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  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO get time-aligned help.... Eventualy!!!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  806755  08-16-2008
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  »  New  The tools to listening sounds vs. music..  The tools to listening sounds vs. music...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  9936  10-11-2009
10-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 11936
Reply to: 11936
Audio-tekne's "Tone Quality Improvement technique"
fiogf49gjkf0d

Reading the Stefano Bertoncello's Blog about his trip to Japan I was trying to detect any signs of interesting Sound.  It looks like he Stefano was caught by  sound of ALE installation in Audio Tekne.

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2009/10/wjaas-audio-tekne-best-sound-i-ever.html

Unfortunately there was no further explanation, analyses, or a desire to look deeper (as usually on internet audio).  I was looking at the Audio Tekne site and did not find any interpretable data in there. The exception was the Audio Tekne’s “philosophy” section, which is 7 pages.

http://www.audiotekne.com/en/policy_index.html

Agree I or not with what Audio Tekne pitchers but I is their vision and I think it is useful read.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 2
Post ID: 11971
Reply to: 11936
Imai-san's room
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Unfortunately there was no further explanation, analyses, or a desire to look deeper (as usually on internet audio). 



Glad you enjoyed the "Philosophy" section by Imai-san... some of his old writings deeply influenced me and my audio vision - i.e. "if you're not able to have a chat during music playback, something REALLY wrong is in your audio-system" and other wise, yet easy hints (in-phase mains plugs,cabling, etc).

I someway choose the "chronicle" approach, more than an "in-deep" technical essay  (out of my possibilities, anyway...).

Like for A.L.E.'s visit, I was overwhelmed by traditional hosting and kindness and good-will to show semi-finished gears, parts, nice discs and empathy...

Sound-wise... again this natural "easyness"... in a room which was, well, amazingly over-packed and small... speakers were REALLY too near to each other and the stereo image, was a mono!

I'm sure not a case I listened to, enjoyed and appreciated a Beethoven's piano recording and a violin solo!

My feet  (11 sized) weren't able to properly touch a floor part safely... as it was a busy, little room.

... but the speakers moved air pretty well and I was very easily able to trascend the caveats and shortcomings, thus my comment at the end of my post -
("... re-open curtains, applauses! The best sound I heard during my japanese trip, period.").




"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
10-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 11976
Reply to: 11971
…still, NON of them time-align their channels…
fiogf49gjkf0d

…and it is not just my paranoia but rather a competition of Special Olympics. There is absolutely nothing wrong in Special Olympics but when we assess the absolute records from the Special Olympics competitions then I would not think that their records are inductive above what is humanly possible. Yes, their hospitality is good. I for instance had the most expensive meal in my live while I was in Tokyo – over $13.000 for a single dinner, hey I did not pay for it, at least it was what I thought at this time….

The Cat

PS: BTW, speakers do not move air....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 4
Post ID: 11979
Reply to: 11976
I know, but you got the idea...
fiogf49gjkf0d
PS: BTW, speakers do not move air.... ;-)
eolo.gif


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
10-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 11982
Reply to: 11979
…and pay attention how God blows.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, I like your illustration. Let look into it deeper.

Considering that God located very far from the boat then the individual streams of God’s blows departed from a single infinitely-far located point (the God mouth) are parallel, as it is depicted.  So, the sailors raise a sail, exposing it to the force of the Gods blows. Since the God’s individual streams are parallel and with equal forces then the right and left side of the sail’s surfaces are experience the same force. Positioning the sail under a specific angle the sailors generate a predicable thrust.

Now, let pretend that the the leading edge of God’s blows are still parallel but the individual streams depicted above propel across air with different speed, introducing the arrival time delay. Now the God’s blows toward the right side of the sail experience arrival efect but the left side not yet "blessed" by God yet. This twists the sail and offset the relationship between the positioning of the sail and the predictable direction of the sailboat propulsion. Not pretend that strong and soft, wide and narrow God’s blows have different speed and different arrival time.

The Bermuda Triangle was made this way…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 6
Post ID: 11984
Reply to: 11982
I added some pixes of the A.L.E. system...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... in Bologna, Italy I previously quoted... a 5 ways system using also the bass-horn and driver, ALL "Super" series... a tycoon system, price-wise...

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2009/10/wjaas-best-of-crop-ale-acoustic.html

Roman: would you please speculate on these pixes at yr. convenience - i.e. in-phase, positioning, etc.?

I never listened to this system... will do - I hope - before next Christmas;-)



"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
10-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 11985
Reply to: 11984
An amateur hour of playback design?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Twogoodears,

I am sorry, I do not know what you mean asking me to speculate on these pictures. I know very little about ALE drivers and I would not make any guesses. The system design that is presented on the picture is certainly not of my liking. Kevin Brooks from Utah, USA does something similar

http://www.kbrooksaudio.net/photo.html

I do not take it seriously.  Regardless how good or bad the drivers are the arrangements like this is an “amateur hour” in playback design.

The Cat

PS: BTW, congratulation, your blog was made by this cretin from Brazil. Now this audio-Vaseline will be “doing” you....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 8
Post ID: 11986
Reply to: 11985
.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Vaseline;-) is easily wiped off...

My speculating request was concerned to the idea of a bent bass horn, a mid-bass and other ways "almost" (phisically) in-phase... apparently so, as it's only moved at the back... not really aligned - i.e. how can someone align a 6 meters long bass horn this way, don't you? 

After W.E.... W.A. - Wealthy Amateur!





"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
10-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 11987
Reply to: 11986
Again, again and again ….
fiogf49gjkf0d

Stefano,

I do not have any strong objection regarding to what ALE do. Bent bass horn are more evil then straight horn but considering the small throat of the ALE drivers  and their desire to make it to work low the length of the horn become too high to keep it straight. So, if one does not want to get any higher frequencies out of horn then I do not see that bents are the problems, if ten are made properly. Under the properly made bents I imply the bend when the cross-section of the profile does not change across the bend. The first bass horn at your page, with 9 degree horn I would not recognize as interesting and I do not like it. The third picture, the view from behind, is the example of the proper bends, at least from how I can judge from outside. This system would need a complimentary LF section as I preams the bass hot will effectively go down to let say 50Hz in closed-bottom mode.

If close my main bitching from would be about the fact that none of those Japanese companies, GOTO, ALE and any other make no efforts for time-aliment I do not mean the bass horns).  I need to note that time-aliment is not some kind of panacea of mine. I did not learn it from book sand I never was told/taught about time-aliment by anybody. I absolutely single-handedly discovered it and developed all necessary for myself evidences about the time-aliment’s topmost importance in context of auditable experiences. If you read my Macondo pages:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx

… then the time-aliment “invention” was during my “discovery period” that stats from the paragraph #4.

Well, I do not have a need to convince you in importance of time-aliment and explain what and how to evaluate the time-aliment benefits. We had a number of conversations before about the subject. What I do suggest is to think associatively about the subject.

Let visualize an internal combustion engine, let say multi-cylinder four-stroke engine.  The cylinder’s valves must be opens and closed once every other revolution of the crankshaft and in the very specific crankshaft position. There are different ways of synchronization of crankshaft that drive cylinder and the camshafts that driver intake and outtake valves. I am not knowledgeable in engines but at the level of visualization from 5.000 feet it would do. So, what have multi-cylinder engine and each cylinder needs to have valves open and close and the spark applied at the very define position of the cylinder compression. If all 4, 6 or 8 cylinders work in unison, creating on the crankshaft identical thrust then the engine does fine.  Now pretend that we have an engine where the in the cylinder #1 the ignition is applied not at the time when the combustible mixture is compressed and in the cylinder #2 ignition applied with open output valve.  The engine still might be running and someone would sit in their Lamborghini and demonstrate to you how great this automobile is and how experience he is as a driver. Still, knowing that two cylinders are limping in their time actions you truly question if the person might be such a great driver that if he driver the badly performing Lamborghini and has no feeling that anything is wrong.

The very same is with playback systems. There is nothing wrong with having drivers in not time-aligned position. Just for the people who know how the things work and how the time-alignment “sound” it is very self-evident that the playback doe not sound as good as they might be.  There are huge amount of problems deriving from time-misalignment, particularly in velocity-centric systems as horns are. So, when people show to me the exotic drivers organized in time-misaligned arrangement, I feel very mach as somebody shows me a Lamborghini with two dead cylinders.  It is not necessary indicate that the drivers are bad or the Lamborghini is bad car or has bad engine. It however indicates the audio reference points of the people who design the playback system or the driving reference points of the car driver and how much this driver truly needs a car of this level

To listen a horn installation with time-misaligned channels to me is like tasting a fancy cooked Filet Mignon in duty restroom.  It is not necessary indicate that the steak was not cooked well but ingestion of food is not just the objective of cooking but to have a pleasant quality time during the entire eating ceremony….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 10
Post ID: 11990
Reply to: 11987
Crooked glasses
fiogf49gjkf0d
Most commercial speakers I have heard are not time-aligned. Some claim that a large part of the population is not "sensitive" to time alignment. 

That is rubbish. Most people have not heard properly aligned speaker systems so have no clue why their systems sound disconnected and just accept things the way they are. The effect is not subtle. 

Non-aligned speakers are akin to wearing a pair of glasses placed crooked on one's face. The effect is similar to wearing glasses of the wrong prescription, but the analogy is not as accurate from my point of view.
Page 1 of 1 (10 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO get time-aligned help.... Eventualy!!!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  806755  08-16-2008
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  882061  11-19-2007
  »  New  The tools to listening sounds vs. music..  The tools to listening sounds vs. music...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  9936  10-11-2009
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