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  »  New  How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers..  I will do it when I have time....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     183  1002736  02-28-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors..  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  10065  03-16-2011
02-15-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 3746
Reply to: 3746
Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality

As some of you know I’m playing last couple days with Red 10” Tannoys from 60s. My selection of 10” was not accidental -I would like to get as less as possible of that “Tannoy bass” but I did run very far  the “Reds” turned out to have 27Hz open air resonance – juts 1Hz above the 15”…. not good...

My first reaction when I got them was my absolute thrill about the enclosure. It is 21x21x28m sealed and it made SO SMARTLY (for a sensible mind that I undoubtedly possess ;-) that I feel it find myself more to valuable the cabinet then the drivers. Yes it “responses” like a freaking shoebox or like a shattered guitar deck.  Anyhow, the subject of the Tannoys enclosure I would like to live alone.  It is another whole universe…

What I would like to share would be my negative observations about my Tannoy. Sure, there are great numbers of positive moments in the Red’s Sound. They are known for whoever is able to get Sound out of the Tannoys and I WILL NOT repeat those positive things. So, after the two days of working, trying to get the best out of my Reds, finding a very cool place for them in my room (this is absolutely critical!) I sat to listen some music. The Reds were driven by a fill-range Melquiades with plate loaded at 850Ohm. Here are some of my negative observations that I scratch in my log (my common practice) during my listening..

1) A 15W SET is not enough. Sure, it produced enough volume for my room but this SET does sound better with more sensitive load, not to mention that volume is not important.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3688

With my Milq’s 15W I have no problems with the Tannoy’s dynamic or compression, in fact it is exceptionally good for 93dB-sensitive speaker. However, the HF do have that “yellowness”. I call it the “fried tone of Autumn Sound” and to me - it is undeniable evidence that a SET drive inefficient load. Perhaps I need to load my output stage more and go for 500-600 Ohm on plate. I would get some power  this way and it look like the driver harmonically might handle more plate loading , however I did not try it so far. Stull, I have a feeling that a few watts more might not do the justness and to drive the older Tannoy Red with a SET and to “get the sound in the way how it should be” it might require to use an amp of 30W-40W. Here is where the transmission tube most likely should be used…

2) For whatever reason the Reds are super sensitive to the Melquiades plate. It is actually so sensitive that it was even laughable. Changing the plate current for 5mA affects sound very tangibly. I was listing it and kept wondering. Usually it happens when plate loading is way out the correct dumping and it might be the case. Well, since Milq allow to gradually loading of plate from 34:1 to 4.25:1 (thanks to LL1627) I will figure out. With 34:1 ratio I might drive that 2.5Ohn voice coil directly without any Tannoy’s transformer…. Will see….

3) The infamous Tannoy bass is freaking irritating! I never linked it and now I actually go annoyed by it. Yes, the Tannoy’s bass (actually it is not the Tannoy-only bass but the very smartly-resonating cabinets bass; some other have it as well – Vitavox for instance) is a phenomenal audio-hoax. It is superbly difficult to accomplish and it is amazingly pleasant to experience but… to see at a freak-show a woman with 4 ears or a man with 3 legs perhaps is an “amazing” experience as well, so what? With all beauty of that Tannoy’s bass and the Tannoy’s lower midrange (in original enclosure only) I felt that after a few CDs that this honey tasted bass begin to annoy me. The problem is that in some music and some recordings it “works” and in some music/recordings that bass actually sound ridicules. In fact when  this bass dose not work I instead of listening music get constant turning my listening attention of that artificial bass glorification… Unfortunately it is imposable to shut down that “honey bass exaltation” and it is unfortunately ever-present in ANY music, any instrument, any singer, any orchestra, any performing hall…. It is what I call for years as “the Dean Reed tone”. The Americans might not know this performer but he is actually an American singer…

4) In the end I did surmised for myself that from what I heard the Tannoy can not handle complex music. Perhaps, it relates to the fact that I have no power to driver  the “Reds” with my amp but so far, with complex and demanding marital (and I do not mean just volume), the Tannoys get crashed and “go shallow”. I kind of accustomed that Macondo swallows absolutely everything and the Tannoy’s frightening of “complexity” is not what I like. Tannoy acts very interesting: it is it very detailed and very precise but when a complexity grows it begins to paint the Sound with larger and larger brushes, building up more anti-detailed Sound. It is not necessary a bad thing but I am not tuned to this type of presentation. So far I feel that Reds are a good solution for quartets or quintets but even Cecilia Bartoli with a small group of barokko instruments was able to stress the Reds up to the point where speakers were slightly “loosing”…

This is all for now….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 3747
Reply to: 3746
My 15¨Golds are probably on the way out
I am using them with 200 w/channel SS amp in very large sealed cabinets.  The room they are in is quite large and the honey bass has been less of a problem than the MF tone.  When I play my bartoli baroque CD (live in italy),  dynamics are quite good, but instruments, especially her voice, seem to be trapped at same time. There is very little freedom in her singing, which through the S2s is quite playful, almost "swingy".  I've heard her sing live a couple of times. 

I did put the Tannoy's into a smaller room at first, it was very exciting to listen to the start of the Bruckner 7th, terrifying actually, but the crescendos started to sound like New Age music gone mad.  In fact if I take a look right now at the CDs piled up around the tannoy installation it turns out they are nearly ALL solo piano recitals, cupla of jazz pieces, and a few sonates for cello and piano.  There you have it.

I figured I just don't have the right cabinet for the tannoy's, so I'll be watching to see if you find the solution for your REDs or if you give up. 

thanks,

R Weissman
02-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 3748
Reply to: 3747
How to cure US politick with … the Tannoys

 RonyWeissman wrote:
…it was very exciting to listen to the start of the Bruckner 7th, terrifying actually, but the crescendos started to sound like New Age music gone mad…. In fact if I take a look right now at the CDs piled up around the tannoy installation it turns out they are nearly ALL solo piano recitals, cupla of jazz pieces, and a few sonates for cello and piano.

Wow, Rony this is exactly how a great audio literature should be written!!! I had absolutely the same feeling and I was under impression that my little 10” Reds sink Melquiades. You have 15¨Golds and drive them with 200W SS. It is a perfect match for them but still you report the same effect. Would it be something inherent in the Tannoys drivers? I have a long and completely flimsy theory about it. I feel that ANY single point source driver chokes with “big sound”. However, when you have multiple of drivers then they form a frequency-dependant line-arrays and it virtually extends the size of the transducers, plus it has many other benefit of the cylindrical waves.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
I figured I just don't have the right cabinet for the tannoy's, so I'll be watching to see if you find the solution for your REDs or if you give up.

I will not be searching any further solutions for solution for Reds. They will be in this “idiosyncratically resonating” Tannoy’s original feeble cabinet and I am not touching it. The only thing that I might play will be amplification… all the rest I will keep it as is. I found some very new and very interesting ways to USE those Tannoys but it is too new way of thinking for we I need some time to figure out what it doing on. I am sure I will be reporting the outcome. No mater what the Reds are wonderful for certain things. For instance is I want to listen some News via a republican radios stations then by playing the news it via the Tannoys the voices of the broadcasters do not sound as revolting as they usually are. For instance last night I was listening some Fox New and they proudly announced that some kind of next retard in Senate of in House poser in odder to fight with homosexual marriages to oblige all married couple to have children. … and you know what? When you hear the news like this via Tannoys then those news do not sound as idiocy but rather as a “gentle encouragement”…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-16-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 3761
Reply to: 3748
But they are still very nice, which is annoying
I hope you do find some amplification that works, or new "way" of using the tannoy, as these driver still have several tricks up their sleeves, especially when compared to the hordes of mass crap that's for sale.  What you refer to as the "deen reed" sound is highly enjoyable when listening to, say, charles mingus "the saint and the sinner lady" or duke ellington "blue,black beige".  My horns pull apart these performances too much. 

As you mentioned above, the dynamics are superb on the drivers, but there is something going on not unlike what happens with Denon dl-103s...you can get sucked into the sound but when you put on a tonally accurate cartridge you are feeling a little silly about the Denon.

What about your friend that has a line-array of tannoy's, what sound is he getting?
02-16-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 3763
Reply to: 3761
Sure they do have some tricks up their sleeves.
I have actually a LOT of interest to observe how those cabinets are resonating. To run the speaker off a generator, monitoring the cabinet’s resonances, correlating it with the driver resonances and with general Sound the system produces is very-very fascinating. It in fact open a totally new for me way of thinking about loudspeaker design. I never though that a hugely resonating enclosure might be so interestingly used (if it is done properly). I had no experience with it before and now I very pleased to discover new very interesting directions…




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-16-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 3765
Reply to: 3763
does different wood influence sound ?

Romy

i will start building my first hornspeaker, going from theory ( surfing the net ) to practice. i am not pretentious regarding the result, i am very aware of my knowledge limitations and lack of experience, as i am just in the beginning. but the way is to try things out, and learn with the mistakes, and try to do things better  next time. As i am a machine designer, i love to design, and try to come up with something, that looks good too. The subject of the selection of wood interests me. Bert from Bd-design uses plywood for his Swing cabinets, and says :

The ultra rigid construction of the SWING system is achieved through use of multiple parts, CNC-routed from specially selected plywood. Each pair of the basic SWING enclosures is made from 154 parts involving 340 holes and 138 grooves - a very complex puzzle! The resulting enclosure plays a large part in the SWING's natural tonal character without adding any disturbing "noise" to the music.

What i do not understand, if the intern of the cabinet is damped with tyrofoam panels, do these not absorb the backfiring sound and most cabinet resonances ? so how does than the cabinet still play a role of the tonal character of the speakers ?

Angelo
 
audio voice amadeo 1.jpg

02-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
starboy
Posts 23
Joined on 09-10-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 3800
Reply to: 3746
Tannoy Barkingside

My preferred type of speaker is a full range ribbon, though I've always had a monkey/Tannoy on my back which is surprising as I don't really care for box speakers.

I've heard many over the years but I was never really that impressed but wanted a monitor type speaker with some weight behind them. Tannoys became the speaker I wanted to pursue to achieve that end.

I now have a Tannoy 2528 driver that has been re-paper coned and a Chester cabinet braced with 3/4 of an inch of oak. Recently added has been a ribbon super tweeter from Townshend Glastonbury speakers. They are a bit of a hybrid now hence the name 'Barkingside'.

Increased speed with tighter bass and a more focused soundstage is the result. I have no means of measuring them etc etc other than my own trusted ears just as I like it.

Rgds all


Tannoy 1.JPG

IMGP2685.JPG

02-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 3801
Reply to: 3800
The Red’s Tweeters

Actually it is good that you reminded me about the Tannoys as behind my recent paranoia with the “Water Drop” tweeter I forgot about the beauty that blessed my life. I am taking about the “older” Tannoy’s tweeters. What is magnificent sound!

I’m not an expert with Tannoys but friends on mine who are suggested me to look at the tweeters of the Tannoy’s from 60s. I did and loved it tremendously. Sure they do not have those “extrasensual benefits” that I am getting recently form RAAL’s ribbons (because Tannoy do not have a full blown midrange under them) but still the Tannoys compression tweeters do phenomenally good for what they do.

Sure, me, being me, hearing the result I was not able to help myself and I decided to look what they did. The irony is that what I saw in there made me very prod about myself – I actually re-invented some of the things they did in 2003. I have in one back-plate of my Vitavox S2 a 1/16” hole and I was trying to modify/tune the back-chamber cone damping by charging the air resistance of that hole, - I have this idea stolen from AudioTechnica headphones. Although I was able to vary the Vitavox S2 sound to great degree but I never was able to navigate Sound to the direction I intended. The Tannoy tweeter did the same only they have their cone, suspension and entire assembly initially designed in context of that semi-sealed back chamber. And they dot a very good sound out of their tweeters!!!

Juts for sake of pure audio pornography: here are my 10” Reds from 1960s in resonant sealed 6.5cub/feet. They came with a sexy front door that I removed….




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 9
Post ID: 3802
Reply to: 3801
nice photos
sorry to pollute this thread, but I have to say...that is that is one reaally cute kitty kat you got there!!
02-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 3814
Reply to: 3801
Tannoy 10” Red (60s) as it shown in the picture above




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 4079
Reply to: 3800
The Summer Monitors?
 starboy wrote:
… though I've always had a monkey/Tannoy on my back which is surprising as I don't really care for box speakers..
I am playing now with something similar. I have a small sealed monitor 14 by 24 with an unavoidable 10” Red and it is interesting to see what it does. What I learned is hat the key to make to sound OK is the damping of the box. Too strong damping yield lower bass and actuate the primary resonance, converting the Red into contemporary crappie drivers. Too little damping and the box begin to kick in the picture. The perfect damping, as I see it, (for this driver) is when the primary resonance is “spreader” well into the upper bass and lower MF but without compressing staring. I think if the correct damping is found for the given box and for the given box constriction techniques then it the smallest Reds in a sealed box could do quite well.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers..  I will do it when I have time....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     183  1002736  02-28-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors..  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  10065  03-16-2011
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