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  »  New  Brahms 4th Symphony in its own time..  Zander and BPO might through a good play....  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  15271  02-22-2009
01-02-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 438
Reply to: 438
Best recording I heard in 2004.

I was truing to figure out what was my most impressive musical experience in just past year. After a little consideration and without naming the nominees I'm declaring the winner:

Brahms Symphony #4 by Sir John Barbirolli and Wiener Philharmoniker during thier “live” performance at Musikvereinssaal, December 1967.  This performance is practically not available now. It was released by a small Holland label (ROY 6435) with a mistaken information about the recording venue (the Hollandian Morons clamed that it was recorded at Abbey Road Studio #1 in 1990 or 20 years after Barbirolli was dead). There is no other known to me releases of this performance. It is also was available as LP by EMI ASD2433 (if someone would help me to find this record I would pay a lot of money)

Anyhow, this is an amassing performance, had and shoulders more interesting then any other Brahms #4 that I heard. The opening of the first movement Barbirolli dose something mind-bogglingly transcendent. I never hear anyone play Brahms this way and I hardly ever hear anyone do such hypnotizingly-fantastic thing with music.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 533
Reply to: 438
Is this it?

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01-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 536
Reply to: 533
Yes, Yes, Yes!
Yes, it is. Grab is with inhumane speed.  BTW, on the jacket of this CD the recording venue is incorrect. Barbirolli never recorded there with this orchestra.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-20-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 540
Reply to: 536
Thanks

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I had already ordered it before you posted your reply, luckily the reference number matched and I was quite sure it was it. Couldn't find the recording company website. It's a second hand item, decent price. I'll comment about it when it arrives, hopefully by next week.

Rgrds,

Ant
01-30-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 624
Reply to: 540
Arrived!!

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Hi Romy,

In my copy the recording info is correct, it states it was recorded in 1967 at the Marinsaal.... (whatever) and remastered later, from an EMI recording.

And going to the important. Yes, this is wonderful music, I never listened to that Brahms' with that kind of tension and generating such expectation... it's difficult to explain, it's as if the director had got the work and decided to push it to have Brahms sounding like a russian composer. I've enjoyed it a lot, especially the first movement.

Do you have more of those gems?

I've got a 3CD set of the Tchaikovski's 4,5 and 6th by the Leningrad Philarmonic conducted by Mravinsky. This is by far the best rendition of those works, especially the fourth, I've listened to up today. Any favourites you'd like to share?

Regards,

Ant
01-30-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 626
Reply to: 624
Tchaikovsky’s last symphonies.

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Yes the first movement is killer in that Brahms.

For Tchaikovsky’s 4, 5 and 6th the Leningrad/Mravinsky is altogether fine, especially the latest Japanese release of “The Originals”. The mono releases from mid 50s are better, and especially the 6th symphony

Still, here are some more interesting things in the Tchaikovsky’s last symphonies. Here are a few for start:

Sumphony #4: Kusevitsky/Boston 1949 (first movement)
Sumphony #5: Gergiev/ Vienna 1998 (first movement, big surprise!!!)
Sumphony #6: Kleiber/Paris Conservatory 1953, Masur/Leipzig 1987 (surprise)

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 627
Reply to: 626
Gergiev

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Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check them. I've always found Tchaikovsky kind of "soft-popular-easy-listening" music, but I was very wrong, it's just I didn't find good performances. The 6th is a great symphony despite that "ballet-like" third movement, although I've liked the way Mravinsky moves around it to make it fit into the rest of the symphony. The fourth movement in that rendition is really great, it's the DG recorded in 1960 at the Wembley Town Hall in London.

By the way, I'm still looking for a good Beethoven's piano sonatas cycle worth the expense.

Regards,

Antonio
01-30-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 629
Reply to: 626
Re: Tchaikovsky’s last symphonies.
Thanks, Romy,

I'll check them out

cheers , Jan
02-16-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 661
Reply to: 438
Ah, I am happy, happy, happy Cat!
Eventually I was able to fish the LP of the Brahms #4 by Barbirolli and Wiener Philharmoniker during the Musikvereinssaal 1967. I got it in UK for somewhere around $50. I have a special ever-growing shelf in my room with the best performances ever were committed to a recording media and this Brahms #4 will fill it’s noble and deserving place in there…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-17-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 663
Reply to: 661
Congratulations!

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I share your happiness, although I only have the CD I can understand you, that 4th is wonderful.

Would you share with us what other recordings belong to that especial shelf? I'd love listening to them if they're as good as the Brahms'... or maybe better!.

Rgrds,
A

02-17-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 664
Reply to: 663
Re: Congratulations!

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Antonio,

it would take a considerable amount of time: only “selected the best performances” are 4.5 shelves with a few hundreds records. Hey, if you find yourself near US’s East Coast then let me know and I will arrange for you a listening session for… a few days… There were some occurrences when some folks stopped by for an hour of listening and ended up of spending days in here. In 2-3 weeks I will exit my engineering curve and will be back to a civilized listening business…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-18-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 665
Reply to: 664
Re: Congratulations!
I understand. I wish I could go to the States anytime soon, but I'm afraid I need more holidays. In any case maybe you could, from time to time, comment us about some of them, whenever you listen to them or whatever. Some Beethoven, Mendhelsson, Brahms, Tchaikovski, Mahler or Bach? ;-) Just for starters ha ha ha.

Rgrds,

Antonio
04-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 13
Post ID: 4278
Reply to: 438
Brahms 4th
Have you heard Kent Negano's version?
04-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 4284
Reply to: 4278
...the Fourth...
 Stringreen wrote:
Have you heard Kent Negano's version?
Nope, I am not familiar with Kent Negano well. BTW, did you hear the Fourth by Victor de Sabata's with Berlin Philharmonic from 1939?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
amperidian
Toronto, Canada
Posts 8
Joined on 11-10-2006

Post #: 15
Post ID: 4524
Reply to: 665
music

For Beethoven, piano concerto's try Martha Argerich with Claudio Abaddo.

Consider Prokofiev's symphonies conducted by Gergiev with the LSO, if you like Russian music ... of course pretty much all of V. Gergiev's material is top notch.

Also worth your time (if you don't already have them) are Mozart's piano concertos by Geza Anda ... simply one of the best.  Alternatively you can try Barenboim or Perahia, but Anda rules.

Try some E. Satie when you get a chance, and skip the childish E. Thibodet ... try Pascal Roge for a deeper understanding of Satie's gymnopedies and gnossiemes.  My favorite.

06-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 4527
Reply to: 4524
Mussorgsky-Mahler-Stravinsky conducting line.
Was Argerich and Abbado the artistic match made in haven? The best play that Argerich ever released on record was with Claudio Abbado....BTW, I usually am very cooled in whatever Gergiev does...

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
amperidian
Toronto, Canada
Posts 8
Joined on 11-10-2006

Post #: 17
Post ID: 4529
Reply to: 4527
abbado/argerich/gergiev

yeah, Argerich and Abbado have a certain chemistry together ... I think they go way back, if I'm not mistaken they went to school together ... and I think Abbado did study the piano there as well.

Gergiev??? I enjoy his interpretations.  To me Russian music is not about joy and musicality (unless you specifically consider Tchaikovsky), but instead it tends to portray the bleak and tragic history of that nation and the iron will that was forged through it.  I find Gergiev's interpretations of Shostakovich 5th and 9th are very much in sync with that era.  The recent Prokofiev release is also quite good.  There is a release of Verdi's Requiem with him conducting.... which features Bocelli ... so that's a total write off unfortunately.  The best piece (by far) is his rendition of Sheherezade ... in typical Gergiev fashion ... grave, dynamic impact with iron-like control, yet musical and subtle with finesse when called for.  I think it is very hard to balance those elements and right now nobody does it better than Gergiev.  Just my personal opinion.

Any suggestions are always welcome.

06-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 4531
Reply to: 4529
The predictably-abrasive and clichéd-articulated Gergiev

 amperidian wrote:
…in typical Gergiev fashion ... grave, dynamic impact with iron-like control, yet musical and subtle with finesse when called for.  I think it is very hard to balance those elements and right now nobody does it better than Gergiev. 

Amperidian, sure I know where you are coming from and I do admit that Gergiev has some interesting recordings (like anyone else). He is unquestionably is a world class conductor but my “issues” with him that for whatever reasons his dynamic and enunciated play is not necessary sound rights to me. I might appreciate what he is trying to do but I very frequently do not appreciate hot it turn out to sound. His inflections sound in many occasions artificial and too-simulated. They are affective but they called attention to themselves creating “micro-process for the sake of the possess themselves”. It gives me some thrill and listening “kick” but it is not the feeling that I’m looking for in musicality.  Gergiev play is great for encores or for Boston Pops for showpieces but not necessarily for the rest music.

Sure I very much generalize and perhaps in the area where I should not generalize but this is general feeling that I have about Gergiev. BTW, for whatever reasons I more appreciate Gergiev as opera (not with Russian cast though – they have no good singer nowadays) or accompaniment connector, where the Gergiev-things are diluted by none-Gergiev-things…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
amperidian
Toronto, Canada
Posts 8
Joined on 11-10-2006

Post #: 19
Post ID: 4701
Reply to: 4531
gergiev
Very interesting point about Gergiev.  I do not dispute it.  I just know that at present time some of the work released by him is very pleasing to me. That does not limit me to only listening to what Gergiev is doing.  For example he has released his version of Sheherezade on philips label but I also have (and enjoy) a less "enunciated" version by Serebrier on reference recordings label, although maybe only 2/10 times at this point.

I still have a long way to go in classical music, to understand and appreciate works presented in a coherent, understated manner which (unlike many audio examples) do not seek to impress or WOW the listener.  I am beginning to find out that such works are more rewarding in the long run, after the initial WOW wears off ... when these works become just an item on the shelf.  That's where Geza Anda and Pascal Roge have provided me with invaluable gems.

As for Russian opera cast ... nothing really special these days.  The real stength of Russian opera singers has always been in the baritone range and occasionally in the tenor range also, but very rarely have they produced anything special in the female repertoire (contralto, soprano, mezzo-soprano). 

Speaking of impressive technical skill ... I just listened to Cecilia Bartoli's Vivaldi Album released under decca label.  Although very proficient in the technical area, to me it sounds very much like she is missing the whole point of Vivaldi's music.  I am not a huge fan of mezzo-soprano anyways, and I much rather prefer Marie-Nicole Lemieux (contralto) singing in Vivaldi's Orlando Furioso opera released under the naive label or Deborah York (soprano) singing in the Antonio Vivaldi Complete Sacred Music set released under hyperion label.  These two examples, to me at least, bring me much closer to what I think Vivaldi originally intended for his music to sound like ... even though they don't WOW me like Batoli tries to.

I think your point is valid nonetheless ... but I am still going to hear Gergiev in the fall when he's due to arrive in Toronto along with the rest of the community

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07-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 4702
Reply to: 4701
The Cecilia Bartoli's things…

 amperidian wrote:
Speaking of impressive technical skill ... I just listened to Cecilia Bartoli's Vivaldi Album released under decca label.  Although very proficient in the technical area, to me it sounds very much like she is missing the whole point of Vivaldi's music. 

Interning, I have the very similar feelings about Bartoli. I own quite a number of her recordings and was twice of her recitals. The techniques she demonstrates were nothing short of unparalleled. However, while I was sitting at the concert and I hardly felt it was musical – it was rather an operatic freak show. I kind of get her  since then as  a "very dry dramatically" – good for tweeters time ailment only. Of curse I am kidding, Ms. Bartoli know what she does and she is perfectly capable to do the “musical things” but in any joke there is juts a fraction of joke….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 14867
Reply to: 438
… and by the King of Tension of cause…
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"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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