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  »  New  Today’s SACD - music for oscilloscopes. ..  Teresa Goodwin and her girly things....  Didital Things  Forum     8  71686  04-30-2005
  »  New  EMM Labs hits… the chickens...  It is in way confusing but interesting....  Audio News Forum     1  23378  02-13-2006
  »  New  The optimum Sampling Rate for bass...  Lynx can handle up to 200.000Khz...  Didital Things  Forum     3  27109  02-19-2008
  »  New  K2HD -yet, another CD format with ‘master tape’ paranoi..  K2HD -yet, another CD format with ‘master tape’ paranoi...  Didital Things  Forum     0  14422  07-09-2008
  »  New  MTT’s Mahler at 180 ghram or 180 degree?..  Although Romy raises two intriguing options......  Analog Playback Forum     1  12432  10-28-2011
  »  New  To buy an SACD Player?..  Cheap sacd players...  Didital Things  Forum     7  33369  04-02-2012
02-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 1
Post ID: 6646
Reply to: 6646
DVD for pop, SACD for classics
Hello!

I hadn´t cared about the topic for years, but recently I informed myself about SACDs and DVDs at Amazon. The product range is still ridiculous, yet I find it has at least "started to start". But it seems to have happened what I expected at the very beginning of the talk about the new formats: PCM has become the standard for pop, bitstream for classical productions. The only serious label that had supported the DVD (MDG) has also switched to the SACD.

Has anyone observed how this happened?

Oliver
02-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 6647
Reply to: 6646
SACD, DVD-A, CD - all the same if a disk involved.

The product range is unfortunately growing. I have seen quite a few recordings that I was interested but they were recorded in SACD and therefore were compromised by the format. I would not give a lot of credit to association between format and the musical genre – if some recording labels go with one or other format then it has very little to do with consideration  of actual sonic result but it is driver by other, mostly business, factors.

Here is my very brief observation of formats. There are well documented expert analyses about the SACD vs. DVD with measurements, knowledge and evidences – my observation is nothing like that. My observation is just a user experience and reflects what I personally have witnessed.

SACD – very bad format. The original, phenomenally sounding (I heard it), brilliantly conceptualized, 4-bit DSD conceived by Ed Meitner in 90s was trashed out and replaced by a cheap commercial adaptation of 1-bit SACD that is just “not enough” for good sound. There are no good sounding SACD players, not good SACD DACs, no good SACD recorders - the entire SACD world is a huge unfortunate lead astray. The PCM 16/44 layer that is typically released on the SACD disks usually is horrible.

DVD-A - strangely bad format. Any single DVD-A disk I head sounded wrong – I have no idea why. If I have a good 24/94 files and put in DVD-A disk then the quality of sound go down to drain.

CD – very bad format. 16-bit is very low resolution, it is just not enough. Still, the 16/44 file might do relatively acceptable but as soon I convert it into CD files then all quality evaporates.

Some generalizations

1)    The physical disks that require file transformation are evil

2)      Sampling rate or resolution conversion are evil

3)      Any DSP activation is evil

4)      The raw files (regardless of format) should be juts copied to disks, distributed and then just played as raw files.

The subject of change the quality of sound after a raw file was copied and re-saved is under investigation.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Telstar
Posts 30
Joined on 02-06-2008

Post #: 3
Post ID: 6653
Reply to: 6647
DVD-A should have been great but...
...But they are poorly implemented. Something to do with the 24/192 conversion. AFAIK nowadays most recordings are done 24/96, but it will eventually go up when higher resolution devices becomes the standard (I think about Prism, but theres more).

Out of my curiosity, with which spinner did you try DVD-Audio-s? I think that The Esoteric UX-01 is the current best (as transport).

I obviously agree with everything else that Romy said.
02-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Telstar
Posts 30
Joined on 02-06-2008

Post #: 4
Post ID: 6654
Reply to: 6653
An excellent reading on SACD
http://www.iar-80.com/page48.html

That made me change my mind about getting one.

It's a very long and technical read, but it is a must-read.

I'm not sure that all double format CDs are horrible on the redbook side, but i may be wrong, as my chain is not near as revealing as yours.
02-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 5
Post ID: 6656
Reply to: 6654
Sample rate conversion
No wonder 4-bit DSD sounded so good. 5-6bit ~3Mhz is how most of the ADCs and DACs work anyway. In principle I am in favour of not changing the sample rate. However the problem I see is the 7th order noise shaping. This is done by combining 3rd and 4th order noise shaping in ways that are even hard to analyze mathematically. What I find interesting is that even Sony has left the path of the true no-SRC-believers. Their new digital receivers work with 8bit ~350kHz PWM, same at TI/TacT/Lyngdorf. In my opinion this would also have been the best compromize for audio coding.
Page 1 of 1 (5 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Today’s SACD - music for oscilloscopes. ..  Teresa Goodwin and her girly things....  Didital Things  Forum     8  71686  04-30-2005
  »  New  EMM Labs hits… the chickens...  It is in way confusing but interesting....  Audio News Forum     1  23378  02-13-2006
  »  New  The optimum Sampling Rate for bass...  Lynx can handle up to 200.000Khz...  Didital Things  Forum     3  27109  02-19-2008
  »  New  K2HD -yet, another CD format with ‘master tape’ paranoi..  K2HD -yet, another CD format with ‘master tape’ paranoi...  Didital Things  Forum     0  14422  07-09-2008
  »  New  MTT’s Mahler at 180 ghram or 180 degree?..  Although Romy raises two intriguing options......  Analog Playback Forum     1  12432  10-28-2011
  »  New  To buy an SACD Player?..  Cheap sacd players...  Didital Things  Forum     7  33369  04-02-2012
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