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01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1
Post ID: 9532
Reply to: 9532
EdgarHorn Speaker Project
fiogf49gjkf0d
The EdgarHorn Titan is a very well made speaker, but I have identified in it a limitation in the midrange where the frequency response may not be ideal. This will become clear after I have analyzed the speakers with RTA.

Thinking ahead, I want to gather opinions on potential solutions. The JBL 2441 covers 500-10,000Hz, which possible is too much for it. An additional speaker could be added to split up the frequency range (such as TAD 4002, Vitavox S2, etc.)

People's thoughts and advice are appreciated.

Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 9542
Reply to: 9532
Frequency response is NOT a limitation of midrange driver.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Adrian,

It might be a fascinating but more evolved journey then you think or willing to endure.  The first thing first I think that your fear that your “midrange might have ideal frequency response” is not a motivation to change anything. Are you concern about frequency response or about the well-identified subjective complained that you have developed?

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

If you look all thread related to TRA then you might see that I am very skeptical about “even frequency response”. It is a big subject and do not expect that you get from a new for your RTA any objective measurement. The objective measurement is the one that 100% correlation with auditable experiences – it take some time to educate yourself how to measure, what to measure and how to interpret the measured results.  What a time being, instead of thinking about “what might be changed” I would encourage you to nail down what specific problem of your playback dissatisfies you and to think then by mean of what changes you will be addressing the given well-identified and understood problems.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 9543
Reply to: 9542
HF issues
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The first thing first I think that your fear that your “midrange might have ideal frequency response” is not a motivation to change anything. Are you concern about frequency response or about the well-identified subjective complained that you have developed?
Yes, exactly. It has become clear to me that there is an issue in the upper midrange. I am planning to use the RTA to help to identify exactly the area of the problem. However, it is exactly a case of having identified a problem, and now I am looking for a way to correct it. I thought you or others may have seen this issue, as I know you are familiar with this JBL and Fane drivers, so I asked for advice based on your experience with this issue.

Adrian
02-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 9656
Reply to: 9532
Vitavox S3 drivers with Edgar Horns?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Adrian,

If you are still in MF frustrations then I have something that you might find interesting. Recently I pick up in UK a pair of Vitavox S3 drivers. They out to be with original metal cones. I do not need them but the price was too good to let it pass. I was considering to put it to my storage, adding them to the of my large grave yard collection (a big storage with all imaginable loudspeaker crap) but then I figure that if you wish I might let you to play with before they die in my “audio repository”. 

The speakers now in the box in my trunk (I did not open the box up as I got it from UPS) and if you wish I just dump them to post office. Be advised that it might be more pain on ass for you then you expects. The speakers are 50 year old and most likely need work. They are 1.5” and you would need to make up some kind of temporally mounting arrangement. The have cone at the different spot then you current drivers, so you will straggle with time-alignment. They are with ceramic magnets- so you might not like your current amp with those speakers, a SS SE amp in class A would be more desirable for them.  Anyhow, you might have a lot of work to do just to try it, I am not sure that it is what you would like.

Anyhow, if you are bored and would like to have some audio “excitement” then I can send them to you for a couple month…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 5
Post ID: 9658
Reply to: 9656
Vitavox drivers?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
If you are still in MF frustrations then I have something that you might find interesting. Recently I pick up in UK a pair of Vitavox S3 drivers. I figure that if you wish I might let you to play with before they die in my “audio repository.
Very interesting, it is certainly worth a try. Do you have the information on frequency response, impedence, etc?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The have cone at the different spot then you current drivers, so you will straggle with time-alignment.
It is actually not a problem. The drivers of the Edgarhorn Titan are all in separate housings that slide independently. I experimented when I got them with small adjustments, but found out that the way they had been set up initially was correct.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
They are with ceramic magnets- so you might not like your current amp with those speakers, a SS SE amp in class A would be more desirable for them.
Then it is a good thing I still have my Threshold SA-3 amplifiers, 50 W Class SS, the last thing Nelson Pass did before he sold the company.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Anyhow, if you are bored and would like to have some audio “excitement” then I can send them to you for a couple month…
It is like the Godfather, an offer I can't refuse. In any case I think it will be educational to see the effect on the sound.

Adrian
02-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 9659
Reply to: 9658
Vitavox S3 drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:

Very interesting, it is certainly worth a try. Do you have the information on frequency response, impedence, etc? 

http://website.lineone.net/~empson/S3.html


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 9660
Reply to: 9658
If someone would offer the same to me then I would refuse.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:

In any case I think it will be educational to see the effect on the sound.

It will not be just “effect on the sound” but “affords on the driver”. I cut the lid of the shipping box in my trunk and it looked at the drivers. Without opening them I up I might assess that they are in original condition and no one vandalized them (I have seen many of them and can make very accurate assumption). The drivers have flare foe 4-bolt mounting, which is good. Each driver has one terminal broken off (constant pain on Vitavox drivers if former shippers did not screw in the binding terminals all the way down before shipping). The way how the Vitavox made the broken off binding terminals shall not destroy diaphragm, so I presume that the diaphragms are fine. Considering that it is the original S3driver that were not modified (they have a tone of spider net in the throats) I might presume that they have original S3 cones – the aluminum with plastic suspension. If it so then it will not be the contemporary “white” suspension but “clear” suspension – that was designed for high power applications…

Anyhow, if you go for it then you will need to find two metric bolds and use them as binding terminals. You would need also clear up the gaps and align the cones - I am sure they will have dead cockroaches in the gaps. I would estimate that it will take one trip to you local shop that sells bolts and one wasted evening to clean the driver and to make it operational. Frankly, this is one of the reasons why I propose you to deal with it as in the end I will have a perfectly operational driver. BTW, if someone would offer the same to me then I would refuse as what would I do if I like the driver but it is the time to send it back?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 8
Post ID: 9765
Reply to: 9660
More thoughts on Titan
fiogf49gjkf0d
The other possibility is that the MF issues can be the problem with the JBL 2441 rather than the amplifier, and it would behoove me to explore the Vitavox driver.

Adrian
02-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 9
Post ID: 9771
Reply to: 9660
Titan DSET ideas
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
However, you need to find out how much power and how much gain you need for you subs and your room. Borrow for someone any 6C33C and measure how far the 6C33C will be from class A2 at a level of max tolerable bass in your room.
Well, I will just need to build a new 6C33C amplifier. Will need some good quality tube sockets. Where did you get yours?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
If you are taking about loading demand then it is more complicated subject. The keys in the decision to go for separate DSET for upperbass in not LF but HF. You need to know if the inductance of your upperbass returns anything into MF channel; THAT was why I separated my upperbass and MF – I have written about it as it was the issue with my Fane 8M driver.
Yes, I remember. This was my idea here as well.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
If you have the same problem than a simple solution would be to add just one more 2A3 with own OPT and driver from the same driver and driver from it the upperbass. In your case it would be even simpler. You have two stages on two halves with 6SN7 with too much gain. You might convert your amp into two stages 6SN7-2A3 and make each halve of 6SN7 to drive own 2A3: one upper bass and another MF. All that you need to worry if your PS would care another 60mA. In this setting you might load MF 2A3 with respect of best harmonics and the upperbass 2A3 with respect of most power (if it were necessary)
This is a good idea since the 6SN7's are really in excess here. It is not perfect since the power supply demand is a concern and ideally I would think a separate power supply would be best, but it might be a good way to test it out.

Adrian
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