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10-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jamikl
Posts 5
Joined on 10-13-2010

Post #: 1
Post ID: 14741
Reply to: 14741
Horn length/expansion/group delay
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just new to this forum and there is so much to absorb..   One post I read suggested that horns be constructed
with dimensions to suit 1 oct. below the lowest Freq. to be used.  I know that Mr. Le Cleache favours this as
he says the group delay is better over the used band.  Romy you appear to have more experience than most with
horns and I noted that according to you this a waste of "Real Estate".  Being property poor I don't have much
real estate to waste and I wondered what you feel about the group delay issue in your mid bass horns which
appear to be dimensioned to the lowest freq. to be reproduced.  Also would one right angle bend be permisable
or must it be straight for its whole length.  I guess I may be a moron or an idiot but I wish to be born into the horn
world in the right manner and need to learn from those with true experience and not just theory.  
Thanks for any help.
jamikl
10-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 14744
Reply to: 14741
Confused?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jamikl, you got it all confused.

The rule of one octave below the lowest frequency is applicable for HF horns. My comments of “waste of Real Estate" has nothing to do with Real Estate and has to do only with the fact that in multi-channel system, where what the horn are stuck up vertically, the La-horn’s negative opening minimize usable height. I have no idea what Mr. Le Cleache talks about group delay. Le Cleache is 4303875 times more experienced and qualified then me in horn theory and in many instances I hardly understand he is trying to say.

Also, Jamikl, there is no need to spread compliments at this forum or demean yourself.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jamikl
Posts 5
Joined on 10-13-2010

Post #: 3
Post ID: 14748
Reply to: 14744
Confused?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nah, not really I think I understood what you meant by real estate I just meant that I did not have large rooms, therefore not much space.
I like your vertical array of horns and the  line arrayed LF section.  That doesn't take too much space.  My problem is the length of a mid bass
horn and I can see no way of doing it other than bending it in a curve or mounting it down facing to the floor as in one you showed, or going
closed box which I don't really want to do.  I think it is serenechaos who shows similar to what I meant by a curved one in his avatar.

I had worked out that the oct. below lowest frequency probably didn"t apply to lower frequencies but wanted to confirm it.  Just playing around
with the demeaning part but will give compliments when I think they are due.

I don't understand a lot of the LeCleache and Dr. Geddes stuff either which is why I am here.  Get sick of their constant bickering on those
diyaudio threads too.  Like little boys competing to see who can piss highest up the wall.
jamikl

10-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 14749
Reply to: 14748
The actual "sonic" part is mostly missing.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jamikl wrote:
My problem is the length of a mid bass horn and I can see no way of doing it other than bending it in a curve or mounting it down facing to the floor as in one you showed, or going
closed box which I don't really want to do.  I think it is serenechaos who shows similar to what I meant by a curved one in his avatar.

Yes, you might curve midbass as well as you might not use horn-loaded midbass. See what is your room might demand and bare and give it to her.

 jamikl wrote:
I had worked out that the oct. below lowest frequency probably didn"t apply to lower frequencies but wanted to confirm it.  Just playing around with the demeaning part but will give compliments when I think they are due.

The one octave below lowest frequency is not the rule that need to be fanatically followed. This is a concept and it allows some variations. The rule is that a MF horn shall sound “clean” and do not have any horn choking with LF sound. Connect your driver to your horn and being to slide the crossover point up and down. Very soon you will discover your own rule without help of Romys or LeCleaches. Mind you that the proximity of permitable crossover will wary from the crossover type,  th driver, the specifies of the given horn, stereo quietly of your playback  and the horn location in the room.
 jamikl wrote:
I don't understand a lot of the LeCleache and Dr. Geddes stuff either which is why I am here.  Get sick of their constant bickering on those diyaudio threads too.  Like little boys competing to see who can piss highest up the wall.

I would not consider Dr. Geddes as a valuable horn collaborator. He is very knowledgeable fellow but as soon he opens his mouth and mention Sound then he sounds like 5 years old. He might be used as a bouncing board to run prototypes and to see if it complies with very rudimental theory. He is very good in this. LeCleache is also looks like on theoretical side of playback organization but I never read anything from him that would be less dry then it is. If I did not witness the “actual sonic” part of Jean-Michel LeCleache then it does not mean that that it does not exist. I presume that in his world Mr. LeCleache has some kind of installations where he plays with his ideas, I just not familiar with it. Reading a few LeCleache’s articles I would say that I had some points of disagreement or some feelings of irrelevancy rather than to see in Jean-Michel’s writings any signs of pure stupidity.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jamikl
Posts 5
Joined on 10-13-2010

Post #: 5
Post ID: 14752
Reply to: 14749
Some rambling
fiogf49gjkf0d
This may not be the right place.  I am always emotionally involved with the music I listen to.  Sometimes there is
a quality to it that makes tears stream down my face - not matter what gendre of music or whether it is sad or happy.
This subject was done to death by the main contributor to the Silbatone Aporia thread.  So my dissatisfaction with what I
hear is not I think emotional.  On most music I listen to my very average gear is OK but loses it as the complexity of
the music increases.

The above may be why a great number of people do not like classical music or opera.  I could not stand them either when
listened to in the old days on a transistor tabletop radio.  A flat jumble of sound with no connection to me.  As my gear got better
I found that I could enjoy and perhaps understand this music more.  I will also include organ music in that.  I began to appreciate
what is going on I think.

Now I have reached a stage where I am wanting to be IN the music somehow.  Involved.  Hear the intent of the piece.  The gear
I have prevents this as it doesn't discriminate enough - if you understand me.  I hear resonances which stop me following lines played
by instruments.  I notice that there is still a mish mash of sound- even though somehow more enjoyable than the old radio-when many
groups of instruments are playing different parts or even  the same part.  I cannot really get into what is going on.  This starts to
happen with a jazz big band- say a Duke Ellington tone poem and continues on up as the music becomes more complex.  It is OK with
small groups and chamber music.  The resonances in the system are always a problem.

Several years ago I had a part horn system-not following your ideas-but still horn and I liked what happened when I listened through it.
Circumstances change and I don"t live in my own house or use my own gear.  I can't modify or clutter this house but I do have time.  You
showed a German system, can't remember the name - something gamma.  There were smaller versions of that which may work here and
the idea I think is to build it one unit at a time and listen.
jamikl
10-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 14755
Reply to: 14752
Combine but not confuse
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jamikl wrote:
On most music I listen to my very average gear is OK but loses it as the complexity of
the music increases.

It is not only with your gear. Most of audio systems fall apart with increase of musical complexity.

 jamikl wrote:
Now I have reached a stage where I am wanting to be IN the music somehow.  Involved.  Hear the intent of the piece. 

Be very careful now and what you are looking is NOT the properly of audio gear. The audio gear might be an enable in some way but not the provider of in-depth musical intercourse.  Look somewhere else, outside of the realms of audio conventional audio.

 jamikl wrote:
The gear I have prevents this as it doesn't discriminate enough - if you understand me.  I hear resonances which stop me following lines played by instruments.  I notice that there is still a mish mash of sound- even though somehow more enjoyable than the old radio-when many groups of instruments are playing different parts or even  the same part.  I cannot really get into what is going on.  This starts to happen with a jazz big band- say a Duke Ellington tone poem and continues on up as the music becomes more complex.  It is OK with small groups and chamber music.  The resonances in the system are always a problem. . 

I think the use of word “resonances” was not exactly accurate. I think I understand what you are trying to say, even though I do not exactly agree with you.

 jamikl wrote:
  Several years ago I had a part horn system-not following your ideas-but still horn and I liked what happened when I listened through it.

What happened?

 jamikl wrote:
  Circumstances change and I don"t live in my own house or use my own gear.  I can't modify or clutter this house but I do have time.  You showed a German system, can't remember the name - something gamma.  There were smaller versions of that which may work here and  the idea I think is to build it one unit at a time and listen.

Sure, you can build it. However, I would like you very clearly understand that your desire to build some kind of replica of the Gamma, or any playback for this matter, has nothing to do with your interests of “being IN the music somehow”.  Building, organizing and maintaining a truly capable playback is a self-contained task with own objective and own motivations. Do not confuse audio interests and creative interests. You might combine them if you can but you shall not confuse them.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JAVAD
Posts 1
Joined on 11-13-2010

Post #: 7
Post ID: 14933
Reply to: 14741
Horn against unwanted noise
fiogf49gjkf0d
[We are faced with a situation of unwanted noise that is coming from a rock concert at the 100 meters away from our place which is about 200*200 meters area , the power of the noise at my place is about 90 db . the noise source  is being  broadcast ed by speakers in 180 degree angle . I want to know that what are the proper ways of silencing this unwanted noise or at least reducing the effects on my side  ,with different technology that is able to mask or reduce or silence this noise. what is the best way ,defensive or offensive to stop the noise effects and what are the proper equipments for this situation.I want to see what should be the proper size and exact horn that I can use to make a sound that can overcome the unwanted noise coming to me or can make silence.what are the mathematics of horn and what should be the frequency of the sound.
11-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 14934
Reply to: 14933
The tool of choice
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JAVAD wrote:
[We are faced with a situation of unwanted noise that is coming from a rock concert at the 100 meters away from our place which is about 200*200 meters area , the power of the noise at my place is about 90 db . the noise source  is being  broadcast ed by speakers in 180 degree angle . I want to know that what are the proper ways of silencing this unwanted noise or at least reducing the effects on my side  ,with different technology that is able to mask or reduce or silence this noise. what is the best way ,defensive or offensive to stop the noise effects and what are the proper equipments for this situation.I want to see what should be the proper size and exact horn that I can use to make a sound that can overcome the unwanted noise coming to me or can make silence.what are the mathematics of horn and what should be the frequency of the sound.

Javad, I do not see a horn as a tool to help in your situation.  Probably a automated machine gun would be a tool of my choice


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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