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  »  New  Audio and Music: four levels of unity and separation or..  Absolute and mandatory condition....  Playback Listening  Forum     9  62140  11-09-2004
  »  New  “How audio might sound”..  Re: Revealing Quality...  Playback Listening  Forum     8  42533  03-12-2005
  »  New  Playing music for visitors...  ...and sometimes it might be so deferent.......  Playback Listening  Forum     11  56155  01-27-2006
  »  New  There is nothing subjective in music reproduction...  The Nietsche of my tail....  Playback Listening  Forum     9  47422  03-08-2006
  »  New  About Darwinism of Music and Audio assessments...  The mechanism of audio consciousness evolution...  Playback Listening  Forum     3  23304  09-11-2007
  »  New  What constitutes a great audio performance…..  What constitutes a great audio performance…...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  7673  05-20-2008
  »  New  The Absolute Sound of Audio Idiocy...  Different ways of listening...  Playback Listening  Forum     13  62714  08-06-2008
  »  New  My playback’s sound vs. Live sound...  String bite...  Playback Listening  Forum     7  32953  03-28-2009
  »  New  Audio and the “Alzheimer’s triggers”..  Yet one more 'trigger' not mentioned......  Playback Listening  Forum     3  20533  08-12-2009
  »  New  About the Critical Audio Tune ™..  “Critical Audio Tune” bay-leave in the soup......  Playback Listening  Forum     5  32435  08-29-2009
01-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 9583
Reply to: 9583
About the Playbacks’ Thinkability.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I usually do not particularly care about compliments of my visitors about my playback – I know whatever they know, not to mention that ordinary audio people are so inept to talk about Sound that to get any more or less stimulating critical feedback about what they heard from my playback is very complicated without waterboarding.

One of the greatest compliments that I am getting from time to time is when some people comment how specific music played by my playback makes them to think about the specific piece of music or a specific performance differently than they thought before.  I really appreciate when somebody listen what I would like to show off and ask “Where does this come from?”, or “Do you think it shell be this way?”, or “Why this was played this way but not that way?”, or “What would it be if this or that would be presented in this or that way?”, or just intelligently to object what they heard. A playback is expressive tool and my playback in particularly does a lot of things actively very differently then it usually done by the supporter of so common Masochistic Audio.

I have to admit that I am not so spoiled with abundance of intelligent visitor-listeners with whom I might be interested to collaborate the idiosyncrasies of MY sound or THIER sound of the PERFORMED sound. Most of them are ordinary audio listening ballast and they are clueless what they hear, have no attitude about what they would like to hear and the most important they have no objectives HOW they would like to hear. I found them boring…

I frequently play to people a piece that they do not know and ask them what they do not like in this performance. It is very important that they shell not have knowledge about the given piece of music and their perception of the music shall be built by the way how the performer and my playback present the given musical pieces. After getting the comment from a listener about what was right and wrong I usually play ether other performance of the same music or do some adjustment in my playback to present the piece differently the second time. Usually this second/third play sets the things straight right the way: about the understanding of the listeners of what s/he listens, about the amplitude of my playback’s capacity to interpret messages and about our both cultural/artistic references and understanding.

As much as it is incredibly difficult to found an installation that has that “active thinking ingredient” imbedded into itself as much it is difficult to found civilized listeners with evolved expectation and noble audio listening experiences. Over my audio life I met 6 people who I would conditionally considered “civilized listeners” and the all the rest I recognize as guinea pigs for studying the audio-Pavlovian reflexes. Even among those 6 only 2 of them were able to hear a playback and to say “I see what you mean” without me saying what I would like to say.

Anyhow, the “Thinkability of playback” is not just underrated or mostly unknown element of audio but rather the audio thinkability of playback’s owner is a very rare commodity among audio people. As the result the numbness and expressive impotency of those people paybacks is just a reflection of the owner’s apathy toward to audio-thinkability.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 9588
Reply to: 9583
Listening ....and ...Listening
fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting to read. Whenever I had contact with "Audiophiles" and I asked about the impressions about a component, I get 99% always the same answer: "....too analytical for me....whoa strong bass...I like it faster...I prefer more highs...I prefer more bass......too weak....blahblahblah"
No matter how cheap or expensive their stuff is. I lost interest in such conversations after I listened to their Systems and asked God, when he will let me go out from this room .... Most is real cruel.

I think, I had some luck, at the beginning from my Hobby I met some record collectors (Living Stereo, Deccas....) and when I listened to these on their Systems, I was very impressed, it was a "Picture from the Recording" I got and I remember my impressions when it was finished. I never thought about Hardware, it went totally out of its way.



Kind Regards
Stitch
01-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 9593
Reply to: 9588
Audio recording and reproduction
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
Whenever I had contact with "Audiophiles" and I asked about the impressions about a component, I get 99% always the same answer: "....too analytical for me....whoa strong bass...I like it faster...I prefer more highs...I prefer more bass..."

I think, I had some luck, at the beginning from my Hobby I met some record collectors (Living Stereo, Deccas....) and when I listened to these on their Systems, I never thought about Hardware, it went totally out of its way.
I think most audiophiles are focused on frequency response, NOT that it be flat mind you, but that it be a certain way to suit their ears. It may not suit your ears, as you may not have high frequency hearing loss, etc.

However, the limit of this is being able to say "the violins sounded like violins should." Most listeners ignore the dynamic response of a system, the type of distortions introduced, the accuracy of reproduction of the original waveform, the quantum issues.

The vast majority of things that give us information about a performance of a musical piece are preserved or lost in the recording process, not in the reproduction by the audio system.

Adrian
01-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 9594
Reply to: 9593
How Romy the Cat saved High-End…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
The vast majority of things that give us information about a performance of a musical piece are preserved or lost in the recording process, not in the reproduction by the audio system.

I would very much argue this. I would certainly do not deny that a large amount of information about a performance or the performance itself might be lost of screwed by recording process. But I would not accept this premise and something that demean the participation of reproduction chain. The word “starvation” has bad connotation, however there is a field of human knowledge and experiences when “starvation” is inflicted purposefully for medial and physiologist (not to mention mental) proposes. You might read Herbert Shelton’s writing on the subject among many others.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020127shelton.III/020127.ch1.htm

One of the points is that human body is a perfect self-regulated mechanism and any poisoning and contaminations that make it imbalanced come to outside, from wrongly combined food for instance. So, the periodical cycles of starvation are the mechanism to remove the bad contaminates form body and restore the organism to its self-regulated state. It is not the post about the benefit of starvation but it has to do with my very fundamental view about audio reproduction that I am advocating for years.

A properly-made (very loaded definition) playback of audio reproduction chain can act to “information about a performance” as starvation acts to health of human body. With proper structuring of playback it is possible the effect of recuperation when the problems and predicaments of recording chin and in some case even the performing chin might be detoxified and the certain subconscious sensations that we experience during the live event might find the entry point in our listing practice. If this premise of mine do not exist then the whole notion of high-end audio as I understand it worth absolutely nothing and one million people who practice high-end audio shell return back to practice philately and the stupid baseball watching. The problem with all of it is that I am correct and playback is a tool of impact on right hands instead of the tool of reflection of a recording misery.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 9601
Reply to: 9593
Accessability
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, I was thinking about what you said and I realized that at this point I am actually getting more music from more of my records now than  I have done ever before.  Yes, I do get "more" when the electricity is nice, but the most wonderful thing I have gotten is not the "best sound" - as great as that is - but rather it has been access to music via older recordings that are probably deemed marginal or even bad by most listeners, let alone most audiophiles.  So, while I still have a number of issues with my system that I aim to address, I swear I will back track to sonic mediocrity if I have to in order to be able to continue to mine the "poor" older recordings for their musical content.

I think I do not confuse my present love of older recordings with mere nostalga, but more than before I enjoy scores and performances, per se, and this is the biggest reason why I regard my system as "better".  For a while there, every system change I made that "improved" the sound also limited my musical choices.  But the most recent round of changes has had the opposite effect, much to my delight, and I have been amazed by how well great performances of great music survive even poor recordings.  Also, and perhaps more specific to this thread, I think it is possible to get both better sound and more music from more recordings at the same time.

This brings me back to the Great Satan, Bad Electricity.  Perhaps you would comment on your own progress on this front, in the appropriate thread?

Best regards,
Paul S
01-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 6
Post ID: 9602
Reply to: 9601
The right stuff
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
For a while there, every system change I made that "improved" the sound also limited my musical choices. But the most recent round of changes has had the opposite effect, much to my delight, and I have been amazed by how well great performances of great music survive even poor recordings.
Paul, what you say is correct. It sounds as if you are moving in the right direction. In my mind, any "improvement" in my stereo that reduces my options and ability to enjoy music is no improvement at all.

I am a big believer that older recordings have all the necessary stuff contained to allow us access to the music. The engineers simply did not have the technology to screw up the recordings too much. When I refer to bad recordings I am referring more to heavily processed multi-tracked pop efforts a la Brittney Spears, etc.

Adrian
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Audio and Music: four levels of unity and separation or..  Absolute and mandatory condition....  Playback Listening  Forum     9  62140  11-09-2004
  »  New  “How audio might sound”..  Re: Revealing Quality...  Playback Listening  Forum     8  42533  03-12-2005
  »  New  Playing music for visitors...  ...and sometimes it might be so deferent.......  Playback Listening  Forum     11  56155  01-27-2006
  »  New  There is nothing subjective in music reproduction...  The Nietsche of my tail....  Playback Listening  Forum     9  47422  03-08-2006
  »  New  About Darwinism of Music and Audio assessments...  The mechanism of audio consciousness evolution...  Playback Listening  Forum     3  23304  09-11-2007
  »  New  What constitutes a great audio performance…..  What constitutes a great audio performance…...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  7673  05-20-2008
  »  New  The Absolute Sound of Audio Idiocy...  Different ways of listening...  Playback Listening  Forum     13  62714  08-06-2008
  »  New  My playback’s sound vs. Live sound...  String bite...  Playback Listening  Forum     7  32953  03-28-2009
  »  New  Audio and the “Alzheimer’s triggers”..  Yet one more 'trigger' not mentioned......  Playback Listening  Forum     3  20533  08-12-2009
  »  New  About the Critical Audio Tune ™..  “Critical Audio Tune” bay-leave in the soup......  Playback Listening  Forum     5  32435  08-29-2009
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