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  »  New  Johannes Brahms - Symphony No.4, Carlos Kleiber, Wiener..  Did anybody observe that Brahms comes with waves?...  Musical Discussions  Forum     8  37212  10-21-2009
08-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 11547
Reply to: 11547
A CD off tune? The Big CD Conspiracy theory?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I came across a mystery today that I have absolutely no explanation.

Like many others I like the Brahms #4 symphony. I have my favorite: my beloved Barbirolli with Vienna during the Musikvereinssaal 1967 . I also a big admirer of Carlo Maria Giulini, but not with unreasonably celebrated his play with Chicago Symphony but his obscured but brilliant performance of the Brahms #4 when he took Vienna Philharmonic at tour to Japan…

I also a fan of Carlos Kleiber and I feel that any sane person who appreciates classical music shall have everything that Kleiber ever recorded with Vienna. Kleiber recorded Brahms #4 with Vienna in 1981. Well, I have it on record and I always I kind of have difficulty with this performance.  Kleiber sometimes too tacky with Brahms, sometimes too cute and sometimes too dancy… so I never developed any love to it….

The last week, after Kurt Masur’s wonderful play in Tanglewood the all Brahms program I got some craving for fresh Brahmcy and I desired to order CD version of Brahms #4 Kleiber/ Vienna. I ordered the DG’s “The Originals” that use to be very good in 90s and very much admire their premastering. So, the CD came today, it is 289 475706-2. I played it today and cannot figure out ether my ears went nuts, or my equipment is turn crap, or the people who did are Morons.

The sound of Vienna is sliding off tonality like it would do with a record playing that has problems with disc stability. It does not sound like technical sliding (it is impossible on CD as my TL0 buffers tracking) but rather as the Vienna Philharmonic section run off tune – imposable in my view!

I wonder what the hell might be a reason for it? I was searching and was not able to local my LP with the same performance but I am very convinced the Vienna would not play like this, particularly under Carlos Kleiber. The defect is very minor but it there and it is annoying. I think that there are 4 reasons for it.

1)      Something is wrong  with my equipment

2)      My sonic psychosis is progressing and I turned into some kind of deranged coo-coo.

3)      The DG’s “The Originals” CD that I bough (new sealed from Amazon) is not the DG’s CD but some crap made from MP3 (or 8-track) in third country by Morons that is being sold by Amazon as authentic DG discs.

4)      The quality of the DG went so bad that even the defects like this become possible with their products.

Regard the last reason. The quietly of DG’s “The Originals” after 2002-2003 wend down very much and I tend do not buy their new releases – they are all vandalized nowadays. However the CD that I bought is from 1998 – it was very good time for “The Originals”.

Anyhow, did anybody else come across the same problem? Is it possible that the reason #3 is the reason and some kind of criminal operation in China has their hands in the deed?  Did I discover the Big CD Conspiracy?  I do not ask if 911 was internal job I ask if we have out there an ocean of “wrong” CD – if you ask me then I think it would be a very lucrative business for someone…  It might be a bit too crazy but if it is how I implied then would it explain why all labels report drop in sale last few years? I do not buy a lot of CDs last 3-4 years so I do not know how spread the problem is…

Anyhow, you might want to pay attention to it.

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 11548
Reply to: 11547
CD from analogue tape re-mastered...
fiogf49gjkf0d
is what I assume that your CD's source is all about. So it could be in deed a problem having used the 'original' master tape (analogue) which might have had a slight problem, stretched, or issues with the equipment speed (slight speed wobble) when the a new digital conversion for the new digital master was carried out.

I have the odd 'Original-Image Bit-Processing' Digital Recording DG CD -- BUT this would not be susceptible to what could be the case with an analogue master of what you are relating.
However, those digital recordings have their own problems with a stupidly over-done 'treble-resolution' so it may sound 'marvellous' on some rubbish plastic boom-box. Since so many people have bough such cheap crap audio over the last 10-15 years, it might just be that DG thought they have to suit the prevailing market 'requirements'.
You would know if my notion on this 'wanting' re-mastering is correct, ALL of these CDs would show the same problem. So, if someone of your site-posters has it as well, he then might be able to confirm that it's a re-mastering issue and not your own 'audio processor' having gone coo-coo.
Axel


08-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 3
Post ID: 11549
Reply to: 11548
High Resolution and 16 bit
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Axel wrote:
is what I assume that your CD's source is all about. So it could be in deed a problem having used the 'original' master tape (analogue) which might have had a slight problem, stretched, or issues with the equipment speed (slight speed wobble) when the a new digital conversion for the new digital master was carried out.

I have the odd 'Original-Image Bit-Processing' Digital Recording DG CD -- BUT this would not be susceptible to what could be the case with an analogue master of what you are relating.
However, those digital recordings have their own problems with a stupidly over-done 'treble-resolution' so it may sound 'marvellous' on some rubbish plastic boom-box. Since so many people have bough such cheap crap audio over the last 10-15 years, it might just be that DG thought they have to suit the prevailing market 'requirements'.
You would know if my notion on this 'wanting' re-mastering is correct, ALL of these CDs would show the same problem. So, if someone of your site-posters has it as well, he then might be able to confirm that it's a re-mastering issue and not your own 'audio processor' having gone coo-coo.
Axel


Axel,

Having repeatedly been impressed by Japanese mastered CDs (Denon, Toshiba, etc.) I came to believe that it might have something to do with the fact that these had been processed with pre-emphasis, so it's funny that you mention DG's Original-Image Bit-Processing/4D recording as this seems to use a similar process (here's a very basic ).
Pre-emphasis has a catch (small, due to the reduced number of CDs with such process) though since, as with the RIAA equalization, we are very much dependent on our player's ability to process the de-emphasis.

Could it be that manufacturers are no longer using a de-emphasis circuit both due to the minute number of copies and also to the fact that this process is (almost) no longer used?

In any case, I try whenever possible to buy the original CD mastering for fear of dynamic compression, reduced quality (many new "remastered" releases have extras and these take MB space) and fear of brutal Sci-Fi process such as AMSI - Ambient Surround Imaging:

"We don't just record original material in 5.1 Surround Sound at 48 or 96 kHz, 24 bits (editing of up to 48 tracks at 48 kHz, up to 24 tracks at 96 kHz), we also provide Surround Sound processing/post-production of existing recordings: Analog sources are converted to digital using the OIBP technology (OIBP = Original Image Bit Processing).
In the case of multitrack originals, we can provide Surround Remastering of the original multitrack tape as well as new Surround mix (even for material that was not recorded for Surround applications).

Thanks to our proprietary technology, we can even imprint a Surround-like effect onto two-track material (AMSI = Ambient Surround Imaging)."

http://www.emil-berliner-studios.com/en/special_services_surround.php

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
08-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 11550
Reply to: 11549
The DG’s Tonmeisters would never pass it
fiogf49gjkf0d

Guys, I think you are missing the point.

Regardless what technology the DG used the DG’ “Originals” series are in away different as they (allegedly) do use technology to guide sound with those re-masters but rather then use the trained ears of this own Tonmeisters. The DG Tonmeisters or Balance Engineers are no jerks - they are well trained in classical music, acoustics and electrical engineering people with properly set listening culture (reportedly) and with ability to understand what they hear. If you look for the “Originals” releases from 90s then you would truly hear the quality of very well-groomed balance of re-masters and in some cased the re- balance.  The problems that I reposted would NEVER pass the DG’ Tonmeisters control, never! This is why I was thinking that it was not the DG authentic CD.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 11551
Reply to: 11550
Not so subtle at all...
fiogf49gjkf0d
as it sounds now, and what seems to be the issue.
Why not contact DG and find out what THEY have to say, that'd be educational, no?!

There was this saying about DG: "Good news, DG stopped making vinyl!" The bad news is, -- now they make CDs!!

I'd put my trust first in the early RCA and then DECCA sound engineers - and after a little gap let the DG's Tonemeister follow.

During the 80s and early 90s they were also affected by what's been called the 'zisch-bum' sound made famous by German speaker manufacturers such as Canton, ELAK, Heco, Quadral, Isophon, and so forth. It was supposed to be superior to what was called the 'English sound', being a lot mellower/warmer and less -resolved-...

DG's recording tone always came up with a more stringent (not to say stringy or lean) sound, some expression of "Prussian Perfection" I'm sure --- but it would NOT/NEVER include any kind of 'speed-wobble' that I'd agree with.

If I'm correct, most of all major brands/lables have been combined under the Bertelsmann 'umbrella' and they might just have their stuff made in China (like everyone and his uncle does)...

Axel
08-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 156
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 6
Post ID: 11554
Reply to: 11547
A longshot, I know
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The sound of Vienna is sliding off tonality like it would do with a record playing that has problems with disc stability.


In another thread on binaural beats, you said, "... next to my Lavry Gold I notices that Pacific has a very-very slightly differed pitch."

Could there be any connection here? I mean, is it possible that different digital recorders/processors used along the way by DG have caused shifts in tonality?

Also, I'd be interested to know what a typical tonmeister's role is in producing a recording. Do they have any influence beyond the original recording itself, through the mixing and mastering stages? (I'm just curious because when I was 16, I wanted to become a tonmeister. I didn't quite know what it was, but had an affinity towards it nevertheless. My physics was OK, but as I never learned how to read music, it was a non-starter!)

Mani
'would-be tonmeister'... even for DG
08-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 11559
Reply to: 11554
Pirated CDs
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,

I purchased a few CDs from Amazon or Ebay last year that sounded terrible. 

After some analysis of the printing on the CD packaging, I noted some minor imperfections. On a whim I plugged the UPC code (the price bar) into google and sure enough the code on the Amazon CD case liner was wrong.  I then purchased another copy of the same CD at a legitimate local CD dealer and noted a difference in the level of compression between the two.  Although I did not test the frequency responses of the CDs, I suspect there was some type of MP3 downloaded from the internet then produced by a pirate.

You might try the same experiment, perhaps looking at the frequency response of the Amazon CD vs. that of a CD obtained from a more secure source.
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 8
Post ID: 11562
Reply to: 11559
Music and Sound Recording (Tonmeister) (4 years) BMus (Hons)...
fiogf49gjkf0d
sounds like just what Romy could have excelled in for a carrier ---- because beyond the maths you need to have EARS and DISCERMENT for what is being recorded and exactly how it's done. (I met some sound engineers that did NOT strike me very musically qualified at all!)

Going with Romy's ongoing battle with just too many people in the industry that are clueless, it might not end with Audio-Morons but easily extend to idiot sound engineering -- who would say not so?

It is my understanding that in the currently depraved sound engineering environment (compression ueber alles!) just about everything goes. The digital medium mislead those 'experts' to mess with it to their hearts delight. Patching, level adjustments, expanding, COMPRESSION galore, etc. It is of course slowly being understood that each and every 'digital reshaping' is adding sound deterioration. Once again it's not what was first expected that digital would provide - the ultimate robustness of simple 0 and 1 only. If it was that 'robust' why should even some cheap Chinese pirate copy suffer?

Last point on the 'sliding' effect of the reproduction. For reasons known, orchestras (at least in the past) did NOT adhere to the same pitch for tuning (A = 440Hz), subject 'pitch inflation'. The a' could have been anything from 380Hz! to ~ 460Hz in the not so recent past.
If I listen to some recordings of different orchestras but the same musical pieces one can VERY clearly produce a pitch-slide effect also - when switching from the one to the other. The effect subsides mostly after a while, BUT there is such a thing a 'musical memory' and it also includes the 'known' pitch! If as in the case of the older Vienna SO recorded e.g. the "New World Symphony" with Kubelik and then one listens to the Berlin SO with the same conductor recorded many years later, the Vienna's had their a' tuned lower and so they sound darker and 'slower' then the BSO.
Axel
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 11565
Reply to: 11562
The Tonmeisters, 48 channels and the under-table DG
fiogf49gjkf0d

Scooter, I was thinking myself if it was a pirated CD and I very carefully inspected it, I did not found any signs of not authenticity but I am not expect in it. To me it looks like a legitimate DG album. Though I admit that with contemporary mean of production anyone on basement can make undistinguishable pirate CDs.

Now about the Mani’s idea. I have to admit that Tonmeister title make me horny as well. The word itself is such a powerful – what a fantastic name for a cartridge, or for an amplifier, or for a compression driver! I do not k now what tonmeister do at DG, I ma sure what they do is different from what they would describe they do in their resumes. The concept as I understand is to dedicate special people during recording and mastering process whose responsibility would be to balancing the technical efforts in order to assure that the final sound of a product has some resemblance to how it shall be. I see the Audio Morons who listen non-classical music blinking these stupid eyes and asking “What do you mean how it shall be?” Well, there is a reason why I call them the Morons… BTW, Mani if you even go do multichannel acoustic system with multi-amping then you will see that you are THE Tonmeister and you will be able to make any orchestra to sound in any way you wish. The difference would be that DG Tonmeister need to convince the whole world that their vision of Sound is correct. You, as a Tonmeister of own playback, would need to convince yours that you get correct Sound and this is a way more difficult and noble task.

Now, returning to your idea of different digital recorders/processors. Possible, in different sense, but this is where the DG Tonmeisters shall be QA the problem out. When I said “in different sense” then here is what I meant. That Kleiber recording was a studio digital recording; most likely they used many different tracks to record each microphone of group or microphones. So, the “master” of this recording is perhaps 16 or 48 different digital tracks that they mix together. Now, if you listed the recording carefully then you will see that there is very slight slide of tone with certain orchestral sections when they play loud. It is almost like strings woodwinds and brasses are tunes slightly different. Yes, I well familiar with difference of Vienna sound, I, like those differences and do appreciate them:

http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=viennese_sound

However, what is demonstrated on this CD is NOT that but it rather a different tune between the sections _ would say it hardly be possible at the level of Vienna Philharmonic and Carlos Kleiber. So, it might be that some of the let say 48 different digital tracks were processed during the DG re-mastering with different type of possessors (like the Lavry Gold pitch vs. Pacific pitch). If the tracks # 5-6-7-8 had the digital feed from the microphones that cared first violins but the tracks # 25-26-27-28 had the digital feed from the microphones that cared let say woodwinds and if they were mastered with possessors of different pitch then it might be the effect.  However, this is what the Tonmeister are for…

Anyhow, I do not know what the problem is but something is very much off on this CD. Am not a huge fun of THIS specific Kleiber recording, I feel Barbirolli, Giulini in Japan and Bruno Walter did better job, particularly with first and second movements. What Kleiber in my view "owns" is the third and partialy the last movement, which is truly remarkable in his reading.  I know the DG will re-master the recording very soon and release it at motherfucking SACD. I do not buy the SACD but it might be interesting if any of you buy then let me know if they fixed the problem.

http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/essg90018/indexe.html

it is if it was a problem in there and the CD that I got is not a pirated CD… BTW, it very much possible that the very same Chinese pane that presses the DG disks “after-house” press the “left” disks that do not go over the DG quality control. I have seen it many times before, what the hell, I run such an operation myself, and I know that it is very possible…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 11568
Reply to: 11565
Low cost re-issues
fiogf49gjkf0d
After buying Channel Classics' re-issue of Rachmaninov S2 by Fischer and Budapest FO in their low cost Canal Grande series I contacted the company to enquire if there were any differences between this and the original CD.
Here's the reply:

The Canal Grande series would be normal cds. There are a few recordings  (Budapest Festival Orchestra oa.) that are originally in SACD. But if SACD is not an interest to you, then this series is fine.
Concerning the sound quality of   normal cd's. This series is being copied from sending in one of the pressed cd's. Not from the original mastertapes where master cd's are made from. Whether the difference in masters will be audible to everyone's ears is a point for much discussion. Of course the older cd process had the problem of copying the tapes everytime you had to make a correction as to having computer based systems today. Every time a copy was made there was always some bit correction going on that degraded the original signal.

I guess we can expect anything from Record Companies.

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
Page 1 of 1 (10 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  About digital files and definition of “masters”...  HD or not HD...  Didital Things  Forum     4  27528  04-09-2008
  »  New  Analog vs. Digital... without BS...  If we are into a valid comparison - should we not compa...  Didital Things  Forum     22  109543  04-15-2009
  »  New  K2HD -yet, another CD format with ‘master tape’ paranoi..  K2HD -yet, another CD format with ‘master tape’ paranoi...  Didital Things  Forum     0  14427  07-09-2008
  »  New  Today’s SACD - music for oscilloscopes. ..  Teresa Goodwin and her girly things....  Didital Things  Forum     8  71727  04-30-2005
  »  New  CD Is Dead. CD Is Dead?..  Yes, they might say it (aging) but…....  Didital Things  Forum     4  27282  10-28-2006
  »  New  Japanese Super High Material CD..  Well, I din't like it...  Didital Things  Forum     16  91174  01-20-2008
  »  New  Audiophile Re-issues: What's Lost and What's Gained?..  The Mahler’s MTT and SF on vinyl....  Analog Playback Forum     11  52100  05-31-2009
  »  New  It takes balls to shop (never mind the nuts)..  so...  Playback Listening  Forum     22  114982  12-23-2006
  »  New  A playback and wrong notes...  Why is it not common practice?...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  38258  03-12-2007
  »  New  About the Critical Audio Tune ™..  “Critical Audio Tune” bay-leave in the soup......  Playback Listening  Forum     5  33485  08-29-2009
  »  New  Johannes Brahms - Symphony No.4, Carlos Kleiber, Wiener..  Did anybody observe that Brahms comes with waves?...  Musical Discussions  Forum     8  37212  10-21-2009
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