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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 16314
Reply to: 16314
Munich High End 2011
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've just got back home from there.
Here is the concert hall where the Munich PhO performs.






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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 16315
Reply to: 16314
Closed loop
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thales tonearm tracing an infinite groove.
 



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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 3
Post ID: 16316
Reply to: 16315
AudioTekne
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'Gunmetal' turntable, arm and MC-cartridge by Imai-san (Audio Tekne).




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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 4
Post ID: 16317
Reply to: 16316
Silbatone
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Silbatone used a WE horn to play in mono and a pair of their own horn cabinets for 2-channel.The very cinema sound reinforcement looking horn was, I was told, a 16B. I will post some comments about the sound a bit later.




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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 16318
Reply to: 16315
Thales tonearm tracing an infinite groove.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
Thales tonearm tracing an infinite groove.
 

Interesting is that although this demonstration look very “impressive” but in my view there is absolutely no value in this demonstration. Absolutely any TT/ tonearm would do the same the question is hot one tonearm does it differently then another tonearm in context of the same cartridges. So, Thales want to demonstrate anything then they need to show the anti-skating measurements for their tonearm while it does those crazy actions shit and compare it with other tonearm. I would like to not that the fact that Thales tonearm would (or would not) be easier doing in horizontal plane says absolutely nothing about qulety of tonearm sound. It is all about the lateral mass of inertia and match of lateral compliance to the cartridge cantilever (something that no one even talks). So, the whole demo that Thales put on I find irrelevant. If you want relevancy then get old Nakamichi TT that was peaty much designed to play those types of the records and that will give no errors to play it. So, the Nakamichi TT sounded not good but I am sure it will give an effective demo.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 16319
Reply to: 16317
Silbatone or G.I.P?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am a bit missing. Those speakers are Silbatone or G.I.P?

The anointment that I head was these speakers are made by G.I.P

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=16210

The G.I.P is known as driver maker, not the entire speaker maker. Silbatone would be the more appropriate company to do it, perhaps they used G.I.P drivers, or G.I.P made the speaker and gave to Silbatone to market it under own name. It is not know…

Regardless, I do feel that his new Silbatone/G.I.P speaker is a remarkable move. It is much more interesting then the garbage with Magner driver that Silbatone did a couple years back. I hope their whore Joe Roberts did stick those old speaker with Silbatone drivers in his own ass – that is exactly the place they shall rest.

I would discard the Silbatone preoccupation with WE. They want to drag them from show to show – it is fine, they very soon get tired from it. From audio advisement perspective this WE fixation is kindergartenish. The new speaker however is very notable and I am very glad for Silbatone for THIS move.

Any information about price, drivers (will G.I.P be required), construction material and option that we will see the thing in US? Will flexibility of the drivers be allowed? Would the speaker be available as “kit version as” it was with many speakers in 50s? Silbatone and G.I.P never spoke. They have the Joe Roberts run his boneless mouth for them. Would it be possible to have Silbatone and G.I.P flaks to be interview in context of their new speaker? Srajan Ebaen, if you read it, you love to have manufacture-page ride to you and your escort to exotic places – care to have a ride to Korea to interview Silbatone? I understand that you will ask question with no more intelligence than Sarah Palin would do but it is better then hearing nothing from Silbatone. Also, last few years you have learn that you sound like an idiot when you open you mouth in your articles and you let the interviewed person to talk. So, it might be an interesting article to read….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 16320
Reply to: 16314
Now for some photos
fiogf49gjkf0d




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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
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Post #: 8
Post ID: 16321
Reply to: 16320
More Silbatone
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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 9
Post ID: 16322
Reply to: 16321
Blumenhofer Acoustics
fiogf49gjkf0d



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05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 10
Post ID: 16323
Reply to: 16322
Audiotekne horns
fiogf49gjkf0d



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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 80
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 11
Post ID: 16324
Reply to: 16319
Silbaone info
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Romy,
The price is 167,000 Euro I was told. The material they used for bass cabinet at least looked like MDF. Sound was much better than any 
speaker I've heard in show, expect Cessaro which was wonderful. BTW Marten, Kharma, Focal, Magico and some other porcelain driver speakers could happily compete for worst sound in the show.
Regards,
Armen
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 16325
Reply to: 16324
In such case Silbaone is outclassed.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ArmAlex wrote:
The price is 167,000 Euro I was told. The material they used for bass cabinet at least looked like MDF. Sound was much better than any speaker I've heard in show, expect Cessaro which was wonderful. BTW Marten, Kharma, Focal, Magico and some other porcelain driver speakers could happily compete for worst sound in the show.

The 167K Euro makes 235K USD. For this money Silbaone topology is well outclassed.  Entire Macondo is 30K-40K level acoustic system. Silbaone new speaker is topologically 3-4 levels less complex and expensive. The price tag of 20K would make it the most popular design, the price tag of $235K will make it to join the army of expensive speakers that no one buys.

It is not the fact that they expensive but they are expensive for the result they offer. The last Silbaone is VERY simple (and very effective for being a package) design and there is nothing in there to be expensive. With the set of JBL/Altec set of drivers it has to be very inexpensive. Silbaone might push the G.I.P driver in the Silbaone and G.I.P might change 30-50K for some WE replica. Still, somebody Armen reports that Cessaro with $2K TAD driver were compatible to Silbaone… so what the purpose to pay more than $700 for a pair of JBL 2440?

Anyhow, I do not make any assumption how the new Silbaone sound but the price that they decided to go out is very disappointing.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 76
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 13
Post ID: 16326
Reply to: 16323
Audiotekne Bass Module impressions?
fiogf49gjkf0d


Thanks for sharing these images Serge.
I would like to learn more about the Audiotekne bass solution.
What size driver is that, is it a sealed cabinet, what is the baffle,
and what frequency range is demanded from this box?
How was the sound?


The 50 to 200Hz range is still a huge challenge, and for many (me for sure)
a large horn like Romy's just not physically possible.  The balance between
robust dynamics and sweet sound blending into the midrange is delicate and difficult.


Mats



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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 14
Post ID: 16327
Reply to: 16326
The Sound of the Box
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mats, I must have missed something.  What do you see in the Audiotekne photo that you ask after the bass box?  My usual ADHD glance only took in a double-wall-with-double-cutouts front baffle(s), and the (small-ish) size of it; maybe some sort of BR variant?  Anyway, it did appear to me that the sound of the enclosure would figure strongly in the final sound, here, if that would matter.  OTOH, there are a few 18" or even 15" drivers that can do 50 Hz strongly enough to make getting rid of enclosure sound another thing to think about.  Of course, beyond that, there is Tone...  and (like you said), blending...


Best regards,
Paul S
05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 15
Post ID: 16331
Reply to: 16327
Audiotekne
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well I have some literature from the Show and about the Audio Tekne speaker I can say that:
- it has an outboard crossover, which I guess is passive and uses a lot of transformers
- woofer diameter is 380 mm



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05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 80
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 16
Post ID: 16332
Reply to: 16325
Silbatone vs. Cessaro
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote
Still, somebody Armen reports that Cessaro with $2K TAD driver were compatible to Silbaone… so what the purpose to pay more than $700 for a pair of JBL 2440?


I must say sound of Cessaro was far more sofisticated than Silbatone, but it was very expensive too(250,000 Euro).

Armen
05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
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Post #: 17
Post ID: 16333
Reply to: 16331
Sound at the Show
fiogf49gjkf0d

Needless to say the sonic impressions I am getting at the shows may be deceptive and always are very preliminary: that's the nature of an event like that. Who knows what's happening in the mains while I am listening, may be the AC power just got a crapload of some digital sucker in the next room or whatever.

Anyway I heard what I heard and I am sure that was like that. May be next 5 minutes will bring radical difference. Or may be not.

The SIlbatone room was very large. They played an Edith Piaf record on a mono WE16B (or A, not sure). They played it very loud which I don't like, ever. I felt the system was made to show dynamics and it did it. The dynamic range was really undistorted and huge. But I've got the feeling that there was no power or body behind the jumps and dives of pure SPL if you see what I mean. I'd say a touch of pneumatic sound was there - no real drive behind the notes. It was not bad though since the music was coherent but lacking substance a bit - both tonally and artistically.

Then they put on stereo with their horns and the sound was in many ways similar to original WE. Of course it had much more extension at the top end and the bass was weighty but as an approach to showing me the musical performance it was very much the same. Dynamic but a bit empty.

Swissonor also had a big room but not as large as the SIlbatone's. They do a lot of restoration for classic Thorens turnables and also their own amps and speakers. Very lively sound though distorted and amorphous in the bass. Speakers used a horn-loaded woofer and old-style coaxial mounting of a tweeter.

The sound I like most was the one at Audio Tekne's room. I never listened to them before. The speakers were very ugly. I'd say extremely ugly. And 4-way, drive units arranged as if by chance. The big ugly turntable cost 53000 euro which made me cringe. Later I was told that the speaker cost 300 something 000 euros.

But the sound was decent. The frequency range was limited, there was a hint of some colouration and distortion in the highs but the music performance was meaningful and within-reach as opposed to something distant of which I have no concern.




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05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 16334
Reply to: 16333
Thinking about the sound at that show.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Serge wrote:
The SIlbatone room was very large. They played an Edith Piaf record on a mono WE16B (or A, not sure). They played it very loud which I don't like, ever. I felt the system was made to show dynamics and it did it. The dynamic range was really undistorted and huge. But I've got the feeling that there was no power or body behind the jumps and dives of pure SPL if you see what I mean. I'd say a touch of pneumatic sound was there - no real drive behind the notes. It was not bad though since the music was coherent but lacking substance a bit - both tonally and artistically.

I guess the nature of the business dictate to get bigger room and to have more people in there. Funny but at the show manufactures “compete” in the eyes of stupid public opinion by the size of their rooms as a bigger room sends a message that the company does well rand and afford to pay those exuberant fees for larger rooms. Needless to say that the larger room, and particularly the German style with glass, blows in a face of most of audio. The Silbatone own speakers are topologically not truly equipped to deal with larger rooms without retuning. In the past Silbatone I think invited third party consultant to help them to retune crossovers and to fit the speaker to the room acoustically. I do not know if they did recalibration of the speaker for the large room. To a degree the “lacking substance a bit - both tonally and artistically” that you report might derive from some challenges in Fundamentals Channel – something the slides very first in large room, particularly with the speakers where Fundamentals in the melody “range” can’t be individually dial in;  topologically it would be possible only with Cessaro Gamma. There is a catch however. The full bloom of Fundamentals in a large room and in context of full range is very complex. Neither  Silbatones are full range but still going for “full bloom of Fundamentals” would be in a way suicidal and people at the show would not “get” it. It is much more preferable at the show to strip harmonics, subdue Fundamentals and to demo fast and clean “dynamic” sound. I guess this is what Silbatone was doing….

 Serge wrote:
Then they put on stereo with their horns and the sound was in many ways similar to original WE. Of course it had much more extension at the top end and the bass was weighty but as an approach to showing me the musical performance it was very much the same. Dynamic but a bit empty.

I am disappointed with Silbatone own horns. I think that idea was wonderful, the design was superb and with proper mind set they could proper that speaker to very significant popularity. With near ¼ mil dollars price tag they killed the whole idea. It does not take a lot of brain to make an acoustic system expensive, it hake much more wisdom to make it finance-efficient. Altec Lansing sells their Altec A7 for $8K, Silbatone topologically in the very same price category as Altec A7, so why A7 cost $8K but Silbatone $235K? The sonic advantage that Silbatone might have over Altec might exist but it will be still restricted by the topological limitation of the both speakers. The whole point was to have the new Silbatone as I said before for 20K and to have it hugely scalable- people can chose what drivers they want, how much they are willing to pay and what kind sound they are willing to get. The whole great, from my perspective, notion of the new Silbatone design was that it can accommodate absolutely anything. The type of the bass bin that Silbatone use fakes any bass drivers you wish. The MF horn has no limit in length, so put in the 1” or 4” driver – does not mater, juts change the tail of the horn and slide the horn in time-aligned position. For sure setting the price of $235K Silbatone killed all of it. Unfortunatly….

 Serge wrote:
The sound I like most was the one at Audio Tekne's room. I never listened to them before. The speakers were very ugly. I'd say extremely ugly. And 4-way, drive units arranged as if by chance. The big ugly turntable cost 53000 euro which made me cringe. Later I was told that the speaker cost 300 something 000 euros. But the sound was decent. The frequency range was limited, there was a hint of some colouration and distortion in the highs but the music performance was meaningful and within-reach as opposed to something distant of which I have no concern.

Yes, they are extremely ugly but I do like it as a “package”. This super ugly shape with unfinished particles board panels and screws sticking from the speaker work out fine with me. I would be much more annoyed if they have the same ugly speaker with piano-gloss finish. I do not know anything about Audio Tekne and I do not truly understand what they did or where trying to do.

The Cat

A correction: When I was talking about the “shape with unfinished particles board “ I ment the  Blumenhofer Acoustics (pictures above), not the Audio Tekne


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 19
Post ID: 16335
Reply to: 16333
GIP
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, someone named lNHUMANE left this comment at YouTube (he is most probably right):
"That WE16B speaker is set up for stereo, not mono. There are two sets of drivers and two horns with a common mouth.  Of course, stereo did not exist when it was introduced in 1928.
The wood field coil horns are made by G.I.P. Laboratories of Japan."

I can add that they definitely played a mono record over the original WEs.



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05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 16336
Reply to: 16333
The Audio Tekne's 4-ways
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
The sound I like most was the one at Audio Tekne's room. I never listened to them before. The speakers were very ugly. I'd say extremely ugly. And 4-way, drive units arranged as if by chance. The big ugly turntable cost 53000 euro which made me cringe. Later I was told that the speaker cost 300 something 000 euros.

But the sound was decent. The frequency range was limited, there was a hint of some colouration and distortion in the highs but the music performance was meaningful and within-reach as opposed to something distant of which I have no concern.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiotekne.com%2Fproducts_sp-system.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 21
Post ID: 16337
Reply to: 16336
AudioTekne's English pages
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here's AudioTekne's English version

http://www.audiotekne.com/en/products_sp-system.html

http://www.audiotekne.com/en/sitemap.html

not much better but...

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
05-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 16338
Reply to: 16337
Looking at the Audio Tekne.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, this English pace did not give a lot of new information.  I know nothing about the AudioTekne Company. I like that they wrote about their bass driver but I do not know how much truth and the actual results behind it. I do think that they worked in this direction and did something. For this matter I have no idea what kind drivers they use. They give no indication of it and provide only weight of the drivers – like somebody cares about it. Why they ask specific amount of dollars for this speaker but do not ask for 21.2 kilograms of money? This comments about the subduing the vibration of horns and boxed I discard as irrelevant.

Anyhow, the entire design look slice straight forward and in my view not well thought. The bass driver is direct radiator with looks like felt-impeded large port. It is what AudioTechnica does – an effective way to get more LF extension. They claim that the driver is “special”. Very possible. However, topologically this is very cheap solution. Sergey told that the AudioTekne speakers cost 300 something 000 Euros. For this money the LF section must be estranged into separate modules. The solution with bass driver sit in the same box and the rest of the speaker in my view are good for sub $40K-$50K (retail) . If somebody is willing to put more money/efforts and to get more interesting bass then it automatically imply separate bass modules with option to position them where they have to be and dedicated amplification.

MF and HF drivers sitting horizontally. This is a big labiality and of cause a main screw up. I would like to see a larger MF channels as I estimate that the existing MF would not go lower then 6-7Khz. I guess they drive the upperbass horn way too high, probably all the way to 6-7Khz. The MF and HF do not look time-aligned but I do not know where the diaphragms in those drivers are.

The upperbass channel is a classic J-horn with a compression driver. As I said they most likely drive it all the way up, using the reflected HF from the J-horn bend. I really hate that HF reflected sound and I never seen anybody get anything good out of it. I can only presume that they mask the sun 7K problem with MF and HF channel and in context of the very live show room no one recognized it. The straps to the upperbass horn are ridicules. To hold the horn month in the position it shall be much effective ways to be used. If they try to send message that the straps prevent/damps the upperbass mouth vibration then it is laughable.  All that those straps tell me that somebody needed some kind of mouth holding solution 2 days before the show started and they found it. Unquestionably it is a very elegant solution for basement-built $2000 prototype but it is not a solution for $4.000.000 commercial acoustic system.

All together I am not impressed about what I see in Audio Tekne. I would like to learn more about the drivers but it is about it….

AudioTekne2.jpg


AudioTekne3.jpg

AudioTekne4.jpg

AudioTekne5.jpg

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 23
Post ID: 16339
Reply to: 16338
In the corner
fiogf49gjkf0d
You can see the company's founder, Imai-san, sitting in the far left corner of the last photo.



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05-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 24
Post ID: 16340
Reply to: 16339
Closer Look (at saving money)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looking at the better photos, with a rear view of the LF speaker, the "felt-covered large port" is actually not the worst possibility (a quasi "IB"), depending on some things we can't see and how well that driver "likes" it.  I can also see that what I originally thought might be an anular port around the driver was in fact shadows cast by the very thick baffle.  However, the combination of the (small-ish) size of the box and the driver itself appears to be aimed at frequency response and "squashing vibration" rather than "tone".

Wonder how it would stack up to a REL Stadium...  not that I want one, but the REL is at least one of the easier LF speakers to "integrate".  Money saved, in any case.

Paul S

05-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 25
Post ID: 16341
Reply to: 16317
Audio trash
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
Silbatone used a WE horn to play in mono and a pair of their own horn cabinets for 2-channel.The very cinema sound reinforcement looking horn was, I was told, a 16B. I will post some comments about the sound a bit later.



The video I am hearing Sounds like trash...
I am pretty sure This set of shit sounds like trash in real too.(no offense)

Rgs .
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