oxric wrote:

Romy, I am not too sure you understood me at all! Celebrating yourself? That’s not strength of conviction, that suspiciously rankles of self-idolatry and we know where this strong belief in oneself led Hitler, and for that matter, Keyser Soze. Of course, one can admire the implacable sense of purpose of the powerful in their various guises, whether the Keyser Soze of Singer’s hit, or the God of the Old Testament, but it is not the way we should treat others just on the basis of who they associate with.

oxric wrote:

Obviously, it goes without saying that somewhere along the way, we need to draw a line. If my best friend decides to become a paid up member of the British National Front, his mere association would test the bounds of our friendship, unless this was motivated by some more noble motive, say academic research. I have not heard anything about Mr. Weiss that suggests that he is such a nefarious character that using him as a distributor (a glorified shopkeeper if I may say so) automatically disqualifies one from being treated with civility, especially when the person goes out of his way to address some of the misconceptions that this thread was being riddled with. I thought you were trying to objectively discuss the merits or demerits of the Shroder approach, at the beginning of the thread anyway, not set up a trap to lure him here, and heap a truckload of garbage on a discussion that I for one, enjoyed and found enlightening until that point.

berlinta wrote:

..."your boyfriend from Oswalds Mill"... Absolutely superfluous, meant to insult only choice of words. My wife, if I'd show her this thread, would yell at you like a drill seargent. Her fuse is short.

Come on, Frank, you need to be a bit less uptight.  For years I use phrase “boyfriend” as a subside-mockery of American fear of English. I refer to coworkers in corporate environment as “boyfriends” and the damage in there is much-much higher. My coworkers are laughing but you got pissed and brought your wife to the table. Get live, will you. Though I have seen as you friend from Oswalds Mill I have traded his wife as well…

berlinta wrote:

...""It is my firm conviction that if you are associated with Oswald’s Mill then you are a bottom of the barrel and it is my very fundamental judgment." "I do not have hostility toward you" Those two sentences following each other directly are contradictory.

Why would it be so? I do not feel hostility even to your Oswalds Mill friend. I wish a track tomorrow run over him and kill this son of bitch but I do not feel hostility. Hostility implies engagement but I have absolutely no engagement with nether Oswalds Mill not with you at this matter.

berlinta wrote:

Here in Germany(and several other countries) it is a criminal offense to disply a swastika or other Nazi insignia. In fact, if you were to publish such a comparison in Germany, one could sue you for libel. I value the freedom of expression highly, but only up to a point where discrimination of race, gender, nationality and religion sets in. I've worked for and with people from over 80 countries, from all denominations and and wide variety of cultural backgrounds for nearly 18years(German foreign office, Federal Press office, Senate of the City of Berlin, Jewish community,Turkish community, US newspapers and TV stations, The Berlin Film Festival...).  I've talked to old Nazis, Neo-Nazis and kids who just wear a swastika to piss off their parents and teachers. I would never associate myself with a Nazi(or a muslim fundamentalist, or a hardcore fan of the Stakin era USSR, etc...), but I would always try to talk with them to understand what makes them tick. As long as you can maintain a proper distance you can form a basis helping you to prevent others(kids) from falling into the trap of radicalism.  So, I'd appreciate it if you could refrain from mentioning me and National Socialism in the same context in the future.

Ok, first of all I did not know that you are German. When you register at my site you use provider from Belgium so I thigh that you are from there. Regardless where are you are from and who you are my illustration with Nazi swastika was just an illustration of concept and was not targeted as a pan against you. In fact if I know that you are German then I would probably use an example of blacks and KKK of something at this matter. Still, the illustration was just an illustration and there is no need to search in it anything more than it was intended.

berlinta wrote:

"The expertise, understanding and the actual Sound that Jonathan Weiss is capable off has become the representation of what Mr. Schroder dies, his face and his respect to sonic reference points." Let me assure you that no dealer (and Mr. Weiss is a dealer, not the distributor) that I cooperate with has a system that matches my sonic ideal. It would then be, quite frankly, impossible to sell anything through third persons. The enthusiasm, if not passion for music (and the gear that reproduces it) is the yardstick by which I go. That and the willingness to do as much as possible to make the customer happy. If the dealer starts placing profit above service, he's out. If he insults a customer, he's out.

Fair. I do not insist that dealers/distributors necessary reflect the manufacturers’ sonic ideal but it is frequently a case. Might I ask you, Frank the German: would you appoint a person as your dealer if you know that this person let say an active member of US Nazis party, or you know that he breaking in the customer houses and still the things. In my judgment Jonathan Weiss is worse than this and he is your dealer.

berlinta wrote:

"Is it possible that behind that Frank’s “technical literature” there is an absolute ignorance about needs of Sound? I would not speculate, I do not know Frank Schroder personally and the only circumstantial evidence I have is the Frank’s association with Weiss – it is enough!" The above sentence is exactly that: speculation.

Of course speculation, so what? I know quite many people who are Oswalds Mill related. They all have the very same common denominator of my speculations. You would be very surprised to learn how accurate my speculations are in context many of them.

berlinta wrote:

I'm still waiting for you to be so kind and explain what you meant by what the quote below refers to. "I'm not shure I got your point about "VTA/VTF lock", what do you mean by: the arm will try to "maintain VTA", despite no change in VTA(?)"

Let look at static VTA, sort of differentiation VTA frozen in one single point. All theories might be applied to this VTA and everything is fine. BUT, in real live static VTA does exist and needs along with arm coals is constantly bounce up and down the groove. So, more appropriate from theory level would be no do not view VTA as some kind of perm angle but rather an angle that has a vector of acceleration.  However, I argue that it has no practical meaning and I feel that efforts to enforce the VTA/VTF lock (to a degree) are not justifiable. I think you fiddle with it juts because you can and because your arm is light-suspended. In other arms the suspensions and bearing tension are stronger then vector of VTA change. However, in other arms those tension act as buffer that make a tonearm to operate stable and constantly. In your light-suspended arm everything is “exposed” and arm has no “start”, no entry reference point if you know what I mean. I presume that this is why some people complain about your arms as they find it too tweaky and too vulnerable to the conditions. In my view the greatest arms have that perfect balance what the arm need to react upon and what it need discard or “swallow” by own tensions. In my view the 3012 has this perfect balance. I do not use your arms but from what people say in this thread as from my understanding how your arm work I feel that your arms might need to have some “tension grounders”.

Romy,

As with all such matters,

‘Tis dangerous when the baser nature comes

Between the pass and fell incensed points

Of mighty opposites.

(Hamlet)

I should leave aside matters that are clearly of a personal nature since I don’t imagine I will ever have the first-hand evidence to make up my own mind about Mr. Weiss and his product line is of really no interest to me.

To close a discussion that will almost certainly achieve nothing, a couple of points, if I may.

I would like to point out that Frank does mention that he came close to falling out with Mr. Weiss:

 berlinta wrote:

Many years ago, Mr. Weiss attacked me and my product publicly with equal rudeness(he does have a bad temper from time to time, but you ain't no slouch either :-). Instead of firing back even harder, I approached him to see if I could get him to listen to my position and he did. He has treated me with respect ever since and unless he changes this attitude, I see no reason to follow your position. Especially since you seem to project your hostility onto my person, without ever having met me.  

If that’s true, I am not too sure Mr. Weiss demonstrated the professionalism one would expect from one who makes a living from the audio industry. If that’s true, my reaction might have been quite different to that of Frank, and almost beyond doubt different to yours – I imagined you would have used Macondo as a battering ram. But Frank wanted to see if reasonable and civilised behaviour could prevail. He swallowed his pride and tried to end the whole sorry episode with both parties coming out with what look likes a mature and mutually acceptable solution. Apologies were extended, notes made of what gave offense and promises to behave better in the future followed, one would imagine. It’s about being human, we make mistakes, we say sorry, we make amends, we move on.

I just wished you would find it in you, out of fairness and common courtesy, to keep the thread within the boundaries within which it was raised, that is a technical discussion on the approach of Frank Shroder to the design of his tonearms. Remember some of us, like you, may not assiduously frequent some of the other forums populated with maybe less ‘interesting’ contributors. Some of us, unlike you, may not have the funds to spend on a tonearm that cost as much as a decent second-hand car or feed a whole village in a developing country for a year. Irrespective of Frank Shroder’s pricing strategy, however, if one was looking for one’s very last tonearm, then $7000 may be in that context a reasonable price to pay. Given that the true masters of the art of making tonearms are a declining and dying breed, it  would appear a good thing if one would make Frank Shroder feel welcome to take part in a technical discussion without fear of being attacked because of the virulence of your feelings for a third party with whom he has merely a business relationship on the face of it.

Let me quote from yourself Romy, to reiterate what I thought was in part the point of your website.

Romy wrote:

Performed music is music contaminated, or in some instances enriched, by a fused awareness of many people: conductors, musicians, various environmental variables, listeners and few others. To observe the delta between the raw "primary musicality" and "live" music delivered to us as a "Symphony Hall’s product" is one is the most fascinating parts of dealing with music. However, in case of a Recorded and Reproduced music there is something else on a picture. Sound reproduction injects into a sandwich of the "delivered music" one extra level of contamination – the interpretation of the original musicality/performing intentions by the soulless algorithms of a sound reproduction chain. Any humane interpretation, even corruptions or aberrations, have own causes and motives; they can be related to because they are based of a common to us sense of humanity, reasons and consequences. Contrary to this, the mechanisms of "unconscious" sound reproduction: the eclectic and mechanical conversions themselves can not relate to the initial musical initiatives (although there is much more in here to talk) and their injections into the Reproduced Musicality introduce a permanent de-humanized layer, that is an unfortunate obstacle for our humane listening consciousness, and that obstacle impedes our ability to find a relation between our own experiences and the experiences of the expressed musical idea.

Maybe I just don’t get it but this seems to say that all music, at all its various stages, is concerned with interpretation and it is our shared culture that makes us react in a certain way to the musical event. We may not like the composer, Romy, or the manufacturer , or the ‘Weiss-noise’ but surely the human element cannot be eliminated and is always essential whether we like it or not. Frank Shroder may not have the creative power, or the inclination, any more than you or I do, to compose music but he is no less an important part of our hobby’s landscape. We may not like his business relations, but these are not the same as affiliations, and we ought to listen in case he has something interesting to add to this ongoing  debate about audio that will continue long after you or I have left these mortal coils. You do seem to have a fondness for Richard Wagner as a composer, even though he authored Das Judentum in der Musik ("Jewishness in Music", 1850), a polemic directed against Jewish composers in general. Sometime we need to look beyond our immediate gut reaction or there is a lot which is good about life, and people in general, that we will miss in our too short lifespan.

oxric wrote:

I just wished you would find it in you, out of fairness and common courtesy, to keep the thread within the boundaries within which it was raised, that is a technical discussion on the approach of Frank Shroder to the design of his tonearms. Remember some of us, like you, may not assiduously frequent some of the other forums populated with maybe less ‘interesting’ contributors. Some of us, unlike you, may not have the funds to spend on a tonearm that cost as much as a decent second-hand car or feed a whole village in a developing country for a year. Irrespective of Frank Shroder’s pricing strategy, however, if one was looking for one’s very last tonearm, then $7000 may be in that context a reasonable price to pay. Given that the true masters of the art of making tonearms are a declining and dying breed, it would appear a good thing if one would make Frank Shroder feel welcome to take part in a technical discussion without fear of being attacked because of the virulence of your feelings for a third party with whom he has merely a business relationship on the face of it.

I do not share this sentiment. Honestly, all conversation that Frank Shroder put up do not truly have any meaning if there is no reference point how it all relates to anything. It is like a DC voltage. It might measure 4V but if you ground at minus 40V then you need really re-interpret what voltage you have and absolute number become less relevant then relative numbers. The people who run their mouths on all imaginable technical subjects are fine but how it all relates to sound? Well, go the same diyaudio.com and read the pontification of Dr. Geglee about loudspeakers. He is unquestionably a very clever fellow but sonically he has intelligence at a level of a marble statue. Most of the DIYers in audio are the very same boat and my position about them is well known. Again, tonearm is not the objective, the sound that a tonearm does is. That is the target of the interests. I am ok when people use different right or wrong theories or concepts to make audio. I am OK what people do not give shit about sound and use audio juts as money making tool. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The Oswald Mills cretin is in very different business – it is not about money and it is not about audio. You need to know the person to understand what kind aberration it is. Frank Shroder deals with this aberration and he shares business with him. So, Frank Shroder is the person of Jonathan Weiss level - there is nothing further could be said and his technical discussions worth as much as Weiss “technical discussions” or the “technical discussions” or that Brazilian AudioVoice retard.  I do extend anathema to all that trash and if Frank Shroder is willing to be part of it then it is his chose. I have no need to advocate my position.

oxric wrote:

Maybe I just don’t get it but this seems to say that all music, at all its various stages, is concerned with interpretation and it is our shared culture that makes us react in a certain way to the musical event. We may not like the composer, Romy, or the manufacturer , or the ‘Weiss-noise’ but surely the human element cannot be eliminated and is always essential whether we like it or not. Frank Shroder may not have the creative power, or the inclination, any more than you or I do, to compose music but he is no less an important part of our hobby’s landscape. We may not like his business relations, but these are not the same as affiliations, and we ought to listen in case he has something interesting to add to this ongoing  debate about audio that will continue long after you or I have left these mortal coils. You do seem to have a fondness for Richard Wagner as a composer, even though he authored Das Judentum in der Musik ("Jewishness in Music", 1850), a polemic directed against Jewish composers in general. Sometime we need to look beyond our immediate gut reaction or there is a lot which is good about life, and people in general, that we will miss in our too short lifespan.

Oxric, are you under some kind of impression that I do not like Weiss’ speakers or his amplifiers and it makd me to behave in the way I do? You are very naïve then. Take me serious. My abhorrence of that dirt is at much more sane level then this. Wait until the Oswald Mills “human” kidnap your wife and sell her to some kind of slavery. Then he will use the money he got to promote something you have spent you live to fight against. Then when he run out of money he will send you an invoice to demand pay more. Then he will start a marketing campaign that would tarnish you as a person who ordered from him an expensive tonearm but refuse to pay the closing invoice. This is not so much fantasy – this is how that human waste lives and thinks. Good luck Frank Schroder with your associate!

Romy,

For what it’s worth, I do not doubt that your grievances when it comes to Mr. Weiss extend beyond not liking his products and amount to such a deep-seated abhorrence of his whole being, that it taints anything or anyone that comes close to him. I did my research and I saw enough to see in Mr. Weiss a rather unlikable fellow emerge through the postings (tauntings might be a more appropriate word) on audioasylum in 2006 when relations had already soured in the ‘Cogent loudspeaker thread.’ He baited you. You struck back in your inimitable fashion. Then it got predictable. When we wear our heart on our sleeves, people learn how to pull our stops, and they played you in order to get rid of you.

You are who you are, and there is no chance that you will change your views on this but your inclination to paint everyone with the same brush is however my point. You used Keyser Soze, as an illustration of the power of one’s convictions. Without commenting on the appropriateness of the analogy, let me mention that our recent  history of the past twenty years, starting with the Glasnost of Michael Gorbachev, the Nelson Mandela years post-1989, and the peace process of Northern Ireland, was all about ignoring the unpalatable connections of some of the key characters who sat at the negotiation tables. The result was the end of the totalitarian system in the Soviet Union, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the end of apartheid in South Africa and the IRA laying down arms in Northern Ireland. The world is a better place as a result.

In this instance, the stakes are not so high. You can do as you please, but in my opinion, it is a mistake. This approach has two main consequences that I would like you to reflect on. First and foremost, it will discourage people like Frank Shroder to post on your website, even if only to defend their good name or clarify some issues that your website has somehow managed to distort or presented inaccurately. They know there is little hope they will be treated with civility. Secondly, by doing so, you will encourage a breed of hangers-on and would-be ‘copycats’ to converge on your site. I am surprised that of all the people who regularly post on your website, no-one was prepared to tell you plain and simple that your attitude is wrong-headed, belligerent and unproductive. Surely even if many by some remarkable coincidence see eye-to-eye with you on this, there must be some who don’t. But they stay quiet and lurk in the shadows. Is this the world you want to live in, given that your website seems to be one of the very few where you can post nowadays? Ponder this.

One other thing, Romy, I find despicable that you should mention my wife in this discussion, even hypothetically, and irrespective of the point you were trying to make. I know you might say that you did not even know that I was married but the odds were rather high, weren’t they? That stratagem does not advance your argument but rather robs it of its credibility. My wife is Italian, absolutely adorable and yes, I do live in daily fear that she might be kidnapped!

Frank,

I love Berlin and I am well aware of what a great place it can be for music lovers, and indeed lovers of fine food, although admittedly I have rather little fondness for German cuisine. In fact we love Germany, and hope that in the not too distant future, we will move to France, within an hour’s drive or so of the border, although still not so close to Berlin, which should give my wife a chance to practice her German and me a chance to learn the language. I am glad to see the exciting state of analog in Germany, and interestingly enough, some of these companies seem to have taken a leaf from the basic philosophy espoused by the Micro Seikis our host is very fond of. I am always amazed by how much my German friends love music, especially classical music, from a very young age. I remember one university friend especially, who when we would be organising a night out at the pub or clubbing, would be off to see a live classical music performance at the Proms in Central London, even on the little allowance that he had.

Regards
Rakesh

oxric wrote:

You can do as you please, but in my opinion, it is a mistake. This approach has two main consequences that I would like you to reflect on. First and foremost, it will discourage people like Frank Shroder to post on your website, even if only to defend their good name or clarify some issues that your website has somehow managed to distort or presented inaccurately. They know there is little hope they will be treated with civility. Secondly, by doing so, you will encourage a breed of hangers-on and would-be ‘copycats’ to converge on your site. I am surprised that of all the people who regularly post on your website, no-one was prepared to tell you plain and simple that your attitude is wrong-headed, belligerent and unproductive. Surely even if many by some remarkable coincidence see eye-to-eye with you on this, there must be some who don’t. But they stay quiet and lurk in the shadows. Is this the world you want to live in, given that your website seems to be one of the very few where you can post nowadays? Ponder this.

Do you feel that you reveal to me something that I do not know, or you feel that your reaction is spontaneous and unprompted? I am not in the business to win hart and minds and I have no interest try convincing anybody that “Berlin philharmonic is 7 blocks from me”. This site is perfectly reflects all my idiocy and I am very fine with it. If you insulted by it then just stop reading this site

oxric wrote:

One other thing, Romy, I find despicable that you should mention my wife in this discussion, even hypothetically, and irrespective of the point you were trying to make. I know you might say that you did not even know that I was married but the odds were rather high, weren’t they? That stratagem does not advance your argument but rather robs it of its credibility. My wife is Italian, absolutely adorable and yes, I do live in daily fear that she might be kidnapped!

Rakesh, I am sorry but I admit that it was a bit stupid to accuse me in any insensitivity in this context, even if you feel that the “odds were rather high”. I wrote initially about kidnapping of a daughter (saw last night another damn movie where former Oscar Schindler kills all those French people to liberate his kidnapped but incredibly stupid daughter). But after a few attempts to spell “daughter” I was not successful and I used instead an easy for spelling word "wife". That was the all “odds and stratagems”. My apology if I hit too close to the subject of your phobia, it was not my intention but never forgers that this thread is not about your fears but apparently about Romy’s blind ruthlessness.

Romy,

As I said, it is your site, both a blessing and a curse. You do as you please. 

Romy wrote:

This site is perfectly reflects all my idiocy and I am very fine with it. If you insulted by it then just stop reading this site

I am not insulted. There is no reason to be. In hindsight, I am a fool and ought to have known better than to say anything at all. It’s not as if my protest got this thread anywhere other than where it was headed anyway, once you had your target in your sightline.    

Romy wrote:

My apology if I hit too close to the subject of your phobia, it was not my intention but never forgers that this thread is not about your fears but apparently about Romy’s blind ruthlessness.

And you must excuse my ineffectual attempt at injecting a tiny dose of humour in this thread.

Romy wrote:

I am not in the business to win hart and minds and I have no interest try convincing anybody that “Berlin philharmonic is 7 blocks from me”.

Nobody would dream of accusing you of that Romy. Your honesty may be, as you put it, ‘ruthless’, and that can be sometime a welcome and refreshing change, but your choice of target is somewhat too indiscriminate, in my opinion.
 

 Romy wrote:

To accuse me in ... in this context? The defense rests.

Your reading of my posts is very selective Romy. I was not accusing you, just commenting on a different approach which would have made this thread more productive, from the point of view of my interests, nothing more, nothing less. You are free to do as you please (albeit within legal rules relating to publishing anything online, such as libel, the laws relating to incitement to terrorism and suchlike), it is your domain. There are in fact quite a few areas where I do agree with your views, which is why I do read your site and quite a few others where I don't, although my natural tendency is to resist temptation and keep my peace, which I will remind myself, is the right approach, when everything is said and done.

Stitch wrote:

All those "discussions" about the Sonic Quality from Schroeder Arms are similar to ask a Blind for the direction.(or to ask for a lab report from the latest hyped DIY unit)

I think it is wider then just Schroeder arms. Did you see ANY discussions about the Sonic Quality of hyped products? Did you pay attention that they do not exist? I mean the herded morons constantly believe that they talk about Sound but in reality they just recite the artificial taking points were given to them by the people who light up the hype. I have seen zillion exemplas and I do have very high sensitivity to distinct an original thinking about Sound from the empty-headed semantic blabbering about audio where words have no sensed meaning (90% of all conversations by audio people).

Saying all of it in the Schroeder thread I do not insist that nether Frank Schroeder or his arms are subordinates of the above mention percentage. As I told above I have my rational do not give damn about anything Schroeder-related. The fact that Schroedists admiration I have heard about are coming from the sleaziest scams do not help to the Schroeder tonearms.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I think it is wider then just Schroeder arms. Did you see ANY discussions about the Sonic Quality of hyped products?

No. the typical audiophile has the following tatoo onto his forehead "I-buy-I-Am"

Romy the Cat wrote:

you pay attention that they do not exist? I mean the herded morons constantly believe that they talk about Sound but in reality they just recite the artificial taking points were given to them by the people who light up the hype.

My Grandpa (God bless him) told me once: "Treat an Idiot like an Idiot. When you explain something, you will confuse him"

That sentence makes the Audiophile life easier with products like, LP12, Garrard, Schroeder, Koetsu, Clearaudio...." and the latest "Faschisto" group, Raven Turntables

Romy the Cat wrote:

I have seen zillion exemplas and I do have very high sensitivity to distinct an original thinking about Sound from the empty-headed semantic blabbering about audio where words have no sensed meaning (90% of all conversations by audio people).

"blabbering" is the blood pumping through the body of an Audiophile.

They have absolutely no idea from "High end" but they know exactly from what they talk.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Saying all of it in the Schroeder thread I do not insist that nether Frank Schroeder or his arms are subordinates of the above mention percentage. As I told above I have my rational do not give damn about anything Schroeder-related. The fact that Schroedists admiration I have heard about are coming from the sleaziest scams do not help to the Schroeder tonearms. The Cat

Hi everyone,

As I said, I never intended to be the advocate of the devil. Now that this thread seemed to have resolved that the Shroder tonearm is either over-hyped, or at any rate that its  manufacturer is beneath contempt because of his association with OMA, it seems people have moved on to a much wider ranging issue. By the way, for the sake of fairness, and to avoid ambiguity, I would like to say that my unqualified view is that Frank Shroder should stand or fall on the basis of the merits or demerits of his tonearms, not his business associations, unless Mr. Weiss is, and it is clear that this is the case, so beneath the acceptable norms that no one in their right mind or with a modicum of decency should associate with him.

Romy wrote:

I think it is wider then just Schroeder arms. Did you see ANY discussions about the Sonic Quality of hyped products? Did you pay attention that they do not exist? I mean the herded morons constantly believe that they talk about Sound but in reality they just recite the artificial taking points were given to them by the people who light up the hype. I have seen zillion exemplas and I do have very high sensitivity to distinct an original thinking about Sound from the empty-headed semantic blabbering about audio where words have no sensed meaning (90% of all conversations by audio people).

Saying all of it in the Schroeder thread I do not insist that nether Frank Schroeder or his arms are subordinates of the above mention percentage. As I told above I have my rational do not give damn about anything Schroeder-related. The fact that Schroedists admiration I have heard about are coming from the sleaziest scams do not help to the Schroeder tonearms.

Since this thread has moved somewhat from its initial heading, I would think that the topic now under 'scrutiny', that is the duplicitous nature of all discussion surrounding hyped products, would seem to merit its own thread. I agree with some of the views stated above, but not in the absolute terms in which they are put.

I know for a fact that if I were to stand accused of such a charge, a number of unpalatable facts would come to light about me, and I would have to hang my head in disgrace. I do read a fair number of the unappetizing press, whether originating from the UK, the US and continental Europe. I have made purchases more than once on the basis of some of these ‘hyped’ recommendations, specially cartridges, tonearms and analogue playback devices, since  these are rather hard to have demonstrated satisfactorily at home or at shows. And yes, I have eventually sold 90% of the ‘moronified’ components I bought on the basis of these various reviews, hyped opinions by industry  cheerleaders etc. Often then I have learnt the hard way.

“A sadder and a wiser man

 He rose the morrow morn”

The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, ST Coleridge

My gained wisdom on the ‘morrow morn’ still has not prevented me from making these same mistakes all over again. I do show more caution than previously, at least I hope so. If anyone has a burning desire to know what I envisage as my next blind purchase – it would be the OPPO 83SE to use as a source in my home cinema system (they are not represented in the UK), and possibly the SME312s to compare to my current previous generation SMEs. This will be in the summer when I have completed a couple of property purchases in the next few months with a view to moving to France permanently or semi-permanently someday. In some ways, Romy, your present circumstances mirror mine although we differ so much in our views, attitudes and pretty much everything else I imagine.

For about a year now, I have been preparing for the possibility that I may decide to move at some point in time. My approach has been somewhat different to that advocated at a number of places in the relevant thread, based on past experience with movers. Since that thread has now moved on, and this one is rambling aimlessly, I will include my advice here about moving companies and movers – never trust them, as it is enough for a rogue element to be present for the worst to happen. I have dedicated custom, heavily padded, boxes, some with secure individual compartments for delicate  accessories etc. made for everything that I want to keep long-term. These boxes are made here on the premises and will withstand the rigours of travel. Some of them have industrial strength lockable caster wheels to facilitate movement of rather heavy equipment. I use reliable people I trust, who know me and my equipment well, to become movers for a day when it comes to moving all the delicate and vulnerable components/stuff. The boxes are sturdy but can be completely dismantled when not in use. In this way, I know I will be ready to move easily, and again as and when the need arises. This plan has now been in motion for about 5 months and is about 70-80% complete I would say.

All the best

Rakesh, before everything: you use MS Word to type messages and it has some strange styling formatting that My Word cleaning server scrip cannot clean. As the result your posts screw formatting of my site. I was trying to research what style items are guilty but I did not find it right the way and I do not have time nowadays for deeper anises. So, it would greatly be useful if you in future paste your post from ASCII editor. Alternatively, after you paste your text from MS Word to my text box you might use a button “Clean MS Word HTML” on the right of the reply toolbar (it was a big blue “W”). That shall kill all your “odd” formatting and then you might “paint” the text with my editor tools.

oxric wrote:

As I said, I never intended to be the advocate of the devil. Now that this thread seemed to have resolved that the Shroder tonearm is either over-hyped, or at any rate that its  manufacturer is beneath contempt because of his association with OMA, it seems people have moved on to a much wider ranging issue.

Rakesh, not one say, at least I did not say, that Shroder tonearm over-hyped. What I insists that the people who sell them in US are not only known to be the over-hype providers but they has no other skills or qualification then hype management.  I hope you recognize the difference.

oxric wrote:

By the way, for the sake of fairness, and to avoid ambiguity, I would like to say that my unqualified view is that Frank Shroder should stand or fall on the basis of the merits or demerits of his tonearms, not his business associations, unless Mr. Weiss is, and it is clear that this is the case, so beneath the acceptable norms that no one in their right mind or with a modicum of decency should associate with him.

Why who cares about Frank Shroder? This thread is not judgment over him, and I do not think he shall care about anybody makes any judgment. This thread turned out to be into my rejection of anything Frank Shroder does or say JUST BECAUSE his association with Jonathan Weiss. You deny my right to walk out of room and loose my interest if I see let say Nazi swastika of KKK hood? Why you deny my rights to behave the same if I feel the stench of the Weiss-ness? (Again, do not behave like a infant, it has absolutely nothing to do with Frank Shroder being German, like Germany and have no problem with Germans.)

oxric wrote:

Since this thread has moved somewhat from its initial heading, I would think that the topic now under 'scrutiny', that is the duplicitous nature of all discussion surrounding hyped products, would seem to merit its own thread. I agree with some of the views stated above, but not in the absolute terms in which they are put.

The absolute term? Oxric, are you under impression that a normal person would be searching the absolute term in this (or any other) site? absolute terms are the subject of fulfillment of own requirement and it might not be found outside…

oxric wrote:

If anyone has a burning desire to know what I envisage as my next blind purchase – it would be the OPPO 83SE to use as a source in my home cinema system (they are not represented in the UK), and possibly the SME312s to compare to my current previous generation SMEs. This will be in the summer when I have completed a couple of property purchases in the next few months with a view to moving to France permanently or semi-permanently someday. In some ways, Romy, your present circumstances mirror mine although we differ so much in our views, attitudes and pretty much everything else I imagine.

Rakesh, I have completely different approach to “tonearms purchasing”, or to the purchasing of any new audio. Pay attention that I asked Frank Schroder only one question and he gave quote foolish answer, ironically the very same answers that Weiss would give. This did not escape my attention even if I did not comment on it.

oxric wrote:

For about a year now, I have been preparing for the possibility that I may decide to move at some point in time. My approach has been somewhat different to that advocated at a number of places in the relevant thread, based on past experience with movers. Since that thread has now moved on, and this one is rambling aimlessly, I will include my advice here about moving companies and movers – never trust them, as it is enough for a rogue element to be present for the worst to happen. I have dedicated custom, heavily padded, boxes, some with secure individual compartments for delicate  accessories etc. made for everything that I want to keep long-term. These boxes are made here on the premises and will withstand the rigours of travel. Some of them have industrial strength lockable caster wheels to facilitate movement of rather heavy equipment. I use reliable people I trust, who know me and my equipment well, to become movers for a day when it comes to moving all the delicate and vulnerable components/stuff. The boxes are sturdy but can be completely dismantled when not in use. In this way, I know I will be ready to move easily, and again as and when the need arises. This plan has now been in motion for about 5 months and is about 70-80% complete I would say.

Thanks, I have devised a very good in my view moving strategy and have find good movers that I feel comfortable. I will report the results in the appropriate there after they move me and will bend all my tonearms…

Romy wrote:

Rakesh, before everything: you use MS Word to type messages and it has some strange styling formatting that My Word cleaning server scrip cannot clean. As the result your posts screw formatting of my site. I was trying to research what style items are guilty but I did not find it right the way and I do not have time nowadays for deeper anises. So, it would greatly be useful if you in future paste your post from ASCII editor. Alternatively, after you paste your text from MS Word to my text box you might use a button “Clean MS Word HTML” on the right of the reply toolbar (it was a big blue “W”). That shall kill all your “odd” formatting and then you might “paint” the text with my editor tools.

Romy,

I did not realise using MSWord had these consequences. Maybe that's very obvious to all the savvy 'forum members' here, I am still getting to grip using the 'reply' tools on this forum. In the future, I will not use MS Word. I tend to use it as it's a more natural environment for me and allows me to organise my thoughts better. My first language is not english, so I join the legions of visitors to your website who according to Jonathan Weiss, 'don't read English too well.' This is what he has to say, in a singularly isolated thread entry dated December 20, 2009, which can be found in full below for your delectation should you be so inclined:
http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=403.0

Jonathan Weiss wrote:

Now, the reason I bring up a thread about my favorite AntiChrist (Romy) is that I find it so unbelievable, so incredibly amusing, that this guy has any followers at all, given his level of expertise, and I'm completely ignoring the issue of his "exposition." It is of course amazing that people would turn to a guy who uses that kind of vocabulary to discuss people and things, but perhaps most of the visitors to his site don't read English too well. Nonetheless, and this is my point, how can anyone take this Moron seriously when he writes something like the following in a thread about the Schroeder arms,

I presume his meaning is that your website contributors, or followers as he calls them (interesting thought that, would I qualify as a 'follower'), who for some reason, are unable to read english 'too well,' would have even  more serious problems expressing their thoughts, thereby suffering the same problems to a lesser or greater degree, as yourself, in terms of exposition. Does anyone here know the sort of qualifications that Mr. Weiss possesses, which make him such a rare authority on matters of the English language and relating to discourse, and which eventually led to his present position in life as a shopkeeper?

Mr. Weiss seems to enjoy the level of intelligence and subtlety of expression one would expect to find in a plancton, and as we know one may wait a long while for evolution to finesse its handiwork here.

Regards
Rakesh

Stitch,

You outlined very nicely the pattern that exists with quite many products in audio, I call it Whorish Fear Marketing I can’t say that the same happens with Schroeder arms. I just do not know as I never paid any attention to those arms. Jonathan Weiss wais is one of the strong proponents of the Whorish Fear Marketing and as I learned that there is Weiss- Schroeder alliance then I lost any interest to Schroeder arms. I know from many-many examples and from many people that in order to be “linked” by Jonathan Weiss a product, person or event shall have a very specific Whorish Identity and very recognizable performing level. They are vampires of audio and very much abhor anything they are able defecate out of their empty brain.

Again, all of this is not about Mr. Schroeder or his arms. However, he absolutely voluntary embrace all this crap that Weiss is and therefore his is an accomplice of the Whorish Fear Marketing. Does a manufactures who has respect to itself and has an able, self-demonstrable product needs to use the Whorish Fear Marketing? I do not think so. O do not think that there is a personal relation between Schroeder and Weiss – their relation is biasness and is based upon the fact that Schroeder need the fucking retards of Weiss-level to create noise about his tonearms.

This is how they operate and this is who apparently they are. This is the reason why I discard the Schroeder tonearms juts from the fact that Mr. Schroeder is associated with Jonathan Weiss and looking at the “type” of the people who report “for” and “against” the Schroeder arms I see not unexpected discrepancy.

The only valuable foe myself history lesson I took after Jonathan Weiss visit was Jonathan’s quote. It was where we were sitting in his listening rooms and I was making one of few very fruitless attempts to explain to him why his speaker to sound in the why they are.  Jonathan was listening but I saw that he did not understand what I was saying to him. I asked him and he discerned what I was talking about. He replied: “People out there might be very surprised to learn that I have absolutely no clue about audio and have very little understanding how the things work”. This was actually his quote and it is not taking out of context. Listening what he was saying about audio, listening about his interests in music and sound reproduction it was very self-evident that he is very accidental and very primitive participant of audio. If Mr. Schroeder feels that this level of people are a proper re-presentation of his views then anathema to Mr. Schroeder and he can stick his arms in own ass.