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01-12-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,672
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 25750
Reply to: 25750
How the things are getting so much out of hands?
I am not following the products as I use to do in past, do not buy anything in audio and do not look forward to. Sometimes I look on-line what is our on in audio industry and what is more and more amazes me the level of obnoxiousness , impunity and grotesque the audio industry feels about itself. Robert Harley writes about some kind of new Magico M6 loudspeakers, admitting that it is not pushing the envelope in any performance direction that  Mr. Harley cares about but he still feels it is still a good bet for near $200K. I wonder where is the threshold that would make the industry gatekeepers to feel that they are along with integrity and common sense are throwing the baby with the water or rather accepting any dirty water for the sake of a proverbial baby? 

I do not question the Robert Harley’s finding and I do not question the Magico M6 performance. I do not care neither about Mr. Harley running his very public mouth nor about the Magico entire company that I hate for years (not so much as the company but their owner, who is asshole). Still, I post a question: where are we as “hobby” if an averagely performing loudspeaker today costs $200K and it considered as a norm.  It is not that the prices rise, the inflation and that $10K thirty years back is like $100K today. The 30 years back a CD cost $15 and it is exactly how much we pay today. The Brahms Second Symphony 30 years agon was exactly where it is today and your desire to hear it when you push play button did not change the value. They, the industry, is trying to convince you that the cost of the admission to the listening of high-end ceremony drastically increased but it is not actually true as the quality of the high-end ceremony serving DID NOT change during the same last 30 years. So, if today high-end industry in trim of quantity and quality delivery the same experiences as it was when the prices were 10 less then why would the prices need to be 10 higher today? Is it about prices or values? 

We moved to High-Resolution and different sampling audio with arguably better than it was 30 year back. Still, we do not pay for digital more then we pay 30 year back. We however feel that it is justifiable to pay premium for today’s speakers, turntable, tonearms, records, cables and a  few other purely audio items despite that 30 year ago they were arguably better and despite that some of the most evolved use folks very much hunt 30-100 years old audio products and feel that they way over-perform the today products. 

What I am trying to say is that the audio people need some kind of “Bose” event, when that mass-audio company make the whole industry to shut up about itself for good. Let pretend that some kind of pro-audio company that makes $600 loudspeakers make a calm that their product well more superior then $350K high-end industry flagman product. Let the high-end industry to rebuttal it on records. And then the sue the shit out of that high-end makers, making then to proof anything admirable in the court of law. I would love to see all those audio bullshiters  with licensees of impunity and corruption to be actuals responsible for the words. 

The $200K for an ordinary performing loudspeaker that no one will remember next year? Yep, it is what you allow to be…. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,222
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 25751
Reply to: 25750
2020 Hindsight
Not sure of the cost of advertising in the "big audio journals", but it seems "the companies with money" are always trying to maximize return on investment, like any "good" business venture does. One popular strategy is to "get a name, then reel 'em in", and it seems to work at any price point.  It's been a toss-up for many years whether the best way to sell audio products is with "product development" or advertising hyperbole, with the former seeming to be either rudderless or trend/feature driven, and the latter the same old shit, basically foaming at the mouth that's "endorsed"/promoted by paid spokespeople. As we note often around here, just listen to the "music" the "manufacturers" choose to "demonstrate" their products. I suppose this means that people who buy their stuff also listen to this "music", if only for the purpose of reinforcing their self-imagined places in the crowd, in some sort of self-referential circle jerk. As for the cost of admission, the promoted notion for years suggests that working one's way to the top (or the inner circle) not only involves hitting a moving target but it gets increasingly, exponentially expensive as one gets "closer to the top". Obviously, I find it disgusting, but I'm not really surprised that $200k no longer gets you a VIP Pass. Meanwhile, my own thoughts are that the information is available to pile up and develop an acceptable system for a good deal less money, but the process begins with a candid assessment and awareness of one's personal objectives, which is pretty much the antithesis of the approach to the Inner Sanctum of "popular", consumer hi-fi. Again, Top Hi-Fi Lesson for 2020: It's Personal, and "They" can't help you get around this.


Paul S
01-13-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 319
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 3
Post ID: 25752
Reply to: 25750
Tom Danley is rocking the boat.
If I think about the last 10-20 years, the only name that keeps coming up is Tom Danley. Synergy and Unity horns and tapped horn subwoofers got a fair amount of traction in the pro sound and DIY HiFi world. Just about everything else is “old technology” more or less seriously implemented.

Danley could be the one to create a Bose event, but he is not that type of fighter.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
01-13-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,672
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 25753
Reply to: 25751
... the stupid audio propaganda...
 Paul S wrote:
I suppose this means that people who buy their stuff also listen to this "music", if only for the purpose of reinforcing their self-imagined places in the crowd….

I think this is the whole point: the place in the crowd is not as self-imagined as you feel but rather crated for them by the industry pimps. The industry folks do not promote a concept of buying equipment and some kind of custom objective to listen music but rather they created a completely separate and completely self-contained objective to acquire audio tools for the sake of   acquisition and maintaining the anti-short penis attitude status quo. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that but also, it is important to understand that this is not a process that has any finite definition. So, the actual performance of would it be Magico M6 or M334 is absolutely irrelevant as it will be always some kind of Mr. Harley who will scratch the itch of audio consumers or crate an itch for them. 
 
I wonder why I am getting upset with the fact that mediocre speaker costs now $200K and it looks line considered norm. Year back I was the person who spent this type of money for audio. I do not do it anymore, primary because I have different priorities in my life but personal preferences are not the factor in here. Even with a financial flamboyantness that might be exposed to audio spending the fact of the “brainless spending” is an assured recipe to listening failure. The industry pimps just have no tools to sell anything other than “consumption” tools and it is all that they are selling unfortunately. 
 
I have a good friend who is very prominent audio industry player. He specialized on dealing with very much high cost customers. When I asked him how much he enjoys to dealing with his customers he is telling me that he hate all those bottom eaters from internet including the folks at my site. He said that when he arrives to a home of a person who is willing to write easily a check for $300K-600K then he exposed to very different level of audio then I even imagine. I understand how he feels but there is an interesting catch into it. When I ask him if his exclusive audio clients are more advanced audio listeners then the some typical audio-spending bottom eaters who spend days and night at audiogon he admits that they are very much the same people. Then point that I am trying to make is that with all glory of high-end audio high prices there is no advancement of high-price itself and if a person has no external stimulation from Mr. Harleys then the whole industry of price forming would not exists. There is very little price difference between what Bose does, Magico dose or Danley does. But Magico has the trumpeting pimps whos job to convert the Magico produce into a separate distinctive value.  Get rid of the trumpeting pimps in audio and the prices for the high-end audio will go to Bose level. Furthers the audio people would discover that they have own minds and own ears to use instead of buying into some stupid audio propaganda.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-14-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 101
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 25754
Reply to: 25753
High End products
This situation isn't different in other High End products- I mean to convince people with big pockets to pay for high priced things. For example in car industry not everybody who buys a Ferrari, Lambo, Porcshe or any other high performance car is Lewis Hamilton. Of course there is a catch, those cars when/if asked can deliver promised performance. This is not true in audio's case.
01-14-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,672
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 25755
Reply to: 25754
My point....
 ArmAlex wrote:
This situation isn't different in other High End products- I mean to convince people with big pockets to pay for high priced things. For example in car industry not everybody who buys a Ferrari, Lambo, Porcshe or any other high performance car is Lewis Hamilton. Of course there is a catch, those cars when/if asked can deliver promised performance. This is not true in audio's case.
It is fashionable to compare the high-end audio with high performing cars but there is a very fundamental difference between them. The cars are getting better each year. No matter how you look and what price range you are in it does makes sense each 3 years to change the cars, partially because they got worn and partly because the newer cars are better by design and can deliver very much serviceable benefits. The new loudspeakers are not. As you have a sensibly made and installed loudspeaker then there is nothing that you can get in few years that would make it better for you unless you go for larger model or different topology. The loudspeaker change is reasonable only as the listening preference is changed or evolved, which is NOT why people change loudspeakers in audio. The matching of loudspeaker performance to the personal listening preferences is not a subject of audio industry awareness, I do not remember any single  audio review or marketing campaign that ever look into in the direction of personal satisfaction and addressing personal listing objectives. What we have instead is the industry pimps entrenching forged objectives into perspective customer’s brain in order to push monthly new audio products. Ask any big makers and they will tell you that as a new model is released then they unleash the whole marketing and distribution firestorm to drive the former models out of circulation. It does not happens in audio industry as the cars age and replaced gracefully and to much less degree are subjects of empty marketing and manufactured eagerness. A loudspeakers today and 30 years back serves the very same purpose and deliver the very same benefits of its owner. I am OK with the fact that some of the items are very expensive if they are unique in this performance. What I’m arguing is that $200K is quite expensive and to a degree unique price and I would be OK if some kind of exceptionally performing loudspeakers would cost as much. It is not the case here as that new Magico crap looks like was nominated even by the industry pimp and nothing remarkable but still good buy. If the same pimp would write about automobiles then it would sound like this: “This year Honda introduce new model Civic 2020 which has not as good gas manage, axillary amendments or conform to drive as  2019 but with price tag of $350K it is still a good choice if you love Toyota Corolla.” Ridicules? Well, it is exactly my point.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-15-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 165
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 25756
Reply to: 25750
Alon Wolf
But why is this guy an asshole? He seems ok in the couple of youtube videos I watched, although I did not study him in depth... On the other hand, the speakers were not my cup of tea when I heard them once for 20 minutes.
01-16-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 101
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 8
Post ID: 25757
Reply to: 25755
My point!
Dear Romy, I didn't intend to compare Cars with Audio equipment. Being more familiar with cars than audio-if I know about the latter at allSmile
I just mentioned marketing strategies for selling super expensive products. As you rightly wrote:"place in the crowd" has got big importance, as is mine is bigger than yours. I also mentioned advantage cars have got compared to Audio, is that they can deliver most of their advertised performance if the operator is able to. I must admit that in audio, marketing people's job is a very difficult. They have to sell something that doesn't exist, and it doesn't wear out!




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