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06-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1
Post ID: 7590
Reply to: 7590
Rachmaninoff, PC 3; Kondrashin/Van Cliburn
PCA LM 2355 (2-channel mono)

I don't listen to a lot of Rachmaninoff, buut I would if more of it was done like this.

Here is a young Van Cliburn, just back from his USSR tour, playing at Carnigie hall with Kiril Kondrashin directing the Symphony of the Air, May 19, 1958.
 
Kondrashin does a decidedly "narrative" reading here, and Van Cliburn is simply magical.  The orchestra is just right, very "considerate", but also very "conscious", well under Kondrashin's direction, and he well knows the score, along with apparent extreme sensitivity to Van Cliburn.  The interplay is quite special.

Throughout the concerto Kondrashin typically plays "under" Van Cliburn, in terms of pitch.  Then, in the third movement, Van Cliburn keeps dropping along with Kondrashin until Van Cliburn -  somehow - seems to make his piano "drop a full register".  I have no idea how he does it.  It is not at all gimicky; it is very, very cool.

I liked this concerto the first time I heard it, when I was a kid.  It seemed very "progressive" to me at the time.  I may not have listened carefully to this piece since, until now.

Crazy beautiful.

Paul S
06-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 7591
Reply to: 7590
Clibun and the Lhevinnes.
I never was a big fun of Cliburn, if you like him then try to found Josef Lhevinne… much more interning. I do remember however that Cliburn’s Rach3 was OK. If I am not mistaken Cliburn played alternative slow cadenza in fist moment – a rarity at that time – and he did a very nice job, though I think in the way how it become fashionable to play nowadays- with very slow exit from the cadenza – I like it better.

Generally it is interesting to see how tasted to Rach3 are changing with time. The more I listen the Third the more I am in bad with Gieseking with Barbirolli…

The cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 7592
Reply to: 7591
The speed of art
Yes, you remember correctly; this begins quite slowly; but it is so "charged" with content that it does not "seem slow" so much as it draws you in.  I usually adapt my listening to whatever cadence the artist chooses, at least give them the benefit of the doubt for a while.  I am not so much a "Cliburn fan" as I simply listened to and appreciate this great playing and this great reading and rendering of a great concerto.

I know a lot of people - especially young people -  don't get Gieseking, but I happen to like a lot of his work. But I'm not sure he ever played slow?  I can only guess how quickly Barbarolli and Gieseking together would blow through the Rach PC3.

I always felt like some fast players, like Gieseking and Hofmann, at their bests better facilitated real music than others who merely "affect" any given tempo; just like the idiots who make a big show of crossing hands...  please...

I sometimes fear that some great music will just "get lost" to a generation or so.

Forget it's Cliburn.  It listens good.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 7593
Reply to: 7592
How it might be done.
Paul, did you ever heard the Barbarolli and Gieseking? Gieseking painlessly slow opens the first movement but he does it so smart, so tactful, so sensitive and so ingenusly that it opens a totally new meaning how it might be done. The play has a lot of mistakes (it is live) and a lot of very unusual turns and twists but they all works absolutely wonderfully. BTW, it was played with Rachmaninoff himself among the audiences.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 7844
Reply to: 7591
(VERY) Belated Lhevinne response

I'm afraid I post like I do lots of other things, meaning while I am doing lots of other things, as well.  Plainly, I dropped the ball on your Lhevinne reference, Romy, and I mean to address it now.

Maybe I'm wrong, but reading your post again, I take it as a little bit sarcastic with respect to Cliburn, the way he could sometimes be a bit "too much", like my "crossing hands" sarcasm from another post.  And, FWIW, I agree; but certainly not in the cited performances.

Just so you know, I love Josef Lhevinne!  Sure, it's "over the top"; but in his case, it works for me; if he is not THE original he is certainly AN original.

Best regards,
Paul S

Page 1 of 1 (5 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Today: Rachmaninoff in America..  The Corelli’s Variations and sense of humor....  Musical Discussions  Forum     4  32201  12-18-2004
  »  New  Recommend me works to get into Myaskovsky and Glazunov..  Experiences...  Musical Discussions  Forum     8  47649  08-09-2005
  »  New  An evening to remember - Russian National Orchestra per..  Re: Prokofiev: Romeo and Juliet...  Musical Discussions  Forum     7  46933  03-29-2006
  »  New  Spivakov, NPoR Orchestra and Olga Kern..  The Purchase disaster....  Musical Discussions  Forum     12  68553  03-16-2007
  »  New  Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No.5..  The Russian Premiere....  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  19752  01-18-2009
  »  New  Getting Started with Myaskovsky..  Myaskovsky Orgy...  Musical Discussions  Forum     35  210411  09-18-2006
  »  New  The today’s take on Rachmaninoff’s Third...  Trophy Piece...  Musical Discussions  Forum     1  13389  09-22-2009
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