up this open letter. I did not post it at your site as my objectives are not to humiliate you company but to make you to pay attention to certain facts. If you feel comfortable to post this letter at you company’s site then do so and I will publicity stay behind to what I have expressed.

During the last few years, since the class D amps become more and more available including the one that can swing high voltage, there was a number of On-Line Double Conversion and Delta Conversion become available. They are not the cheap consumers Standby, Line-interactive, or Fero USP devises but they are pure regenerations, costly but powerful and effective. (There is a large army of them staring from $1000 and up).

I went to my data center and tested some of those devises. They do not test ever close to the PS Audio PowerPlants (and I looked juts at distortions and shape of the wave). However, there is more to it. There are companies (APS for instance and their numbers will be growing) that accommodate the very same principle: “AC-DC-battery-AC-DAmp-Filter” making and marketing their regenerators for audio consumers. The Irony is that I do not feel that those companies really compete with PS Audio’s PowerPlants as the SONIC RESULTS that the transformerless-Damp regenerator deliver is WAY BEYOND what PS Audio ever was able to demonstrate. I mean all know to me sonic problems that PS Audio has with their regenerators are not there anymore.

I have no explanation why the “AC-DC-battery-AC-DAmp-Filter” delivers WAY BETTER SOUND - it is your domain to provide technical justification to the facts. Paul, you are a good engineer and you know what you are doing. However, I can assure you Paul that I know about Sound more they you do and I can assure you that SONICALLY the APS regenerators are order of magnitude more superior then your PowerPlants.

Well, if it get your attention, and it should, then here are some thoughts. It is not all as straight with APS regenerators and “DAmp-Filter” topology, as you know, has own set of issuers. Still, I feel that attacking the issuers within the scope of APS-type regenerators is way more PERSPECTIVE FOR SOUND then to do it within the scope of your Class A/B regenerators. I anticipate that what you read my letter you will not allow own ego and your company invested marketing to cloud your judgment. So, what kind judgment I would anticipate in response to my letter and why I am writing it up.

First off all it is important to understand that I am not associated nether with APS not with any other audio company or interest grope. I equally do not give a damn how many regenerators PS Audio or APS will sell. However, I am interested in me, the consumer, have better performing (SOUNDING!!!) regenerators and here where I would like the Hi-Fi power regenerators companies to compete for attention of people like me and to deliver to us, the consumers, better products. The APS does the best they do, however, the PS Audio is longer in power regenerator business, has more experience, more resources, not to mention the marketing momentum. Unfortunately today, when PS Audio develop and promote their new generation of class A/B regenerators they essentially make users to buy technologically-obsolete and inferior sounding products… Very sad… I wish the PS- audio do not waste itself with supplementing the bogus distortion analyzers with new PowerPlants but make better sounding units. 

I sincerely hope that you invest some of your R&D efforts in the APS-like topologies and PS Audio will come up with a new better sounding “DAmp-Filter” re-generator.  The more companies will work in this direction, pushing the boundaries of “availability” the better we, the users, will be served and at better prices. I hope you understand my motivations and take my critiques contractively.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 4695
Reply to: 4687
Oops, sorry forgot to disconnect it.

Playing tonight Bruckner Seventh I realized that something is very wrong in the system. The basses got insultingly “umfy”. Usually the basses in this music should be large but very soft and they should loll over with speed of like a senior hippopotamus scathing his back. However, this time my bases were jumpy and overly articulated and soar across the music like a chimpanzee jumps across trees. The Seventh Adagio suddenly got converted into disco music – with that stupid rhythmic bass asses in the end of each even phrase.

I recheck everything and everything looked fine. Eventually I discovered what was wrong. I turned out that I forgot to disconnect the PowerPlant 300 feeding my preamp… Well, welcome to the club…. It was what the Morons tell to each other: “Oh what you know -with P300 the Patricia Barber’s bass it got better…”

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
buzz


Posts 2
Joined on 07-02-2007

Post #: 50
Post ID: 4697
Reply to: 2931
bad electricity or bad wiring?
 Hi Romy,

I just wanted to mention that 'ground' in home ac is not 'ground' at all. It is actually 'neutral', a theoretical '0 volts'. In reality the resistance of the wire itself guarantees that there WILL BE voltage on that wire. Remember, voltage will always follow the path of least resistance. If you tie a seperate copper grounding rod to your system, any other component (refridge or your neighbors air conditioning) using the same line voltage may chose to use that path instead of the city power grid. In the very least, a giant ground loop has been created, with your system right in the middle. The end result is an INCREASE in noise. The mention of "wetting" a grounding rod shows how severely flawed a system can become.

I have had great success using derived 'ground' and isolation transformers. While not a total solution, they have proven highly stabile.
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