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01-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12757
Reply to: 12757
Vitavox corner horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
Guys, does anyone has service documentation or pans with dimension for the bass section (cabinet) of Vitavox CN191?

http://website.lineone.net/~empson/Sys191.html

VitavoxCN191.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12758
Reply to: 12757
Vitavox corner horn plans - ask Peter Empson
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,
If you look at the bottom of this page:

http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/loudspeakers2.html

it looks like he offers replicas of them...
Good luck,
cv
01-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12759
Reply to: 12757
Possible lead
fiogf49gjkf0d
JBLGUY wrote
(taken from the Lansing Heritage Forums Archive / 2005):

"...I have a pair of the [Vitavox] corner cabinets...Mine have full sides (waveguides)... I live in the city where Vitavox Canada was located. We recently met the original draftman who drew up the Vitavox Cabinets. He was quite surprised to see a pair so many years later. We actualy have his blue print in full scale and they are huge drawing to say the least..."

There's a good chance he's referring to the CN191s; its worth a shot to ask, as having access to the original plans would be best. You could ask for a scan of this print (due to large format, this would likely have to be done in several parts, to be assembled later).

Members of the Lansing Heritage forum have the possibility to contact other members.

Link to original post:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3690&page=3
(post located about half way down the page)

Do you want these plans in order to establish a starting point for rear chamber volume on a pair of straight horns, or are you actually now considering using corner horns?

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
01-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 158
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12760
Reply to: 12759
It's a Klipschorn ,isn't it ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'd guess that the only difference compared to the modern version of  the K-Horn is a throat plate size of 6"x13" like in EV Georgian and use of ticker 3/4" plywood for enclosure. Myself, I settled on Klipschorn as a midbass solution 40hz  to 100-150Hz for my cramped room.
Regards, W
01-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 12761
Reply to: 12760
The Vitavox Corner Horn plans
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thanks guys, I have contacted Peter and the JBLGuy, let see what it would fish. I would need to find the Vitavox Mike from UK, but all his formal contact do not works - it looks he closed down his old shop. If somebody knows his new email/phone then let me know. Perhaps I need to get in touch with Kevin from Living Voice and via him to find Mike.

Wojtek, yes, Vitavox licensed the Klipschorn’s design but they are not the same. The Klipschorn was in a way primitive as the did not have unified driver and each party of the corner-horn went out with different random drivers. I know the basics of Klipschorn and Vitavox design but I would like to see some particulars that Vitavox implemented specifically for 151 and 10/40 drivers. I would like to see the dimension of the throat, the volume of the first and second bend’s window and a few other details. For instance if you look in the picture of the driver mount (this is ceramic driver and Japanese replica, not the original one) then you will see the back chamber – I would like to know the volume of it – the way how it was in original one.

Vitavox_ Back_Chamber.jpg

I do not say that what Vitavox did in this bass cabinet was “right” but I would like to learn what they did.

Now about my interests in it. I am certainly do not consider to use the corner horns.  However, looking at my real-east progress I have come to the observation that I might not be able to make midbass horn design in my future rooms at the level of elegance I would like to. I might but then I would need 1000 sq feet room. What I see is that I most likely will end up with 600-700 sq feet rooms. In this dimension to have time-aligned horn that would reach listing position in mature fashion (this is very important) might be complicated.  So, I kind of contemplating the idea of 1/8 horn loaded to boundary, something similar to Vitavox bass cabinet for 191 only located horizontally in the mid of the room (time-aligned position) in the corner between wall and floor.  If I chose to go for this direction then it will not be Vitavox replica but it will be my own design what I would take advantage of benefits that this configuration has again corner loading but I am very much not planning to discard what Vitavox did. So, I would like to study the 191 seating and to see what might be done with it further

I have a friend in NY who has the 191 cabinet and in the worse case I might drive in there and to measure all that I need but I think to get the plane would be much easier way. I am not sure if the boundary loaded 1/8 horn would be the direction I would like to go but I would like to have it in my head when I looking the houses…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 6
Post ID: 12762
Reply to: 12761
Crossover
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
what do you think will be the crossover points of the new system?
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 12764
Reply to: 12762
Will see how it goes, if it goes.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 el`Ol wrote:
Romy,<BR>what do you think will be the crossover points of the new system?

el`Ol,

I have no idea. I have no new system yet. If I decided to render the configuration with that battery boundary-loaded horn then it might do 40Hz and up to let say 200-300Hz. The low pass filter will be with respect to where it will be located, what it will output and how it will be talking with Macondo Upperbass channel. At this point is very hard to speculate on anything. My primary concern was powering thins thing – I would like to power it from my current Milq LF section, perhaps with a different output transformer.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 12766
Reply to: 12764
Corner-load whatever you want
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am currently planning high-WAF speakers for my sister which have to stand in the corners on the floor. Asking for small corner horns I was told the EV Baronet could be a solution. Simulating it with roughly estimated dimensions I found that the FR is much more dependent on the volume of the (huge) compression chamber and the length of the (short) horn than on the opening factor of the horn. So I thought if this speaker is more a BR than a horn why not build a much simpler BR. I found that AJ-Horn and Hornresp show just a parallel shift of the FR with transition from half-space to quarter space to eighth-space for BR (both) and sealed (AJ-Horn). Using this function both programs seem to assume a point-shaped diaphragm, the upper limit of the shift is too high for large diaphragms. So I simulated the corner in Hornresp as a conical horn and this seemed to be more realistic. It indicates that getting up to 300 Hz with a 15" driver is possible. With 10 or 12" it should even be possible to get rid of the upper bass (picture). But the driver has to be as far in the corner as possible to get a "throat" that is not bigger than the driver. 
You wrote that you like the 15" Altecs in BR. So if you have one lying around... A 15" Fertin or Supravox Field Coil with the right supply voltage would allow a sealed enclosure - sorry, I'm kidding.
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 12768
Reply to: 12766
I never feel comfortable with corner-loading.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I never feel comfortable with corner-loading despite that the best midbass I even heard was coming from corner-loaded horns.  The corner-loading is so much room specific and it is so imposable  to do anything with it that it become a very ugly lottery with very low odds – I do not like . Also, it force the MF island to be more or less bind to corners (or referenced to the corners) -  I do not like it as well and I like when MF channels are free standing in the middle of the room….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 12769
Reply to: 12768
Corners and midbass
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I never feel comfortable with corner-loading despite that the best midbass I even heard was coming from corner-loaded horns.


The lower midrange is the region that should make the most problems in a backloaded corner horn (if it is really a horn). The wavelengths are shorter  than the baffle width, which makes the corner act no longer as a horn but a reflector. And they are still long enough to prevent the driver from beaming, what would again prevent reflections.
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