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08-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 1
Post ID: 16872
Reply to: 16872
Rakeshorns
fiogf49gjkf0d
Le Horn UB 115Hz Pic 1.jpg Le Horn UB 115Hz Pic 2.jpg Le Horn UB 115Hz Pic 3.jpg
08-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 2
Post ID: 16873
Reply to: 16872
Le Horn - really Upper bass 115Hz Horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi everyone,

It is quite ironic that the day I hear from Fane telling me that the Fane 8Ms are finally ready, I should receive this update from my horn maker maestro. Russ Collinson of Layers of Beauty. Russ, if you ever read this here, please take a deep bow. Russ has been a real tower of strength not only putting up with one million questions, slight changes to the original designs, thinking about future requirements and ready to accomodate my most far-fetched notions with never a single complaint but a very welcome dose of reality where required.

This is obviously part of a bigger picture. The midrange 200Hz, 250Hz, 400Hz and 550Hz horns have been made in Germany and will be delivered shortly. In my room, I cannot accomodate the 200 Hz horns, and will need to choose between the 400Hz and 550Hz horns eventually, but at least now I have the possibility of trying different configurations in different locations instead of dreaming what they sound like. All these horns named above are tractrix but I also have a 322Hz Le Cleach which is however 55cm in diameter to play with.

The room for Le Horn is now ready except for lighting and storage for my LP/CD book collection which I would have commissioned from Russ if distance was not an issue. I normally try to keep equipment outside of the room and I have an adjoining cellar that can be used to this effect but I am not convinced this is the right solution given the use of tube amplification. The room itself acoustically is superb being part of a 5 centuries townhouse with 70cm thick exposed stone walls which present not  a single pair of parallel sides.

There are issues, complications that I am already aware of and a host of other imponderables that will come to haunt this project but I am fortunate to have found help in sometimes the most unlikely of places. I have also had to accept disillusionment. I hoped somehow against all odds that a 50Hz horn would be a possibility but I must honestly say that in this room this will not work.

So what about the Upper bass horns? They are 96cm in diameter, the mouth opening given a very slight rollover and approximately 110cm in length including back chamber. They are designed to be accomodated in a frame that is infinitely adaptable to accept pretty much any horn of any size at any height that I can throw at it and which has provision to grow in height when I move to a room with higher ceilings eventually.

The aesthetics are chosen to suit the room and nobody's personal taste including mine. I would have had the horns all in black but my wife decided that the room which has dark pink mortar and stones would accomodate it better with dark red that would match a feature wall and the spirit of the region - we are after all in the heart of the 'Route des Vins' in one of the prettiest parts of France.

I should say thank you but it is too early for that and the end is still a long way off. As Bilbo said when he set off from home after the 13 dwarfs, " we do not know where the road outside our front door will lead ."

Best wishes from Ribeauville
Rakesh



08-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 16874
Reply to: 16873
Looks pretty good.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I understand they are 110-125Hz horns, they look fine to me. The thickness of mouth I would say a bit too thin but it is trade off as the give horn has no horizontal edge which is better acoustically even though loose slightly visually.

There is one more subject that most of the people are missing. I personally located horns not in-the-walls as most of people do but my horns are extended well into my room. I feel that this sounds way deferent but this is not the point. The point is that the back of the horn in my purely visual perspective might have some kind of termination accent. I do not like the flat line as everyone do and I would like to have some kind of balancing budge on the other side around the back chamber. This is from my perspective gives some kind of harmonizing completion if the enter horn, not to mention solidify and damps the back chamber. Below are a few pictures how the end budges looks like. I feel for a horn that sites in the mid of the room it looks sexier then the straight line ending.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 4
Post ID: 16875
Reply to: 16874
Lovely rear!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:


There is one more subject that most of the people are missing. I personally located horns not in-the-walls as most of people do but my horns are extended well into my room. I feel that this sounds way deferent but this is not the point. The point is that the back of the horn in my purely visual perspective might have some kind of termination accent. I do not like the flat line as everyone do and I would like to have some kind of balancing budge on the other side around the back chamber. This is from my perspective gives some kind of harmonizing completion if the enter horn, not to mention solidify and damps the back chamber. Below are a few pictures how the end budges looks like. I feel for a horn that sites in the mid of the room it looks sexier then the straight line ending. 



Romy,

Good point.

This is actually exactly the subject of conversation I had earlier today with Russ but I was talking about 'accenting' the end of the midrange horns. For a long time I had considered having that bulge ending the 115Hz horns but for some reason mistakenly imagined in my mind that the back chamber was a cuboid design which was not a continuation of the horn but its natural and contrasting end. I like and maybe prefer the bulging back end and maybe that will better match with the bullet shape ends of the horns I will eventually have made to replace the ones I will be using to experiment for now.

Food for thought...

Best regards
Rakesh
08-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 5
Post ID: 16876
Reply to: 16875
Pics of UB115 from the front and on the lathe
fiogf49gjkf0d
Le Horn UB front.jpg Le Horn UB on lathe.jpg
09-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 454
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 16930
Reply to: 16872
Random lamination
fiogf49gjkf0d
It's too late for Rakesh, but I'd use MDF of various thickness, randomly interchanged
to avoid repetetive structures.



Cheers,
Jarek
09-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 16931
Reply to: 16930
Interesting point on randomness in horn design
fiogf49gjkf0d
N-Set,


That is a really interesting point for designs going forward; one step further would be to vary different materials for each layer.

Microsoft Excel has an easy random number generator to automate the thickness calculations. Actually getting true random numbers out of a PC is difficult due to the core design of the processor but given the small number of laminates in this project, the Excel approximation should be fine.


Rakesh does get some of this benefit given that each layer is of a different size, the relatively random composition of each MDF slice, and that there is different bonding agents both within each MDF slice and between the different layers. 
09-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 454
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 16932
Reply to: 16931
Quantum RNG
fiogf49gjkf0d
There are quantum RNG's available, unbeaten by any classical RNG just by the physics of their operation,
and you can have one for $200 or so ona PC card, but scooter I think that's
way too much. Just randomly stacking several available thicknesses should be enough if
this trick has any merit. Alternating material: I've also thought abut that but then dissmissed the idea.




Cheers,
Jarek
09-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,148
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 9
Post ID: 16933
Reply to: 16931
Reflections, Fractals, and "Random" Behavior
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am too lazy to fish it out again, but someone did a nice study on room dimensions that might partially apply here.  In this study case, the Golden Ratio was deemed sub-optimal in point of fact, which begs the question here, what is "random", in point of fact, except perspective.  Practically speaking, even if "random" is the sonic ideal, it might work out just as well to use find-able thicknesses and varying adhesives in a +/- random sequence, then play with "surface" treatments.  I will say that these horns "look thin" to me, except what the hell do I know, and what matters is how they sound in the end, anyway.  I also don't know about the driver choices...  But all this is part of the insanity of building serious horns, and there's probably no way around it.

Best regards,
Paul S
09-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 16935
Reply to: 16931
It is much more complicated then that.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 scooter wrote:
That is a really interesting point for designs going forward...

I would very much argue that it is interesting point. Not because it not interesting but to highlight the fact that this interesting point has no practical answer.

First of all in the case of Rakesh horn what N-Set proposed is not necessary. Those 115Hz Hasqiun-style horns that Rakesh emulates are well dumped with own mass and own construction techniques – layers of particles boards with lagers of proper glue are great damping environment. In addition it is juts 100Hz – not too stressful foe the horn of this design. When and if Rakesh goes for his 50Hz horn it will be much different story – in there firmness of the assembly will be much flimsier for the frequency it cares and to use randomly interchanged damping and randomly interchanged thickness will effective.

Why in such case I would argue the rational of this approach? In particularly why would I argue it if I myself used the very same approach in construction of my own 42Hz horn? The answer is that all logic that we use is purely intellectual self-gratification. Sure we can measure the resonances  in mouth but we have no mechanism to evaluate how different degree of resonances and different randomness of mass distribution in reality affect Sound.

In addition, in case of 50Hz horn there are zillion OTHER reasons why the horn sound in one way or another. How to subtract from those zillion reasons the contribution of random masses? I do not know the answer.

The problem is complicated further by the fact that the people who built many horn and try different construction methods also not able to say truths because of various reasons. It is just too complex, too expensive to investigate and in most cases not necessary or needed to wide public, therefore not worthy to invest for horn builders.

So, my attitude is following. I build my 42Hz horn and I exposed all my techniques I used. In the very end I do like how it sound but I would not name a single specific technique that I feel is responsible for the sound that I like. Furthermore, if my horn was used in playback differently then I might be less (or more) satisfied with how it sound. So, looking back to my midbass horn project I might call myself an experienced guy (it took 10 year of thinking about that horn)  but do I feel that my experience give me option to say definitely about this or that construction techniques as an assurance of proper midbass sound. I do not feel this way and therefore I would argue any certainty in large horn construction.

I have seen a lot in audio. I have seen amazingly sounding bass enclosures made with over-damped and under-damped boxes. I have seen (even owned) insanely expensive enclosure what the microscopic resonances were measured by laser readers and the enclosures still sounded like shit. I have seen the enclosures made from thin horrible wood with firmness of cardboard box and some of them had phenomenally interesting bass. I feel that there are no rules and there are no winning patters. It is very complex to foresee anything in bass resonance and I feel that empirical practicing, observing own very specific results, proper interpretation of results and then to react upon those results is the only way to accomplish Sound of own envision. I am not even mentioning that what a person envisions is a reflection of his various non-audio qualifications, but it is a while deferent subject….

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 11
Post ID: 16936
Reply to: 16935
Genesis of UB115 and a beginner's guide to horn building
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

...this interesting point has no practical answer.

First of all in the case of Rakesh horn what N-Set proposed is not necessary. Those 115Hz Hasqiun-style horns that Rakesh emulates are well dumped with own mass and own construction techniques – layers of particles boards with lagers of proper glue are great damping environment. In addition it is juts 100Hz – not too stressful foe the horn of this design. Rgs, Romy



When I obtained the spreadsheet of measurements for my 115Hz, a number of possibilities presented themselves to me, all of which were easily achievable. I could easily use alternating layers of plywood and in fact had set aside some outrageously expensive 'panzer holz' to this end (see http://www.ltlewis.co.uk/), vary thicknesses of different layers and become more anal about the throat driver interface. In the end I did absolutely nothing. I was worried about the thickness and made sure that at the throat area the horn was about 160mm in thickness and this decreases to 70mm at its minimum. Why was I happy to have the thinning at the mouth end? I did not want to give any flat surfaces where the exiting waves would reflect in a uniform fashion. I would say that any modern horn, irrespective of aesthetics considerations, should have this feature.

It is interesting that Romy mentions '115 Hasquin-style horns' that I emulate since I did indeed approach John Hasquin to see if he could undertake this project (he would not) and for advice (which he is very generous with).

John Hasquin wrote the following in response to a query I sent him and it is well worth quoting in full:

"Re: Tractrix with Lecleach


The mouth termination on the Lecleach helps to prevent defraction. This too can be avoided with the tractirx by high passing at slightly above the Fc of the horn. If you have the extra room you can use the Lecleach if you want, I didn't noticed any sound quality differecnes between the two for mid bass use. There is nothing to be gained from using other materials for the back chamber if you make it thick enough. My back chambers are 1.5 inches thick, so they are plenty stong. Using a denser material will only make an already heavy horn heavier. You can use any material you want. I like MDF because it is well dampened when layered and glued together. It is also not as expensive as plywood, or natrual woods. The AK151 should be good up to around 800Hz without too much trouble. They don't quite have the speed and snap that the Fane Studio 8M, but they are can be used. That's a decision you have to make for yourself. "

Horn lore is incremental. I agreed with most of that advice. In fact, the wall thickness of the back chambers of my UB115s are 10cm, i.e. close to 300% as thick as per JH's recommendation, based in part on what I know of the pressure that develops in the back chamber. I discarded the idea of experimenting with the AK151s in that horn based on what JH and a friend of mine in Paris told me about these drivers. I also had a look at Jeffrey Jackson's horns which are based on a slightly different approach to that recommended by JH but still does not use a full Lecleach profile. I was puzzled by this and Jean Michel Le Cléac’h confirmed that the profile is a truncated Le Cleach:

Jean Michel Le Cléac’h wrote:


Hello, The 140Hz horn commercialized by  Eleven Horn is for sure a (T=0.707 )Le Cléac’h horn but the mouth is shorten and its  roll back is quite small. This has surely been done by Jeffrey Jackson in order to have a smaller width than the complete roll back horn. See attached graph. Best regards from Paris, France




140Hz_horn Jackson truncated Le Cleach.gif


Since as JMLC himself makes clear, his calculations in themselves do not propose a re-evaluation of horn theory, but propose some advantages which mainly result from the minimisation of re-entry at the mouth, I decided to give the UB115s some of the theoretical benefits of the mouth design of a Le Cleach profile, without the concomitant increase in overall diameter of the horns, which I had set at an absolute maximum of 96cm (+ 27.3cm /2, i.e. radius of my 396Hz horns=109.5cm, with my LeCleach rollover, not more than 115cm, or + 21cm/2, i.e. radius of 550Hz horns=106.5cm


 Romy the Cat wrote:



The answer is that all logic that we use is purely intellectual self-gratification. Sure we can measure the resonances  in mouth but we have no mechanism to evaluate how different degree of resonances and different randomness of mass distribution in reality affect Sound.

In addition, in case of 50Hz horn there are zillion OTHER reasons why the horn sound in one way or another. How to subtract from those zillion reasons the contribution of random masses? I do not know the answer.

The problem is complicated further by the fact that the people who built many horn and try different construction methods also not able to say truths because of various reasons. It is just too complex, too expensive to investigate and in most cases not necessary or needed to wide public, therefore not worthy to invest for horn builders.

So, my attitude is following. I build my 42Hz horn and I exposed all my techniques I used. In the very end I do like how it sound but I would not name a single specific technique that I feel is responsible for the sound that I like. Furthermore, if my horn was used in playback differently then I might be less (or more) satisfied with how it sound. So, looking back to my midbass horn project I might call myself an experienced guy (it took 10 year of thinking about that horn)  but do I feel that my experience give me option to say definitely about this or that construction techniques as an assurance of proper midbass sound. I do not feel this way and therefore I would argue any certainty in large horn construction.

I have seen a lot in audio. I have seen amazingly sounding bass enclosures made with over-damped and under-damped boxes. I have seen (even owned) insanely expensive enclosure what the microscopic resonances were measured by laser readers and the enclosures still sounded like shit. I have seen the enclosures made from thin horrible wood with firmness of cardboard box and some of them had phenomenally interesting bass. I feel that there are no rules and there are no winning patters. It is very complex to foresee anything in bass resonance and I feel that empirical practicing, observing own very specific results, proper interpretation of results and then to react upon those results is the only way to accomplish Sound of own envision. I am not even mentioning that what a person envisions is a reflection of his various non-audio qualifications, but it is a while deferent subject….



I faced exactly the same dilemna with regard to the construction techniques that would be used in the making of the UB115s. Counter-intuitively I opted to err on the side of doing too little rather than too much. Rather that interweaving different thicknesses of different materials, I decided to educate myself. I am humble enough to know that I may not be able to fault these horns using these specifications and I will be quite happy to live with these as they are. Aesthetically, I actually prefer the look of the mouth as I have designed them. They appear more elegant and refined, somewhat more ethereal for such bulky structures and they avoid the blockiness that I do not find appealing in other tractrix horns that I have seen. I agree with Romy that the beginning of the horns is not right but for very different reasons and my solution will be different, to suit my aesthetic sensibilities.

What lesson is there in my endeavour for those who are about to embark on the journey of building or commissioning someone to build their upper bass horns (from emails I receive I know quite a few people are considering taking the plunge when means, family or real estate allow)? In my opinion, the first thing is that you must get started! The more you think about it, the more you consider the theory and pros and cons of different ideas, the more you will get nowhere as those that I consider the practitioners in the field have such different opinions of what works best. And please please please keep your horns under 1m in diameter! If you have a family and your means are limited - as mine are- forget about horns and just book yourselves a nice holiday somehere nice as these horns are inevitably expensive if you are having them made. There is more gratification in knowing that my littles ones have had a wonderful break in such an amazingly beautiful place as I am now, than having my horn loaded system in operation.

Lastly but not least, Romy's site is a great place for insights in a system that is so far ahead that we might only want to emulate what he has achieved rather than discover our own personal solutions, but do not expect it to be helpful to beginners (which is how I class myself) in a practical manner. Romy's advice above is to approach a master of the art such as Jeffrey Jackson or John Hasquin. My advice is the precise opposite. This is too big a venture to hand over completely to someone who will make all the decisions and balancing of sometimes conflicting priorities for you. Try to do it yourself if you can or get someone to build it who will listen to your needs and your vision and then give it shape.

One very last thing if I may. I am not a hidden marketing agent for Russ Collinson, and I do not get a discount for singing his praise, although I fear Romy might think so, but he has been so exceptionally capable that one would not think that these were the first horns that he has ever built. But it was an amazing journey from the very beginning, from the time when he declined taking on this project, to the discussions that we had about the construction techniques, and it never failed to amaze me how he was open to new ideas, was prepared to look at what other people had done, and select what worked best in his mind, and develop and modify his own tooling where necessary. If you are in the UK or anywhere he can ship to, I would without hesitation say that you should give him some serious consideration. 

Best regards
Rakesh






10-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 12
Post ID: 17182
Reply to: 16936
Rakeshorns - The LVFrame
fiogf49gjkf0d

I think it is time, today being both my birthday and the day when I received the first updates from Russ regarding the frames for my 'Rakeshorns' system, for an update.

The idea behind the frame was to have a construction that both provided a fair amount of flexibility and adaptability, a certain degree of modularity (so that the frame could be extended as required, within reason) and hopefully also achieve some degree of elegance in terms of overall esthetics.

A key functional requirement was the ability to make the cables less obtrusive than they very often are and to this end one can see a channel running along the back of the frame where the cables will be hidden out of view, the channel itself being covered with a 5cm strip of veneered plywood.

As for the support rig, I am in discussion with someone in Germany who may build it for me or alternatively will try and make use of a local precision engineering company. Whilst I had for some time considered making the frame out of oak, which is fairly cheap and plentiful, I wanted a material that would enable me to have a very narrow profile. I wanted to keep the thickness of the mast cross section at no more than 12cm (which will look more like 8-9cm with the bevelled edges I chose to have for the front face). I also wanted a wood sturdy enough to cope with a potential weight of 80-150 kg hanging some distance from the centre of mass of the frame. All in all, oak did not seem to fit these requirements although Russ who is building the LVFrame felt that oak would have been good enough.

In any case, I then came across a beam of Guaiacum (Also known as Lignum Vitae) wood, which is incredibly dense and strong, in fact three times as hard as oak, a very oily wood which also had a beautiful grain that only require the application of danish oil. It is a protected species but I sourced mine from a beam that had been used as part of the structure of a pier used under water for well over 30 years and came out looking that it had been cut yesterday. I am not too sure to what extent I should be concerned about the isolation and resonant free characteristics of the frame in my application, but in any case, the hope is that this wood with its incredible density and therefore greater mass will be more immune to environmental vibrations.

I will upload some pictures in due course as well as some more explanation as to how the frame is made adjustable. As you can see this is work in progress...

Best regards
Rakesh




10-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 13
Post ID: 17183
Reply to: 17182
Rakeshorns - The LVFrame, some pictures
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakeshorns Frame0.jpg

Lignum Vitae timber beam from old pier

Rakeshorns Frame4.jpg

Cut by sawmill first then by Russ to requirements. Not easy as sawmill blades turn to wimps at the mere mention of Lignum Vitae or Guaiacum

Rakeshorns Frame5.jpg

Channels cut in back of frame masts where supporting rig screws, rods and cables will be hidden from view

Rakeshorns Frame7.jpg

Front with bevelled edges to narrow profiles of masts to about 8-9cm

Rakeshorns Frame8.jpg

Not very clear in this picture but there will be provision to adjust the height of the UB115 horns so they just rest on the floor evemn if the floor is not completely level

Rakeshorns Frame9.jpg

Picture of front of legs with a little artistic 'flourish' that will also be used to terminate the top of the masts
10-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 17184
Reply to: 17182
Happy birthday but ….
fiogf49gjkf0d
....but can you post a sketch of your future frame with horns? I assure you that the images of specific micro-details of constructing without understanding the content of enter project, how horn are related to each other, and how frame will hold them would mean very little for anyone.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-19-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 15
Post ID: 17186
Reply to: 17184
LVFrame minus support rig for smaller horns and tweeter
fiogf49gjkf0d

Below is a sketch of the main frame, that Russ made for me based on our original discussions many months ago, consisting of the support for the UB115 horns and missing some finishing details such as bevelled edges, top end feature, holes for horizontal supporting rods and other adjustability features.

Rakeshorns Frame10.JPG

The supporting rig has gone through a number of iterations  but the main feature is that it consists of a number of aluminium or steel rods which can be located at different heights as there will be a series of holes at approximately 15cm intervals, from which vertical threaded rods will allow further adjustments in both the vertical and horizontal plane. I will make another sketch once I know who will build it for me and what design the builder will be comfortable with.

Best regards
Rakesh

10-19-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 17188
Reply to: 17186
It might mean nothing to you...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Very good. One thing that I would like to note that you might not consider now as you have no practical experience with those things for now. This thing is a personal preference and has no impact to sound.

I personally prefer when I sit in my listening spot and look at the speaker then I would like do NOT see the mechanisms the hold the speakers. If I see the harness that holds the channels then it gives to me some overly utilitarian feeling. It always likes some “glory” of American architecture when they build beautiful houses with magnificence façade and in the middle of everything they run an ugly fire escape latter that made the whole appurtenance very functional but esthetically unpleasant. For sure no one argue the need of fire escape but you what I mean.

So, I personally prefer do not see any side-element of frame from listening spot. This is why I criticized Jessie’s Fundamentals Hors that in my view had too much harness visible.  If you look at the speaker from 45 degree then it will look like it flying in air – very cool appurtenance. If you look at the image below then you see that there is no frame visible on side:

LeftChennal_BassIdeas.JPG

Looking at your drawing I am afraid that the left of the right legs will be sticking out of the perimeter of the upperbass horn. There is nothing to be afraid; it might be not a big deal for you. You might also to moderate the length of the legs make them to hide behind the horn. Anyhow, you might think about it now as now it is very cheap to adjust. Again, it is my preferences and criteria and they might mean nothing to you.

Also, if you keep the horns unfinished then the selection of wood frame is justifiable and it will give whole woody look and feel. Still I would vote for metal frame. It is cheaper to make (MUCH cheaper!), it is much stronger, it will not bend and wave with time, you can use much more pressure to hold to it and the most important it might be significantly thinner to care the same mass.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 17
Post ID: 17196
Reply to: 17188
Long-leggedy beasties...
fiogf49gjkf0d
From ghoulies and ghosties
And long-leggedy beasties
And things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us!

Anon


 Romy the Cat wrote:
 

I personally prefer when I sit in my listening spot and look at the speaker then I would like do NOT see the mechanisms the hold the speakers...
If I see the harness that holds the channels then it gives to me some overly utilitarian feeling.



I agree. Without being a designer, I like forms to be not only functional and elegant but additionally not to clash and this can happen when you have a random hotchpotch of very different geometric elements, as would be the case with the elongated vertical lines and harsh angular structure of the frame and the beautiful circular shapes of the horns.


 Romy the Cat wrote:


Looking at your drawing I am afraid that the left of the right legs will be sticking out of the perimeter of the upperbass horn. There is nothing to be afraid; it might be not a big deal for you. You might also to moderate the length of the legs make them to hide behind the horn. Anyhow, you might think about it now as now it is very cheap to adjust. Again, it is my preferences and criteria and they might mean nothing to you. 



Whilst your preferences are your own, and have little sway on mine, I had specified quite a long time ago that the legs (and castor wheels) should be invisible from the listening position. You spotted quite correctly though that although recessed behind the horns that the legs were splayed at an angle that would make them visible in part. I had a chat with Russ and this is being addressed by reducing the angle. Thanks for noting this as I had not realised this immediately from looking at the pictures as I ought to have done.



 Romy the Cat wrote:


Also, if you keep the horns unfinished then the selection of wood frame is justifiable and it will give whole woody look and feel.



I sort of agree with you but I would have too many varying finishes across the three-four channels. These four channels need to be all finished in the same manner and that means that they must be painted. At the moment, a dark bordeaux red is the colour of choice, to suit the furniture and wall colour of the room and the rich red colour of wine, being as we are, located at the heart of the Alsatian Wine Road. As an added bonus, that dark red colour seems to go quite well with the beautiful grain of the Lignum Vitae timber.

 Romy the Cat wrote:


Also, if you keep the horns unfinished then the selection of wood frame is justifiable and it will give whole woody look and feel. Still I would vote for metal frame. It is cheaper to make (MUCH cheaper!), it is much stronger, it will not bend and wave with time, you can use much more pressure to hold to it and the most important it might be significantly thinner to care the same mass.

Rgs, The Cat


You are right. I would advise anyone going down this route to use a metal frame for the reasons you have mentioned. I however find natural wood very soothing and just keeping a sample of that Lignum Vitae timber atop my very modern Ligne Roset Yo-Yo table provides me with a tactile and sensory experience that bare metal could never replicate. As far as strength is concerned, for the application we have in mind, whilst other woods might have posed difficulties, the janka hardness rating of Lignum Vitae susggests that this is a non-issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Of more importance to me are the resonance frequency and sensitivity to environmental vibrations of steel especially in a monopod configuration. With my design, I cannot avoid the problem completely myself as the supporting rig will be made of solid aluminium bars but the frame and rubber castor wheels should provide a fair degree of isolation.Maybe I am worrying about nothing, but as you quite rightly point out, not having any practical experience of such a set-up, I am erring on the side of caution, and probably am in the process of avoiding imaginary evils whilst falling prey of the very real ones that I cannot see for now.

Best regards
Rakesh

10-21-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 17204
Reply to: 17196
About the resonance frequency of frame and the wheels
fiogf49gjkf0d
 oxric wrote:
Of more importance to me are the resonance frequency and sensitivity to environmental vibrations of steel especially in a monopod configuration.

Well, the resonance frequency of frame is the subject sucked out of nowhere. I can’t not even begin to tell how irrelevant it is. BTW, if, a big if, you feel that it is important to you than metal frame has much more flexibility to moderate resonance frequency. A 3 by 4 metal frame can care humongous wait, including bend and if you willing to tinkle with resonance frequency then you can fill the hollow 3 by 4 metal frame with sand of even with led shots. Warn you: when you put all your horns on the frame it will be so heavy that you will be laughing that you ever thigh about resonance frequency. The few grams of decagrams in those channels will be nowhere close to be able to excite the mass of the entire assembly. Sure, it is a free country and you might do whatever you wish, you might even initiate a group resonance frequency calculation, but I think that it has absolutely no practical meaning.

One more thing. You and Jessie and a few other folks that I have seen make the bottom of what I call “Horns Island” (in analogy with the air carrier deck) with wheels. This is certainly a very good decision BUT only if you not doing to use carpet. You see, the wheels work on carper if they are relatively large, let say 4-5 inch. It is how they are depicted at your sketch. However, you might discover in future that as you install your speaker in final position then you do not need the wheels anymore. Furthermore, in context of the permanently installed Horns Island the wheels might be a bit too utilitarian not to say ugly. You might not be able to remove them as your midbass will sink too deep. So, you need to devise some kind of idea that would take advantage of the wheels and then, after the final position is find would allow you to remove the wheels one by one, preserving the speaker found final location. I wish I thought about it when I was designing my Macondo frame….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-21-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 19
Post ID: 17205
Reply to: 17204
From lignum vitae to "rotae vitae"
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:


Well, the resonance frequency of frame is the subject sucked out of nowhere. I can’t not even begin to tell how irrelevant it is.



You are probably right. Obviously not having lived in earnest with any multi-way horn system, let alone a "horns-island" as you call it, and having instead lived with several speakers whose enclosures were clearly ill-conceived, I was thinking of these horns acting like pendulums by picking up vibrations from the ground and oscillating...I just do not know.


 Romy the Cat wrote:


One more thing. You and Jessie and a few other folks that I have seen make the bottom of what I call “Horns Island” (in analogy with the air carrier deck) with wheels. This is certainly a very good decision BUT only if you not doing to use carpet. You see, the wheels work on carper if they are relatively large, let say 4-5 inch. It is how they are depicted at your sketch. However, you might discover in future that as you install your speaker in final position then you do not need the wheels anymore. Furthermore, in context of the permanently installed Horns Island the wheels might be a bit too utilitarian not to say ugly. You might not be able to remove them as your midbass will sink too deep. So, you need to devise some kind of idea that would take advantage of the wheels and then, after the final position is find would allow you to remove the wheels one by one, preserving the speaker found final location. I wish I thought about it when I was designing my Macondo frame….

The Cat


I have solid wood flooring in the room with a rug thrown in front of the horns so the operation of the wheels should not be unduly hindered. As to aesthetics, this is a rather thorny issue to which I do not have a satisfactory solution. I have thought about this for some time and considered putting in some sort of skirt around the edge of the base to hide the wheels. I do not like the appearance of it. I thought of trying to find some castor wheels with wooden accents and there may be some I have found that will be not too dreadful looking. In any case, I will have the base made so that the wheels could be removed and replaced with some legs so the overall height of the frame and supported horns are maintained once the final position is found. It would be great if these legs would complement the design of the frame. Or I could just baptise the castor wheels "rotae vitae," an empty latin phrase will go a long way to hide many a sin.

A slightly crazy idea I have had in terms of the design of the frame was to incorporate some sort of discrete but fairly precise calibration of the supporting rods so I would be able to keep note of the relative position of the horns and tweeter as they are moved in position, as well as a device that would enable me to instantly measure distances to the listening position from the relevant locations on the drivers, with separate digital displays thrown in for good measure. I wish Jessie lived not too far from here; he would come up with some masterful solution in return for some bottles of Cremants.


Best regards
Rakesh
10-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 17209
Reply to: 17205
It is a weak frame in my view.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I still am not thrilled with this frame. Not that I have to be but in my view this frame has some potential to be problematic. I am not a structural engineer and I might be wrong but this is the problem how I see it. Wood is a strong material  and your frame use some kind of stronger wood. That is fine. However is you look at the height of vertical poll and if you attach it 3 more horns then you will understand that the virtual poll of the frame will have a lot of forward puling momentum and all this momentum will be applied to less than one sq feet surface between the frame’s legs and the vertical poll. Even if you glue it you have no room in there to use powerful bolts to hold the things together. If you drive some very deep studs into the poll then it might do but studs will have metal tightening only from one side. So, if you insist to use wood then I would like very much to see a metal triangular plates screw to the wood from both sides of the poll with good 25-30’ extension along the legs. This way the rocking of the frame will not weaken the vertical poll.

Rakeshorns_Frame_triangs.JPG


I have those ribs of stiffens and in my estimation they are mandatory for frame of this type.

Macondo_Frame_ribs_of_stiffens .JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 21
Post ID: 17210
Reply to: 17209
There will be no weakness in this frame. Or it will belong in a bonfire.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,

First of all, as things stand in the sketch, the mast sits atop the legs, a horribly precarious position given the weight that will be applied away from the centre of mass of the structure. This sketch is an early one, just to give an idea of overall appearance, and I should not really have posted it given the weakness that would be inherent to that design, as you quite correctly point out.

The mast will in fact sink in between the two legs (the point of the cut-outs near the base of the mast) and it goes without saying that Russ will do what's necessary to strengthen the mast in the vertical plane. I have told Russ to make the mast firmly fixed enough to hold a total weight of 200kg at a distance of 50-80cm away from the centre of mass. I like the bracing that you make use of in your frame and if Russ feels it is necessary or helpful, I would be very happy to have these fitted to my frame. Thanks for the suggestion.

This frame cannot be weak and it will not be weak. If it is, I will make a lovely bonfire out of the whole thing without a moment's hesitation and the closest it will get to my place in France will be the smell of the croissant I will toast on it as it burns merrily away in my back garden here in the UK! I have two little ones. Their safety is of paramount importance and comes before any stupid audio project of mine.

Best regards
Rakesh

12-06-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JKnechtel
Posts 4
Joined on 12-07-2011

Post #: 22
Post ID: 17486
Reply to: 17210
Location, location, location
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakesh,
I think your in the UK, amiright?  I see you are.  Never mind, was going to ask who your woodworker was.   I need to find someone similar here.  If your willing to share your plans for you stands, let me know.  I really like the look of the stand idea you have.   Still brainstorming here.   Josh
12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 23
Post ID: 17488
Reply to: 17486
Latest pictures of LVFrame and UB115 horns nearing completion
fiogf49gjkf0d

Josh,

Hope you have time enjoying your horns and new production Fane 8ms when not busy getting our world into more financial woe! Your query reminds me that it has been a long time I have not updated this thread and I am posting some of the latest pictures detailing the most recent development on the LVframe and UB115 horns. I try to share my time between the UK and France but it is true that Russ, my hornmaker maestro is based in the UK, half-way between Leeds and Sheffield. Still, if you are looking for a stress free solution to your need for a frame, I would suggest you contact Russ to discuss your needs.

The red you see in the photos is much darker in reality but flash photography makes that red looks lighter than it really is. One can see at the link below the Garnet Symphony 2 colour by Dulux, which is a deep red I was looking for to remind me of fine ruby red which I will also use to paint one feature wall in the room where the Rakeshorns system will eventually be in use: http://www.dulux.co.uk/colour/garnet_symphony_2

So here are the very latest pictures:


Rakeshorns- cut-out to fit supporting slat.jpg
Cut-out in horn for supporting adjustable rail

Rakeshorns - Panzerholz adjustable support.jpg
Adjustable Panzerholz rail

Rakeshorns - L & V cradle.jpg
Panzerholz rail sited in front rail on frame

Rakeshorns - side view 2.jpg
Supporting rail unobtrusive but enables both front to back and height adjustments

Rakeshorns - Mast with sample rods.jpg
Mast with sample rods, black anodised one will be used (to be calibrated - somehow)
Deep Red inside horn more like actual colour of horns once three more coats applied

Rakeshorns - Horn on frame.jpg
Nice feature: how curve at the front of leg echoes the curve of the horn

All in all, the pictures above give a good idea of the number of features that one might want to incorporate in the design of a frame for a multi-channel acoustic system such as the one I am working on. There is still a long way to go although I have made progress in other aspects of this project but these will have to wait for their own threads in due course.

Best regards
Rakesh

12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 24
Post ID: 17489
Reply to: 17210
LVFrame strength: Never mind Russell Crowe, Russ himself can swing off these with ease
fiogf49gjkf0d


 oxric wrote:
Hi Romy,

First of all, as things stand in the sketch, the mast sits atop the legs, a horribly precarious position given the weight that will be applied away from the centre of mass of the structure. This sketch is an early one, just to give an idea of overall appearance, and I should not really have posted it given the weakness that would be inherent to that design, as you quite correctly point out.

The mast will in fact sink in between the two legs (the point of the cut-outs near the base of the mast) and it goes without saying that Russ will do what's necessary to strengthen the mast in the vertical plane. I have told Russ to make the mast firmly fixed enough to hold a total weight of 200kg at a distance of 50-80cm away from the centre of mass. I like the bracing that you make use of in your frame and if Russ feels it is necessary or helpful, I would be very happy to have these fitted to my frame. Thanks for the suggestion.

This frame cannot be weak and it will not be weak. If it is, I will make a lovely bonfire out of the whole thing without a moment's hesitation and the closest it will get to my place in France will be the smell of the croissant I will toast on it as it burns merrily away in my back garden here in the UK! I have two little ones. Their safety is of paramount importance and comes before any stupid audio project of mine.

Best regards
Rakesh



Even after writing the above, I will confess to a slight doubt creeping in my mind following Romy's suggestion that the frame might be too weak as I sort of agreed that on paper it could appear that without some strengthening plate as he suggested the frame could not support the mast as this would in turn be supporting some heavy loads acting away from the centre of mass of the structure. So I told Russ that a requirement for me was that a grown-up adult male, say Russell Crowe, in full battle suit as in the opening scene of 'Gladiator' the movie, should be able to swing off a rod attached in the uppermost hole in the mast at a distance of 1m from the mast.

So that exactly what Russ did, except that Russell Crowe having chickened out at the last moment,  it behoved to Russ the brave creator pf my LVframe himself to bravely and selflessly offer himself to the experiment borne from my sick imagination. Here is what he had to say on coming out of this experiment with all limbs intact (e-mail slightly edited for reasons having to do with the relevant patents, intellectual property and copyright laws that protect all work that issue from Russ' legendary workshop):


Hi Rakesh...
 
I did a quick test of the strength of the stands this morning, I happen to have a 28mm diameter iron bar in the workshop so i used this in the top hole and supported my weight (65kg) at a distance of 1m from the mast (practically above the end of the legs) and there is absolutely no movement whatsoever! even by bouncing around the only movement is the iron bar bending and slight wobble as a result of my uneven workshop floor! so yes you could say it is strong enough! and there will be no need for mandatory safety helmets in the living room.
 
 
Russ.

For those who are more conversant with the arts of woodworking, I hereby unveil the ingenious system devised by Russ to support the mast and horns above which obviated the need for a supporting steel plate.

Rakeshorns - Mast support design.jpg


Best regards
Rakesh
12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 25
Post ID: 17490
Reply to: 17486
Reflections on design process of LVFrame
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JKnechtel wrote:
Rakesh,
I think your in the UK, amiright?  I see you are.  Never mind, was going to ask who your woodworker was.   I need to find someone similar here.  If your willing to share your plans for you stands, let me know.  I really like the look of the stand idea you have.   Still brainstorming here.   Josh


Elsewhere Josh also wrote:

 JKnechtel wrote:

I have large midbass horns and midrange horns made by elevenhorns.   I am still trying to figure out a stand idea.  I've read many creative ideas but I still haven't found the idea that inspires me.   I do like the all wood direction that Rakeshorn took.    I know Romy went metal based on aesthetics of not seeing the stands.  Personally I kind of like the aesthetics of Jesses'.   
Basically this thread is just a request for ideas, brainstorming as it was.






Hi Josh,

In response to your query, I was nearly tempted to start a new thread devoted to my frames as I think they are close to being so perfectly modular as to be able to accommodate most designs of multi-channel horn systems. It required a fair amount of thinking of what was required and I spent over the past few months several hours discussing my requirements with Russ Collinson. What was essential for making my frame design a success was having someone who could discuss ideas and quickly distinguish between the plausible and the impractical.

As for plans, whilst I am normally happy to provide plans, drawings and inventory list of everything I do for public use because I do not make a living out of this hobby, I would rather not do so on this occasion as the final result is so much the responsibility of the person with the real talent with wood and that is Russ. A design like this is inherently dangerous unless you know what you are doing and I do not have the slightest clue how Russ managed to get the strength required without the use of the triangular metal plates as Romy recommended and as I myself felt might be necessary.

In anything I do, I try to have as complete control as possible over every single design element. I will say this much however in the case of the design of Rakeshorns, especially of the LVFrame. Some design elements I left to Russ’s entire discretion and he came up with his own solutions. The two most important ones had to do with the strength of the frame structure and the adjustability of the UB115 horns in the horizontal and vertical planes. I like to be in full control of design and normally would never have left such important design decisions to the discretion of absolutely anyone. Russ gave me the confidence from the start that I could leave even the most critical decisions in his capable hands. With Russ, I went over what I required (in the case of the frame primarily safety for the children, and elegant minimalist looks and in the case of the cradle, fair amount of adjustability whilst being unobtrusive) and only today I have finally understood the solutions he came up with. I am astounded how his design here answered every single requirement of mine and managed to look better than I would have dared imagine possible.

In the end I decided not to start that new thread because I also think that one cannot dissociate the design of the frame from that of the entire acoustic system. In the photos that I have posted, you will have seen that there are a number of other ideas which are alluded to (see the rod samples), which will further be incorporated in the horns that will be custom made for this frame. I do however have other simpler ready-made horns which can be accommodated within this design without too much fuss.

In your search for the perfect frame, the most important requirement  is an ally, someone who is both an individual with the right skill set, but also a friend who will not mind discussing ideas and providing you with a harsh dose of reality every now and then. For me that was Russ.  Although he is somewhat a long way from you, I know that shipping abroad is actually not as bad as it sounds even for these horns and frames. I was surprised by just how decently priced shipping was when someone from Australia asked Russ to quote shipping of the large horns to his address there. My advice would be to talk to Russ and he will know exactly how best to modify the design of the LVFrame to accommodate your gorgeous horns by Jeffrey Jackson. I am quite willing to help you design the supporting rig to go with the frame if you like what I have designed although it is not implemented as yet  (for free of course).

About ‘brainstorming,’ although the term works well in most professional fields, I am slightly concerned about this approach applied to the design of a frame for an acoustic system like the one you have in mind. The suggestion is that a group of fairly disparate people with different requirements and priorities will come up with ideas and solutions from which the initiator will be able to pick the most promising ones. I am not too sure whether that approach would have worked in my case and I am very happy that I was able to approach the whole subject using my own understanding of my requirements as my only guide to the final design. Being clear about my requirements meant it was not possible on occasion to get distracted when other solutions presented themselves as I could see in a fraction of a second how they did not fit in with some of these requirements.

Josh, I do not know if any of this long post is any help to you or anyone else considering embarking on a similar project but I hope that having just gone through the still unfinished design of the UB115 horns and LVFrame that my reflections on my recent endeavours might be of some value.

Best regards
Rakesh
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