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  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  225922  02-27-2011
04-30-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 960
Reply to: 960
Hørning prøblems.

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I stopped by yestoday ay NY show for a couple hours. Somewhere in there SRA’s Kevin Tellekamp fished me and told me that he wants to show me something very interesting. He brought me into a room where Hørning loudspeakers were demonstrating. (http://www.horninghybrid.com/) The room sounded as horrible as it should be (“47 Labs” digital garbage juts for starters!) The system was setup obviously by the people with no brains, taste or ears but despite of the misery that this installation spit to a listener there was something that deserved to be mention – the Hørning upper range.

I mentioned the Hørning performance last year:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=34

I like what this company trying to do but I really do not like what they ended up doing. I will try to dissect this speaker in a few seconds but before a few words of the “fame feline bitching”.

Last year the speaker was presented by “Horning Hybrid Perikles” importer who told me that they demonstrated: “3-ways loaded into the same horn loudspeaker”. I asked him to explain what dose it mean “3-ways loaded into the same horn”. The importer began to spread such foolishness that I was looking at his face trying to determine if he was just kidding or if he really was an idiot. No, he was not kidding and I decided that the conversation was over. This year “High Water Sound” presented the speakers. I do not know if they had the same distributor last year and I do not remember if I spoke with the same people. However, this year there was a smaller model of Hørning presented and I asked a few elementary questions about the loudspeaker. The distributor indicated a complete luck of ANY familiarity with the product even thought the question I asked are distinctive for this particular design and the answers are well-described at the manufacturer web site and in any reviews of the product. Now, for those $15.000-$25.000 that people would pay for those loudspeakers this ignorant fool who calls himself importer/distributor/representative put in his own pocket at least 60-50% of YOUR money. Can this “retarded industry professional” to read a damn general description of his products in order to be able to support even a semi-intelligent conversation about what he is selling? I am not asking him and him-like to make sense of to really understand what he might be saying (would it be too much to ask from yeastoday’s McDonalds drop-offs) but can they juts to memorize one page of a written by manufacturer text?! If they do not do it then please, manufacturers and customers – fire this unnecessary money-sucking parasite, as his/her involvement is completely worthless.

Now, return back to the Hørning idea. The speaker is bult around Lowther driver. All, with no exception Lowther-based loudspeakers are very bad as the Lowther is a MIDRANGE DRIVER ONLY. As soon Lowther forced to handle lower midrange (not to mention the upperbass in back-loaded application – the ultimate evil of SE-based audio) of HF then sound get instantaneously converted into wishful thinking.  Hørning did very correct: they high-pass and low-pass thier Lowther without letting this driver to go very high and very low. (Lowther at HF is very fuzzy sounding driver, no mater how you plug it). Hørning did some modification to Lowther driver (I do not know what they did but whatever they did sound quite fine) and complimented it with a conventional tweeter at 6dB. The upper midrange sounds phenomenally good, in a way remaining what Vitavox S2 driver dose, although way thinner.  Still, to my taste the Hørning midrange lucks some laconism but it is imposable to say anything defiantly without looking at this sound in conjunction with lower midrange and the upper bass. Here is where we hit the Hørning problems: those speakers do not have any serious nether lower midrange or upper bass.

It is nice that they do not use the Lowther with an open bottom (if they do!!!) They high-pass they driver at 200Hz (it sounds like however I do not think they do it)  but it is still mistakably low frequency. Lowther must not handle ANYTHING under 500-700Hz and I would STILL call it too low crossover point for those drivers capacity. The Hørning was not able to do so high. They used the low Fs woofers with rubber suspension that do “survivable” job at 40-50Hz but they are completely worthless at upper bass. In upper bass is where Hørning begin to spit into room the dirt from thier “double-Assymmetric Quarter Wave individual loading hyperbolic shaped output pipe with port” (Oh!!!) The problem with all of this that as soon the speaker his anything from I would say 700Hz to ~70H it sounds like my $19-worth commuter loudspeaker I am not kidding. This harmony with quite attractive upper range and completely disastrous lower range is very very very very unfortunate…. :-(

Yes, I understand that the  dropping the woofers low-path and raising the Lowther low-path would force an introduction of a dedicated upper-bass direct radiator channel. This would quite dramatically chance the geometry and size of the loudspeaker but I can’t see anything wrong with it – let the damn importer/distributor to move heavier boxes for the money he sucks-out from Hørning users!

Should Hørning introduce a 4- Way loudspeaker based upon what they do currently then it might be quite interesting model to try auditioning.  Certainly it would be more expansive but here is where would be nice to cut the 50%-70% of the importer/distributor mark up. If THAT importer/dealer is wiling to inject himself into a process of the loudspeakers distribution (as he understand it) then lifting and moving of loudspeakers cost not more then $10/hour and it is execly how much he worth.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 1015
Reply to: 960
Re: Hørning prøblems.

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Roman,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Last year the speaker was presented by “Horning Hybrid Perikles” importer who told me that they demonstrated: “3-ways loaded into the same horn loudspeaker”. I asked him to explain what dose it mean “3-ways loaded into the same horn”. The importer began to spread such foolishness that I was looking at his face trying to determine if he was just kidding or if he really was an idiot.
Funny that, as his description of Hoerning Speakers work was pretty accurate.

Ignoring the rest, I think it best if I cover a little how these things work.

First, the Lowther has ze wizzer cut off and has an Equalisation circuit to flatten ze upper midrange bump. Otherwise it is run fullrange, that is WITHOUT HIGHPASS OR LOWPASS.

Secondly, the Hoerning principle is actually more accuratly a dual folded TQWT, not a horn. The TQWT housing the Lowther and that housing the rear mounted woofer are of different length and are in effect mounted back to back. However, the division between the two end sections of the two TQWT's is missing and thus in effect there is just one "horn mouth" and beyond a certain point the horn becomes one. So, if we want to view the Hoernings as Horns we have a split throat single horn.

Crossovers on woofer and tweeter are 1st order and the woofer(s) carry on quite high up in frequency to support the Lowthers lower midrange.

The merits or not of such a system are debatable, the Hoerning speakers I have heard in detail (Perikles & Agathon) where pretty decent but a little bland and average, good average speakers with aove average sensitivity was my reaction. And yes, Real Hi-Fi (where I am de-facto tech & modketeer) does distribute Hoerning in the UK, so I'm quite intimate with the design.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
05-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 1016
Reply to: 1015
Horning further questions.

 Thorsten wrote:
First, the Lowther has ze wizzer cut off and has an Equalisation circuit to flatten ze upper midrange bump. Otherwise it is run fullrange, that is WITHOUT HIGHPASS OR LOWPASS.

Probably this is why the Lowther sounded within the Hoerning’s so stressed and with a huge tendency to suffocation and choking. Regarding the absents of the band-pass filters… Perhaps you are correct. However, they use Lowther DXII that runs up to 6-7kHz. Probably they let the Lowther decay I upper knew naturally, which is fine. The lower knee in their Lowther quite low and they truncated it at 200Hz. it is what I remember they told at the manufacturer web site. (sorry, I can bring the direct quote as thier site is down) I was quite surprised when I read it, as 200Hz is too high for those 12" Beyma to handle. Subjectively I would estimate that thier Lowther works way lower but I do not know how low. This what and why I was asking the sales rep.  BTW, an “equalization circuit to flatten ze upper midrange bump” destroys sounds order of magnetite heavier then a 6dB filter. In fact an opened first order has no effect to sound besides the sound of the cup. Why the industry created the faulty paranoia that a 6dB filter is bad but the idiotic structure-of-sound-destroying resonators are good is way beyond my understanding.

 Thorsten wrote:
Secondly, the Hoerning principle is actually more accuratly a dual folded TQWT, not a horn. The TQWT housing the Lowther and that housing the rear mounted woofer are of different length and are in effect mounted back to back. However, the division between the two end sections of the two TQWT's is missing and thus in effect there is just one "horn mouth" and beyond a certain point the horn becomes one. So, if we want to view the Hoernings as Horns we have a split throat single horn.

OK, it makes sense. Interestingly I never seen the Hoerning principle explanation as TQWT loaded with two drivers according to Horns and Voight Pipes concepts. How, difficult for that rep at the show would be juts to mention it?

 Thorsten wrote:
Crossovers on woofer and tweeter are 1st order and the woofer(s) carry on quite high up in frequency to support the Lowthers lower midrange.

Hm, a non-truncated Lowther in TQWT application should go all the way down to ~50-60Hz, even if they killed with the “equalization circuit” the typical for TQWT combfilter resonances. So, how come that the “woofers carry on quite high”? If the story about 200Hz is correct then what holds the Lowther in TQWT do not go all the way down?

Rgs,
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 1022
Reply to: 1016
Re: Horning further questions.

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Roman,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Regarding the absents of the band-pass filters… Perhaps you are correct.
 I am correct, I have been inside Hoerning speakers, to find "what makes them tick"....
 Romy the Cat wrote:
However, they use Lowther DXII that runs up to 6-7kHz. Probably they let the Lowther decay I upper knew naturally, which is fine.
 Yup, that is what Tommy Hoerning does.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The lower knee in their Lowther quite low and they truncated it at 200Hz. it is what I remember they told at the manufacturer web site.
 Not quite. The woofer(s) come in at 200Hz, the low Qt of the Lowther makes the SPL roll off notably below around 200Hz, the TQWT has nowhere near enough LF gain to compensate that.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I was quite surprised when I read it, as 200Hz is too high for those 12" Beyma to handle.
 You think so? I find reproducing 1KHz with a decent 12" Driver no problem.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
BTW, an “equalization circuit to flatten ze upper midrange bump” destroys sounds order of magnetite heavier then a 6dB filter.
 
It may or may not do. I was not commenting on the sense or lackthereoff od the design, I merely discussed what is actually done.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
OK, it makes sense. Interestingly I never seen the Hoerning principle explanation as TQWT loaded with two drivers according to Horns and Voight Pipes concepts. How, difficult for that rep at the show would be juts to mention it?

The only reason I can explain it like that is that I have disassembled Hoerning speakers and in the process (as I do routinely) documented the design (I have done this for many speakers that have passed through my hands). BTW, I do not do any of my reverse engineering in order to copy things, but to understand how they work....
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Hm, a non-truncated Lowther in TQWT application should go all the way down to ~50-60Hz,
 Nope, there is NO WAY in the world you can even approach a flat energy balance with a single Lowther in TQWT, there will invariably a tipped up balance. Add to that the combfilter effect of the line and you have a mess. If you use two drivers in two TQWT's suitably tuned the "comb's" of the comb filtering interlock and give a reasonably even LF output.

Again, I do not claim this to be the greatest solution or not, I merely state how it works in the observed example.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
04-23-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 18088
Reply to: 960
Horning updates?
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Romy,
I am very interested in this thread as I have heard the latest version of the speaker "eufrodite mk IV" . I do not think any of your objections would be changed by the latest version as he is now using push-pull array of beyma 8" drivers up to 200hz and lowther above.
Still, i have listened extensively and absolutely enjoy .  What this circumcised lowther can do with mid-range does not make me miss my vitavox s2. He has added an extremely good proprietary tweeter which does the right dynamics through large orchestration too.
Does it do bruxkner ? Obviously I do not know what bruckner you get and I can not hope to match. My bruckner 9th tonight with jochum and bpo and i am a tiny dot on an enormous universe of silence created by sound, it is breathtaking.  
It is what it is, store bought efficient speaker, I Think i could live with it for awhile.
If you ever find yourself dragged into horningnroom again please update thread ?
R weissman
04-23-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 18089
Reply to: 18088
No holds barred acoustic system…
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Rony, the Vitavox S2 is an interesting MF driver for 110dB sensitivity. In near or sub 100dB there are plenty interesting MF performers. The Lowther doing MF only and do not stretched for idiotic full range is very good option and Horning did show it off. I do not think that I will have a chance to hear the new revision of Horning. I do not go to shows, do not knock in the doors of dealers and to the best of my knowledge there is no one in Boston that I know who use Horning. If somebody would do Lowther for MF only but in context of a large 4-5 ways acoustic system then it might be worth to try listening it. In my view Horning is shooting itself in foot by trying to make a compact and cute loudspeaker that easy to sell and easy to place right next to a big slick TV. This is fine of cause but my definition of interest nowadays is not a slick loudspeaker but large-scale, no holds barred acoustic system.  For those type efforts I would move my lazy ass and try to listen them…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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