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  »  New  Srajan, 6Moons, sex industry and sapphire horns..  Unless the objective is .......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  44925  07-11-2006
  »  New  Another electromagnet driver: Great Vintage Loudspeaker..  An excellent question!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     17  102109  05-08-2009
  »  New  Eat your heart out, Mr. Romy...  Yes, that is not a simulative playback...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  19447  11-26-2009
12-27-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 6211
Reply to: 6211
Electronluv systems questions and perhaps answers

Electronluv,

I decided do not spoil the “Who built horn” thread what juts was an announcement of availability of different horn boulders. I also did not want to continue the following thread:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2653

as it was not as much about your installation but rather about the Srajan’s ignorance experiencing and assessing of horn systems. So, I am starting this thread that is solely dedicated to your installation.

I have a few questions to ask if you do not mind:

1)     Did you experiment with surface of the horns and a negative contribution of smooth surface to Sound?

2)     Since your drivers are closed then how do you vent/cool the magnetizing coils of your electromagnetic drivers?

3)     Do you care to share more information about your drivers, at least what diaphragms and suspension you use?

4)     Were the driver of your own design if you use some other know driver as an inspiration?

5)     How do you time-alignment of your channels, if you do?

6)     Can you tell what cut offs, sloops and what horn rates in your channels of your 6-way system? 

7)     Did you measure if the throat reactance of your midbass channel change when you position you MF horn?

8)     Did you detect the problems with horizontal plane offset between you two narrow-band and presumably high-slope HF drivers?

9)     Did you try to position your drivers vertically?

10)   Do bass driver use a phase plugs?

11)   I see you use a powerful transmission tube with 500W-1000W plate dissipation. Do you find it is necessary to drive your drivers with that amount if power?

12)   The Acapella ion tweeter that Srajan Ebaen was trying to plug into his “review”…. Are you over with them of Srajan brought up in your room just for sake of pictures because they are photogenic?

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 2
Post ID: 6237
Reply to: 6211
Reply
thanks

I have a few questions to ask if you do not mind:

1)     Did you experiment with surface of the horns and a negative contribution of smooth surface to Sound?

Smooth surface are fine don't waste my time on a trival matters.

2)     Since your drivers are closed then how do you vent/cool the magnetizing coils of your electromagnetic drivers?

They don't need to vent  use big magnet wire 12 to 10 gage.

3)     Do you care to share more information about your drivers, at least what diaphragms and suspension you use?

alum domes with mylar suspension.

4)     Were the driver of your own design if you use some other know driver as an inspiration?

Yes my design ,I have inspiration from ale, goto, rca ,western electric, have look inside drivers from all these companys!!

5)     How do you time-alignment of your channels, if you do?

Don't care about time aligment with horn system, have done it with ALE system with no improvement just a different sound. some speakers it makes a difference some not it is one of those things that people let there eyes do the hearing.

6)     Can you tell what cut offs, sloops and what horn rates in your channels of your 6-way system?

if my memory is right the ALE set up in cyprus big bass horn 60 or 50 hz and down those were build by kevin brooks,  6 or 12 active  crossover costumers plays with that setting.

copper big midbass horn 60 to 400hz horn cutoff 60hz , low mid small copper horn 400hz to 2k low cutoff 180hz  , uppermid 2k to 5k low cut off 1500hz and tweeter 5k and up all 6db series crossovers network at speakers all tractrix curves with modifed mouths.

7)     Did you measure if the throat reactance of your midbass channel change when you position you MF horn?

NO  .

8)     Did you detect the problems with horizontal plane offset between you two narrow-band and presumably high-slope HF drivers?

Oonce again hearing with are eyes you can find alot of sweet spots not just horizontal or vertical.

9)     Did you try to position your drivers vertically?

yes

10)   Do bass driver use a phase plugs?

Mid bass driver needs phase plug that is the part the also makes it a compression driver, phase plugs / vents like ALE GOTO OLD WESTERN E or back chambers LIKE VITAVOX ALTEC JBL / magnets, fieldcoil or alnico one is not beter just different i like field coil they let you have another tool to beable to tweek the system, current , volts and the kind of power supply.

bass drivers under 60hz the ALE and GOTO driver do not have phase plugs just small amount of compression build in to drivers. like 6 " dome down to 4" exit.

11)   I see you use a powerful transmission tube with 500W-1000W plate dissipation. Do you find it is necessary to drive your drivers with that amount if power?

Of course not that was a fun amp that used the gm 100 it only put out 20 watt max i like all DHT systems two gain stage amps with a preamp.

12)   The Acapella ion tweeter that Srajan Ebaen was trying to plug into his “review”…. Are you over with them of Srajan brought up in your room just for sake of pictures because they are photogenic?

the Acapelle are costumers chooses to use in there systems , they mix them in how they like , Were is the cogent red horn set up PIC that set up was made be electronluv ,the Acapella were use there costumer want them.

thanks

12-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 6238
Reply to: 6237
I disagree with many of your positions
Thanks. Sure I disagree with many of your positions (about horms and system setup, not drivers) but it is it your horns not mine and you are within your birthright to do whatever you wish. The only thing that would advise is to concentrate fewer efforts on implementations and more efforts on assessment of results and evolvement of reference points of assessment. Also, Josh, the concept “eyes do the hearing” that you are trying to sell yourself and presumably to others is purely your own invention and it has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 4
Post ID: 6239
Reply to: 6238
Reply
"Eyes do the hearing" is a comment geared toward you as you make alot of assumptions based on just wait you see in photo .
Your reality or  mine?
I was reading your comments on you s2 field coil and i think you have alot of good info about field coils and magnet and mabe wait is going on with feild coil drivers some wait.

thanks

12-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 6242
Reply to: 6239
It is not eyes but design principles

 electronluv wrote:
"Eyes do the hearing" is a comment geared toward you as you make alot of assumptions based on just what you see in photo.

It is not just about what I see on photo but about which design principles a given depicting presents. When I am taking about design principles I do not talk about some abstract rules but about the specifies that I personally experimented with and was able to observe success patterns. Some of then are enumerated in the Macondo's Axioms Thread:

 http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4870

In my view any serious audio with horn-loaded acoustic systems only start when the drivers are time-aligned. It is not “different sound” but rather about understanding the sonic results at a different level.  I really mean it.

At all depends at which LEVEL of reference points we are trying to evaluate results. To get sound at the level of “sound just exists” is not complicated – whatever you do will produce sound. However, trying to manage purposely the subliminal meaning of musicality require completely different methods. Time-alignment is one of many tools that are absolutely essential as subconsciously, in a frame of subliminal impact of musicality we les affected by amplitude but rather we register phase. Well, it is not exactly how it works but I do not want to go into details of this process. I juts will say that that phase anomalies are a very serious deterrence in cases when the definition of audio success is noble enough. Yes, you will find a lot of people out there who would argue that time-alignment does not mater. There are reasons why they feel so and why they are blind and ignorant in their judgment.

Anyhow, I do not do make my eyes do the hearing. If we were sitting in the same room and had your installation in front of us then I would point out the very specific and very well-defied problems that will derive from time misalignment. It is just necessary to know what to listen while we are listening, what result should be expected. I do not mane assumptions based on the photo – I made concussion about the assessment techniques you used that lead to the given design.

 electronluv wrote:
I was reading your comments on you s2 field coil and i think you have alot of good info about field coils and magnet and mabe wait is going on with feild coil drivers some wait.

I do not quite understand what you meant to say in the second part. I like your feeling that field-coil might be an addition tool to “shape” sound. Unfortunately no one approach the electromagnets from this perspective. I had/have a lot of thoughts about the electromagnets but I keep them private as there are no known to me serious collaborators who have interest to push electromagnets further then superficial hype. I personally do not experiment with electromagnets anymore and I do not see needs or interest at this point.

Rgs, the Cat

PS: If you do not mind then can you title you replies more distinctive?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Nick
Posts 3
Joined on 01-02-2008

Post #: 6
Post ID: 6267
Reply to: 6242
Heard a pair of the version with the Cogent drivers
My experience is what Romy would call primitive, but I did hear these horns and can only compare them to sound reproduction in general, not other horns.  There was a sub as part of the scheme, don't know if it was actually part of the original design.  The sound of drums were eerily real and the mids were also astonishing for someone who is used to box speakers.  The highs literally hurt my ears.  I had to leave the room.  Soundstage was very small, well within the horn boundaries, but image was incredibly precise, maybe more so than live.


01-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 6271
Reply to: 6267
It was not just Cogent/Electronluv problems but ….

… it is a sad reality of any professional demonstration.

 Nick wrote:
…The highs literally hurt my ears.  I had to leave the room… 

I do not know – I was not there but I do see very well how what you complain about as something very explainable and very predictable.

Any professional demonstration that is made with objective to impress and incentive a listener stresses nothing more than listener’s frustrations. In those installations Sound is a tradable commodity that is presented against intellectual or mental disturbance of a listener perception. Any marketing person knows that the frustrations of a shopper are the primary itches that that a product (Sound) shells address. So,… what else did you expect from Cogent of all that they were trying to do is to impress the idiots who when to that show?

Cogent have their own drivers that very much HF challenged (ironically during all of the former “successful demonstrations” no one stressed it). So, the Cogent/Electronluv bright the ambition plasma tweeter into the game. Leaving aside the fundamentals impossibility of proper integration of the tweeters into the given Cogent/Electronluv architecture they piled up the poor tweeter wherever it would looks “sexy for pictures” and then they just went to the trade show… to demo what they got… So, how a company that has a questionably performing HF solution should impress those mostly Moronic audiences with the fact that they have a new tweeter in their system. Yes you are right - they should make the tweeter very auditable – thanks God to do it with a time-misaligned tweeter is very easy.

So, I would not blame the Cogent/Electronluv system for bad HF. The bad demonstration result was intricacy built into event by the fact that the playback was demonstrated (beside all architectural issuers with tweeters) and by the fact that the playback did not depict “sonic consciousness” but rather w trying to become a “product”. A “product” by its very nature is a conciliatory action that address just a marketable demands/frustration and NOTHING else. So, I would not be too judgmental to the fact that Cogent/Electronluv highs literally hurt your ears. That is all is a part of the playbook and if you heard the numerous extremely glorious reports from many AA-level fools about the   Cogent/Electronluv Sound then you would realize that the well-oiled machine of audio idiocy is keep spinning in a right direction… Never forget that “products” are made only to fulfill the “consumer frustrations” – no other reasons. What you hear at that demo was the very exact presentation of primitive sonic level of those frustrations…

The real Sound never try to become a product… but it is a whole other subject…

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
electronluv
Posts 14
Joined on 12-27-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 6279
Reply to: 6271
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!
09-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 11713
Reply to: 6279
Electron Luv Compression Drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d

3.25" throat, 200 - 20kHz, beryllium diaphagms, radial phase plugs, field coil motor.

http://electronluv.com/html/drivers/My%20Gallery/index.html

Page 1 of 1 (9 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Srajan, 6Moons, sex industry and sapphire horns..  Unless the objective is .......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  44925  07-11-2006
  »  New  Another electromagnet driver: Great Vintage Loudspeaker..  An excellent question!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     17  102109  05-08-2009
  »  New  Eat your heart out, Mr. Romy...  Yes, that is not a simulative playback...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  19447  11-26-2009
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