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08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 1
Post ID: 5170
Reply to: 5170
From Newton to Einstein
I've been listening to my system tuned by Romy.  So far, this is what I think is happening.  I don't want look like a kid puffing up to look like an adult, so will try to be simple.

The most noticeable difference is the increased dynamics and, especially, the linearity and the continuity of it.  Because of that, beside that I can hear the delicate shadings and nuances of notes and phrasings better, now I can hear how they are placed in the tapestry of the music that is structured in time and space.  "Resolution" and "Imaging" are not just how much detail you can hear or where an instrument is located, but the ability of the system to resolve and image how they are placed in the tapestry of the musical structure (or lack of thereof) given by the performance, and communicate it to the listener.  I think the dynamic capacity and its linearity/continuity is a crucial factor for a system to make it happen.  In a way, it's like the Newton Physics turned into Einstein's by time and space amalgamated in a set of equations.  Or like the difference between conductors, those who can control each sections and their phrasings (so that quieter passages can still be heard under louder passages) and those who can't (so that all the nuances are buried under the loudest passage).  While the Newton Physics can be pretty satisfying for less dynamically demanding music, it wouldn't do for those that demand more.

Of course Romy's system has it in spades and more (and I heard it multiple times), but after the initial shock of encounter, I've completely surrendered and was never be able to listen to it from audio perspective, unless he asks me specific audio questions (of course I gave him stupid answers!).  Most of the time, I was enjoying the music he played for me.

Romy, I guess you are operating under the Strings Theory now.  I'll need some more time to really digest Einstein's.

Yoshi
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 5172
Reply to: 5170
From wrong to right.
Yoshi,

it has nothing to do with Newton and Einstein. You playback just moved from a typical random and brainless stacking up of accidental drivers, horns and enclosures in “as is” order into something that was more or less orchestrated with intention and with the recognition of actual results. Frankly speaking I was not thrilled with your luck of dissatisfaction before. The level of seriousness with which your playback was organized was not different then that Edgarhorns guy from AA that I mentioned today. I found it very unfortunate also (at least from the perceive of audio interests) that you celebrate your sonic advance in your room but at the same time you did not make efforts to learn what was wrong, how we fixed it and what is responsible for the positive moments that you are founding you playback now.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 5173
Reply to: 5172
The answer is...
What was wrong was that I do not have a proper evaluation method/ability of Sound and piled up my system around the Reps driver with an intention to overcome the obvious shortcomings under the way I've been listening to jazz.  The result was what we Japanese call "Kamaboko" (mid-rangey) sound with shelved down top and bottom and dynamically challenged (in my application) Reps driver in its center.  There were also phase anormalies that you checked.  All these, causing compression, coloration and imaging anomaly.  We (you) fixed it by extending the energy balance more to both frequency extremes and correcting the phase as much as possible (12db to 6db) by manipulation of crossover point and attenuation settings, and replaced the Reps driver with more dynamically linear and less colored LE-8T (2115).  The flatter ("proper" in your words) and extended energy balance is responsible for the overall increased dynamic capacity, and the corrected phase and replaced mid-range driver are responsible for the dynamic linearity, proper imaging and less coloration.

Wheu....

Yoshi
08-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 5174
Reply to: 5173
I disagree with all of it.
 yoshi wrote:
What was wrong was that I do not have a proper evaluation method/ability of Sound and piled up my system around the Reps driver with an intention to overcome the obvious shortcomings under the way I've been listening to jazz.  The result was what we Japanese call "Kamaboko" (mid-rangey) sound with shelved down top and bottom and dynamically challenged (in my application) Reps driver in its center.  There were also phase anormalies that you checked.  All these, causing compression, coloration and imaging anomaly.  We (you) fixed it by extending the energy balance more to both frequency extremes and correcting the phase as much as possible (12db to 6db) by manipulation of crossover point and attenuation settings, and replaced the Reps driver with more dynamically linear and less colored LE-8T (2115).  The flatter ("proper" in your words) and extended energy balance is responsible for the overall increased dynamic capacity, and the corrected phase and replaced mid-range driver are responsible for the dynamic linearity, proper imaging and less coloration.
I do not know where it all might be going but I disagree with what you are saying.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 5
Post ID: 5175
Reply to: 5174
Intention and recognition
Lack of "intention" and lack of "the recognition of actual results"?  I don't know where this is heading either.  I'll sleep on it.

Yoshi
08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 5178
Reply to: 5175
Much deeper question then you might think.

 yoshi wrote:
Lack of "intention" and lack of "the recognition of actual results"?

Actually it is a good question and the answer sits much deeper then you think.

The high-end audio industry, by it’s stupid nature that is being cultivated in the minds of it’s weak participants, trained people to perceive the “audio results” as whatever audio elements output. The moronic industry insists that audio results are the result of audio elements but not the result of the listening awareness. The industry does it because they have already developed the propaganda framework of disinformation and deception and pre-developed an army of idiots-audiophiles who “tuned” to be deluded and mislead. So, the industry physically binds the output of audio elements with listening awareness of audio participants, making the stupid participants to feel that they have freedom or liberty. In reality the people are pre-programmed and highly predictable in this blindness. If you point out to them thier “zombieanic blindness” then they get angry…

The reality is, as many times I have written before, that there is a completely different Audio with completely differed methods to handle the audio tasks. People just do not know or understand, they just do not want to listen it as the Morons believe that they know everything. You had a preview how a playback was converted from shit (from my point of view) into a slightly more organized and more cultured substance - it took 20-30 minutes, required practically no knowledge and no experience. It has absolutely nothing to do with the “bad Reps driver” if you keep them the result would be the virtually the same. All that was necessary for your playback is just to look at it results not from a perspective: “It is result” but from the perspective: “What was the result?”.

When Sound of playback became not the embraced slavery but the output of our own will and motivations then all BS goes away and we are immune to make stupid or blind audio mistakes. Then our vision and our ability to navigate playback’s Sound where it should be and our audio capacity begin to operate at completely different level.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 7
Post ID: 5182
Reply to: 5178
Listening awareness and output of audio elements
I understand what you are saying in conceptual level and I agree 99% of us are molded in the frame work of the industry, but in practice, don't we need "knowledge and experience" albeit from a different perspective (the listening awareness)?  The key word seems to be "the listening awareness".  In case of food, if we'd been fed and experienced only Fast Food junk, we may know and enjoy an exquisitly prepared cuisine but wouldn't know why it tastes good or how it is different from what you are used to.  Or even would not be able to enjoy it because it's so different.  First of all, you'd need to know there are different foods, then your taste bud would need some experience and training to fully appreciate the extent of exquisitness, wouldn't it?  Then, if you are motivated, another trial and error to change your diety at home.  Or this analogy still in the mold of "the framework"?

 Romy the Cat wrote:

All that was necessary for your playback is just to look at it results not from a perspective: “It is result” but from the perspective: “What was the result?”.


I'm not sure I understand this.  At the moment, I can only describe "It is" and "What was" in "the out put of audio elements".  What would you suggest to un-bind "the out put of audio elements" from "the listening awareness" and how do we develop "the listening awareness" further?

Yoshi

08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 5183
Reply to: 5182
Get rid of the stupid industry-implanted patterns.
Russians says: “a holly place could not be empty”.

As soon a person begin a process of detoxification form that BS that the industry for years has been implanting in the audio minds then immediately the more rational, sane and the most important natural and truly self-educational events of listening awareness begin to built themselves up….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 9
Post ID: 5191
Reply to: 5183
"a process of detoxification"
This is where I lose you, or rather, lose myself.  I can see my inner self reacting to a given performance be it live or a reproduction, but as you say, it can happen with a table radio or a car stereo too.  I can't seem to find a bridge between the realm of music and the practice of audio except the words that desribe "the output of audio element".  Say it's because I'm in the BS up to the neck, but how does one starts "a process of detoxification"?

Yoshi
09-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 10
Post ID: 5205
Reply to: 5191
My first step
Romy:

I've been thinking and thinking.  What I found at the bottom is a lack of confidence accompanied by the fear of it being exposed.  I do not have a confidence in my audio.  Further more, it was camoufraged from my own eyes by the half-assed knowledge gathered through the industry and my own half-assed experiments.  The fear of my ignorance being exposed prevented me from asking you questions, but it must've been all transparent to you once you heard my result. 

Although I doubt "the more rational, sane and the most important natural and truly self-educational events of listening awareness" would start immediately, I have a will and motivated to move forward. 

I started writing this as a personal mail to you, then thought my case might be one of the typical of today's audiophile syndrome.  So I present it here as a case study.

I know you give an honest answer to whatever the questions asked.  You do it here and did it for me for the few questions I asked.  I hope you'd still teach me when I ask you stupid questions in the future.

Yoshi
09-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 5211
Reply to: 5205
Respect
Respect, Yoshi. I'll follow your further adventures with interest.

I visit this site in the hope to learn, too. With regard to horns (and audio in general), I have much to learn indeed and Romy and other posters here are obviously ahead of me on the learning curve.
09-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Manuel


Galicia, Spain
Posts 6
Joined on 08-27-2007

Post #: 12
Post ID: 5212
Reply to: 5205
Audio

I may have a point on this

some years ago, I had some confidence with the owner of a shop, and he let me use the demo equipment, though in fact my budget didn´t allow to buy him more than a few cheap things.
one day I was psycothic listenig to some Eric Dolphy´s bass clarinet passage on the shop, I was not able to "feel" the clarinet and was turning nuts with that.

in a different zone of the shop an old man was calmly listening to some classical, he was very pleasant and quiet, and then he said: listening to music is for pleasure, not to make you nervous. 

now I look for an audio system to relax me, first I try to identify where´s the problem, what makes me feel uncomfortable, and then take my time to think how to solve it, days, weeks ...
I can live without ultimate bass extension, but I like the cellos and pianos to sound close to their reverberant-resonant way, so I avoid ultra-damped systems
I like to follow oboes, wood winds, delineating the melody, so I look for clean low mids
I like to feel inflections, texture, time, the emotional content, so I like horns and SETs, but not because they play loud, in fact my average listening level is hardly 75-80 db 
also I have found that phase-time coherence has great importance to relax me

it´s the way I like to relax at home

audio is a hobby, take your time, think what´s happening to disturb you and how to solve it before turning nuts. 

by the way, offtopic, I am a pretty ignorant about horns, recently I bought a pair of 2nd hand Avantgarde Duos, very complex speakers, and this out of phase tweeter is killing me.
Omega tweeter is in phase and is said to improve things, maybe I should save the money (I can´t get the trios bass horn inside the room, the door is too narrow)
I´ve got a bidat and a bitstream dacs, the bidat exposes the problem so meantime I use the bitstream.
a friend has built a GRF-like horn enclosure with a pair of 12" tannoy golds, let´s see what happens.



may the tracking force be with you
09-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jim Smith
Atlanta, GA
Posts 11
Joined on 10-31-2006

Post #: 13
Post ID: 5281
Reply to: 5212
Basshorns?
If you can get Trios through the door, you can get Basshorns through.

However, if you stay with Avantgarde for bass with TRIOs, two pairs of the Sub 230s (larger and much better sub than the 225) will outperform a pair of Basshorns.  Three pairs will definitely do it.

And you can place them for a more coherent sound.  The Basshorns end up being too far back in most installations.

Plus, there's really no horn loading advantage.  It's a nice name, though.


Jim Smith
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