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12-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12429
Reply to: 12429
The 5-ways from Germany.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I have to admit that since the torch of sane sounding horn-loaded loudspeakers nowadays in my hands (among the outspoken people with web presences) I feel sort of an obligation to comment about new interesting species enrolling in “my” domain.

Over this weekend I was introduced (virtually) to a 5-wasy installation from Germany upon which I would like to comment.  I requested more information about drivers, crossover points, throat decameters and the way how the channels are amplified. The system owner has access to my site and might post the information, including the thoughts he used to come up with some steps that he took. Warn you that from what I concluded in his emails the owner is not a typical internet yahoo that are breeding nowadays like mushroom after rain but he actually has own thoughts about development and use of horns. I do not think he has own site (I was not able to find) and I would like to take advantage of this thread as a platform to think about what this German installation offers 

It is 5-ways, mostly GOTO driver all horn playback. Right from beginning when I saw the very first picture I begin to count the number of the midbass horn leafs. What I got 11 leafs then I said to myself – “OK, the guy (Reinhard or Klaus?) is not a regular Moron”. Learn, the fools – this is how thinking in horns manifests itself. For the guy to make 11 leafs of 12 leafs on his sectoral horns had no difference but he chose uneven number. I stressed the very same point many times before at my site but no one who produce/use the sectoral horns cares about the unparalleling the leafs/sections.

Klaus_5wayHorns.jpg

Anyhow, the installation looks like use the MF Island, upperbass and midbass horns. The upperbass looks like a true full-size 100Hz with 2” throat. The midbass looks like 1/2-1/4 size of let say 40Hz mouth with 4” throat. The owner is a big GOTO fan:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=12427

But I do not know if for midbass horn was used GOTO driver.  The GOTO bass drivers are sealed and do not require back chamber. Reinhard’s midbass horn has HUGE back chamber. So, I presume that ether it uses a conventional drivers or Reinhard does in there something intricate with driver resonance to deal with throat reactance. The idea of the midbass horn on own rollable platform is superb – I love and if I render my real-estate project then I would consider to mimic it. Also in this configuration the damping and bracing might be added if necessary – love it! I would not mention that rotating the horn on axis for 90 or 180 degree it is possible to mount it to wall or ceiling. It is VERY interesting how the upperbass and midbass horns are crossed, the Reinhard’s about the impact of that crossover to sound and preferably the sweeps of individuals upperbass and midbass channels and combined.  Also it is very “kinky” moment how the delay from upperbass interacts with the delay from midbass. I know that not a lot of people would understand it but there are ways to “spread delays” or to use what I call the “distributed delays”. This system would be a perfect playground to experiment with it.

Klaus_Midbass_Horn.jpg

A few things that I would do different with this playback. I would flip the positions of upperbass and midbass. The midbass closer to the wall will pickup up some LF extension as the vertical mouth would go larger. The most important is that LF souses would not be emanated from the space between the MF souses – a big “no-no” in my book. It will do a phenomenal advance in imaging. It looks like the system is built in attic and the midbass bail is inserted into two opening on the back wall. I would keep everything as is but just turn the midbass on diagonal toward to the wall. I will not be as sexy but it will be very good for sound as the LF from midbass are shooting now directly to listening position and the bass has no room to develop itself. Unless midbass is 50 feet away I would prefer to use reflected midbass, when the midbass is matured. I have written about it a few times. So, the midbass neck will be going across from the hole in the wall and will not abstract the MF Island, if I will then the MF Island would move a bit closer. Actually it would be even more fun to make two other holes in the wall on extreme left and right, put in there the midbass’ tail and to point the midbass alongside of the wall, aiming it to the back of the room. That would give a LOT of room for bass to develop until the main reflection hits listener spot.

Ansyhow, it is interesting installation and I would like to know more about it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12431
Reply to: 12429
More about the 5-ways from Germany
fiogf49gjkf0d

A correction: the installation above is not Reinhard’s but by Klaus Speth. Klaus and Reinhard experiment with audio together and Reinhard has his own Goto setup. Here is more information about Klaus’ system with Reinhard’s comments:

Midbass horns: are there are two 20 cycle bass horns which normally have 6,50 m in length and 3,20 in mouth diametre (we had that for testing purposes and we thought, well, that's it, the space is there and the depth to be able to listen to, but to our surprise it was not !  they didn't perform that well, astonishingly neither with natural nor electronical time alignment), so Klaus cut them down to 4 m to get rid of the time delay. They are not - as one might presume only from the mouth diametre - 40 or 50 cycle horns, they are true 20 cycle, but cut off. These horns run from 30 - 70 cycles, each with double Goto SG38WN membrane bass - not Goto compression driver.

Uperbass horns: are 70 cycle horns, see photo, which are about 2 m in depth and which run from 70 - 200 cycles, each fed with one SG146LD bass compression driver… Yes, it is eleven leaves, not twelve. Right, because of the nature of the produced waves. Klaus didn't want to have any reflections and so on by horn amplification. For exactly the same reason the listening room - which is some 130 square meters with about 14 m in depth - is not rectangular, there is nothing parallel, the walls in depth go out for one meter in the run... so no standing waves and disturbing reflections and so on... Klaus started with 8 leaves, then 10 and then 11 - which to my feel is the best...

Midrange: Goto SG505DX with S150 horn

Tweeter: Goto SG370DX with S600 horn

SuperTweeter: Goto SG160

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12433
Reply to: 12431
A very pleasant surprise
fiogf49gjkf0d

I think this post need to have an epigrapher:

“We knew what we wanted to hear, and so we developped, and developped, and developped... In hundreds of small and bigger steps. Over thirty years. Till we were "there" where we always wanted to be, but nobody had or could offer for sale” - Reinhard

It is not a secret that I have very low expectations from audio people in regard to audio subjects. The Audio Morons feel that it is because my “personal anger” and they create their stupid and very self-incrementing theories about it. I do feel that horn people in majority are Morons, and nowhere their Moronity manifests itself as deep as in web horno-pornography. You can see again and again on internet a picture of a horn system but neither the system owner nor the fools who look at the picture able to grasp what the see or show. The photographs do not create in Morons a need or an interest to analyze and the think what they see/present at the pictures. A picture of an audio installation and 4923873 idiots reply with the mandatory “Dude, that is awesome!” and any further for “audio intellectualism” is depleted with that. Tell me that it is not a regular behavior for audio Morons and I would reply that you are catapulted from other planet.

What is particularly interesting system owners are also mostly out of the expressive depth. Generally a system owner has very little individual thoughts about he does. If an owner does have some thoughts then his thoughts are mostly just fragments of marketing BS that he picked here and there. It is no surprise as most of the playback owners are very accidental people in audio and they have as a result a very accidental sound in their listening rooms. Do you remember the nowadays demised Greek Audio Club? They had a guy who was traveling around the world, visiting different Hi-Fi folks and publishing interviews with them. I did read at that site all interviews with people who built horns installations and I was very displeased from what I read. The people recited the equipment they own but practically none of them were able to make sensible commentaries about the Sound they are greeting in relation to the audio actions they made.  I am not even taking about the advancement of listening experiences projected by audio means – that was way off the table of interests for those people…

Anyhow, since am talking about all of it in context of the Klaus/Reinhard installation I would like to point that that it looks Klaus and Reinhard might be Real. Reinhard initially contacted me to inform me about my ignorance regarding Goto divers. I do not use Goto divers and I do not think I commented about them I rather was and am very critical about the way in which Goto users used the Goto drivers. Anyhow, communicating  with Reinhard further I discover that there is a lot of things cooking on in Reinhard’s head on the subject of horns systems and I felt that  is worthy to share. Below are some Reinhard fragments. Posting it I do not “endorse” what Reinhard say.  Some of the thing I find are very good, with some I disagree and some I things that he said I do not know. Still, behind the Reinhard commentaries there is sense of conviction, a sense of interest and the common sense - the senses that is so frequently is in shortage with HI-FI people:

These are the results of 30 years (in words: thirty) of research and development in bass horns. Nowadays nearly everybody is talking about horns, and especially bass horns, Tactrix, exponential, hyperbolic... But the discussion seems always very isolated and concentrated on only one type of horn at the time without any possibilities of listening comparison in reality, and hardly anybody seems to really concentrate and nail it down on the last two octaves from 16 - 32 and 32 - 64 cycles which very severely determine the mid and high range reproduction, they think they have a horn and that's it. No, unfortunately it is not...
 
We have been "through" all sorts of horns, i.e. we have built them all. Yes, and we have started with the first straight 40 cycle horn with some 4 m in length and 2,70 mouth diameter back in 1983 with the first ever available Goto Bass Compression Driver SG146LD. Since then we are in HiFi-heaven. And since then we have built and listened to all the other types of bass horns because we just wanted to know for ourselves. And because at the time we did not know anybody with practical listening experiences regarding this specific theme we did it all by ourselves. So we built all different types of horns up to a length of 6,50 m and 3,20 m in opening mouth diameter. And over the years we have visited and listened to all "big" systems in Europe to hear what it is all about with horns in general and specific. The only ones missing in our "collection", i.e. we have not yet listened to till today, is the Western Electric WE15 with the original drivers from the 1920ies, which we will "do" rather shortly.
 
I don't want to use the word "better". It doesn't say that much. It is the same with vinyl and/or CD. With a "good" system you will always listen to "music". And that's what we do: listening to music and nothing but music, no more system - and hardly any source - evident in reproduction. And we get the right "pressure" for the sound, we "get" the organ in a church in reproduction, down to 30 cycles precise in some 11 m distance from the mouth of the bass horns, clearly and without any boom-boom... The horns are only "big tailored" in the sense of practicing precisely physical laws, of precisely working out what they "get" from the amps, not more, but also not less.
 
But not only the horns. As well the amplification. Been through all highest end: Mark Levinson, Macintosh, Audio Research... no amplification really did what we wanted to have rsp. hear. And what we wanted (and what we have now) was : input = output, without any add ones and without any deduction. And we wanted all Class A. Because the sound of Class A was so spectacular. And at that time Jean Hiraga had just developed his "Le Monstre" 7 Watt mono Class A, which we took as a model and then optimized during time. So we now have all Class A, 10 Amps, one for each driver, two 4 resp. 5 channel crossovers, and one pre-amp. And during the last years we have all amplification extended to separate controlled power supply for each unit. That was a huge step forward. It made the whole sound not only crystal clear but really stable down to the lowest frequencies, and the boom-boom was completely gone. And at that time we had already listened extensively to all highest end systems in Europe. And it was immediately clear what we didn't want to have and what we wanted to have. So we continuously worked on it.
 
By the way, we never ever followed any "new horn fashion". We wanted to check them all out. One after another. And we did. To get our own impression. And it was and still is just the sound that we are interested in. And nothing but the sound. And after all self-experiences we keep with the Goto philosophy: Kugelwellen-horn. We knew (at least we had a deep feel inside) what we wanted to hear, and so we developed, and developed, and developed... In hundreds of small and bigger steps. Over thirty years. Till we were "there" where we always wanted to be, but nobody had or could offer for sale. And "there" we are now in a sense that we have a platform where nothing in music is disturbing, no matter what source or music you play or what loudness. But one thing we wanted urgently was playing at highest levels and "feel" the music live with the natural sound pressure on the stomach. But not "loud", we wanted it "naturally loud", that is something different. That is to adjust a voice in playback at that level as if someone is singing in front of you, or playing an instrument or...
 
Crossover: Yes, we neither were content with available crossovers with phase shifting and so on... So we let build crossovers without phase shifting, because we wanted to have that and because we realized that the industry does have no interest in generating products like this... and the frequencies are cut according to the Goto recommendations: natural octaves, and I have to admit: that works for me. 4 resp. five way.
 
During all our constructions and research and developments regarding the horns (we did not build the amps ourselves that made a physician according to our proposals) we found one thing to be the quintessence in reproduction: the squares. No matter at all what source you are listening to. The more we optimized the squares horizontally and vertically in amplification (and within the sources of course, i.e. Vinyl- and CD-players) the more natural the sound came out of the horns. Result: what you do not put in, you cannot get out.
 
While Klaus is using some "older" Goto drivers (which have nothing lost regarding their magic), I use all highest end Goto beryllium drivers, i.e. SG188BL, SG3880BL, SG5880BL and SG146LD for the bass (30 - 200 cycles). Expensive? Yes. But cheap as well. Because they bring me - whenever I want - into paradise without dying. The throat diametre mid range is 75 cm (200 - 1000 cycles), the highs 21 cm (1000 - 5000 cycles) and super high 3 cm (5.000 - open end).
 
For me the most important thing was the Goto SG146LD. Klaus started with a straight 10 leafs 40 cycle horn in 1983. And it was awesome. SG146LD is the only compression bass driver which does not produce boom-boom if fed right. The SG146LD contrarily is on first impression not to be heard as bass, first you think, hey it is wrong, it is not connected, but then you realize, what they are doing, they integrate completely homogeneously into the sound, totally natural, like a royal soufflé, no more "cuts" between bass and mid-range (especially in the voices), just "one" sound. Marvellous. Really marvelous. And they make the right pressure. 113 db/watt/m... and you can put some 35 watts in there... and you get volume like on stage... and nothing disturbing...
 
Perhaps one has to get used to that sound a little at first, because it is so "unspectacular" without boom-boom, but then there is no way back... nearly exactly the same is with their membrane basses...But, please keep in mind, we are exploring new territory ... nobody was able to advise us so far... and we are still learning... deeply learning...the adjustment of all those horns is not yet finished... and now comes the next big revolution: high resolution digital stream...

Romy, you wrote: "...no one talk about the SOUND of Goto drivers, neither the driver owners nor the driver’s salers.   I still hope to hear from someone who has a direct experience with Gotos about the sound of those drivers…" if it is like that then let me try.
 
1. As is with all drivers and horns: they only sound as good as with what they are fed; if the amplification is good, i.e. squares, the sound is good; if the amplification is weak or bad, the sound is like that (and that begins within the vinyl-system and the error correction in CD-players; so, wherever we start, we start "bad", exception: reproduction from computer files). The horns in itself are "neutral", but it is obviously very hard to reach that aim...
 
2. The drivers of Goto. Well it is like cars from Daimler Benz Mercedes. You have a range from A 180 to 560 SLC and on top formula 1 racing cars. They all drive fine. And there are lots of cars from other societies, which are comparable and which drive fine as well. But at the absolute top it is getting otherwordly unique... with the material beryllium... (but that material is not easy to implement; although not bad, the TADs beryllium have no chance in direct comparion to Goto beryllium!) the sound gets that light, that easy, that uncomplicated, that natural, it is on the border of no more being sound, the differences between an original and reproduction are really neglectable, nothing disturbing, you can listen for hours and hours and hours, and you scream for "More, More, More..."
 
3. The Gotos could not at all "open" as we are used to and show what they are capable of. The sound was steril. Like kissing your aunt and nothing happens. Get me right: there were no mistakes, not at all, one can easily live with that, it is just that we did not like the outcoming sound, the sterilness, the lifelessness, there was no "breathing"...
 
4. So what are the Gotos capable of?
    4.1. Although they measure badly, they sound best. We do not understand why, but it is like that. But when you listen to their sound, you are not really interested in measurements, although we do that of course: Goto says: "You shall not measure, you shall listen!" I have to admit: Yes, it is like that. Although I like measurement controls. They are necessary, but I had to learn, that they practically say nothing about the "sound", as to be seen with the totally flat curves at Jean-Yves.
    4.2. Their sound pressure brings you to life atmosphere, exactly there where other drivers are off limits, not that they are not able to play loud, but you are not willing to crank them up to that level because there will come up things you will not listen to and which with Gotos simply are not there...
    4.3. The neutrality of the reproduction - well I repeat: if amplified correct - is jaw dropping, awesome
    4.4. The mode of reproduction is not only natural, it is easy as well; when you reach a natural reproduction level, i.e. a voice is like a voice, a guitar like a guitar, you feel no need to crank futher up because of the lack of dynamics...
    4.5. The preciseness of reproduction (well, again depending on the squares of the amplification)
    4.6. The "easiness" with which they do it: 113 db/Watt/m, respectively 116db/Watt/m, it is like riding 60 miles/hour and you don't realize that you are driving
    4.7. The dynamics, the capability of transferring loudest impulses out of nothing and that easy - makes you shiver
    4.8. Closest to reality what I have heard in my life
    4.9. You will realize most what Goto really is, when you remove the drivers one by one out of your system and put in others...
    4.10. for me the best description of the impression of the sound is: the modesty, the unspectacularness, you are missing things, exactly those things that other drivers do wrong and/or are not capable of...
 
For Klaus and me it is "it". Not to say that other systems do not sound good or very good. But there are certain things only Goto is capable of. One has to hear this to believe. And the result is: nodding with your head. That's the sound of Goto. You will never go back..
 
P.S. I am totally aware of the fact that in reproduction all things are more or less compromises. The only aim we can follow is to minimize the impression of listening to something coming out of a conserve...




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12439
Reply to: 12433
A few comments in context of the Reinhard's notes
fiogf49gjkf0d

I find that one of the most interning and stimulating ideas that you expressed was your experience with your bass horn

 Reinhard wrote:
Midbass horns: are there are two 20 cycle bass horns which normally have 6,50 m in length and 3,20 in mouth diametre (we had that for testing purposes and we thought, well, that's it, the space is there and the depth to be able to listen to, but to our surprise it was not !  they didn't perform that well, astonishingly neither with natural nor electronical time alignment), so Klaus cut them down to 4 m to get rid of the time delay. They are not - as one might presume only from the mouth diametre - 40 or 50 cycle horns, they are true 20 cycle, but cut off.

You are saying that gong fro ¼ size horn without even loading it to boundaries gave some advantage. This is very interesting. Going from ½ horn size to ¼ horn size you reduced the throat reactance, did you play with back chamber and driver resonance or you just cut the horn until it make the Goto driver to sound better?

 Reinhard wrote:
… But the discussion seems always very isolated and concentrated on only one type of horn at the time without any possibilities of listening comparison in reality, and hardly anybody seems to really concentrate and nail it down on the last two octaves from 16 - 32 and 32 - 64 cycles which very severely determine the mid and high range reproduction

Who could believe!
 

 Reinhard wrote:
And since then we have built and listened to all the other types of bass horns because we just wanted to know for ourselves. And because at the time we did not know anybody with practical listening experiences regarding this specific theme we did it all by ourselves.

Really cool, here is where I truly envy.
 

 Reinhard wrote:
  So we now have all Class A, 10 Amps, one for each driver, two 4 resp. 5 channel crossovers, and one pre-amp. And during the last years we have all amplification extended to separate controlled power supply for each unit. That was a huge step forward. It made the whole sound not only crystal clear but really stable down to the lowest frequencies, and the boom-boom was completely gone.

Welcome to the DSET world. BTW, you need to get rid of your 5 channel crossovers and imbed the filter into your 10 amps.
 

 Reinhard wrote:
  Crossover: Yes, we neither were content with available crossovers with phase shifting and so on... So we let build crossovers without phase shifting, because we wanted to have that and because we realized that the industry does have no interest in generating products like this... and the frequencies are cut according to the Goto recommendations: natural octaves, and I have to admit: that works for me.

Well, I do not believe in crossovers “without phase shifting”. What might be interesting it to understand the “the Goto recommendations of natural octaves”. I do not know what it is.
 

 Reinhard wrote:
  SG146LD is the only compression bass driver which does not produce boom-boom if fed right.

Hmmmm, I do not understand it. The boom-boom is NOT the properly of driver but the properly of the drivers performance. You can make ANY driver to do boom-boom and you can make any driver do not have the boom-boom…

 

 Reinhard wrote:
  The SG146LD contrarily is on first impression not to be heard as bass, first you think, hey it is wrong, it is not connected, but then you realize, what they are doing, they integrate completely homogeneously into the sound, totally natural, like a royal soufflé, no more "cuts" between bass and mid-range (especially in the voices), just "one" sound. Marvellous. Really marvelous. And they make the right pressure. 113 db/watt/m... and you can put some 35 watts in there... and you get volume like on stage... and nothing disturbing...

Never heard this driver, not mention properly used. Perhaps my US Goto rep would send me one for Xmas to try after I move into a new place…
 

 Reinhard wrote:
  Perhaps one has to get used to that sound a little at first, because it is so "unspectacular" without boom-boom, but then there is no way back... nearly exactly the same is with their membrane basses...But, please keep in mind, we are exploring new territory ... nobody was able to advise us so far... and we are still learning... deeply learning...the adjustment of all those horns is not yet finished... and now comes the next big revolution: high resolution digital stream...

Yes, it  is difficult to get advisement as audio people are not accustomed to properly reproduced bass and the run bass 3-4 dB more then it shell be. I was there….

 Reinhard wrote:
let me try.
 
1. As is with all drivers and horns: they only sound as good as with what they are fed; if the amplification is good, i.e. squares, the sound is good; if the amplification is weak or bad, the sound is like that (and that begins within the vinyl-system and the error correction in CD-players; so, wherever we start, we start "bad", exception: reproduction from computer files). The horns in itself are "neutral", but it is obviously very hard to reach that aim...
 
2. The drivers of Goto. Well it is like cars from Daimler Benz Mercedes. You have a range from A 180 to 560 SLC and on top formula 1 racing cars. They all drive fine. And there are lots of cars from other societies, which are comparable and which drive fine as well. But at the absolute top it is getting otherwordly unique... with the material beryllium... (but that material is not easy to implement; although not bad, the TADs beryllium have no chance in direct comparion to Goto beryllium!) the sound gets that light, that easy, that uncomplicated, that natural, it is on the border of no more being sound, the differences between an original and reproduction are really neglectable, nothing disturbing, you can listen for hours and hours and hours, and you scream for "More, More, More..."
 
3. The Gotos could not at all "open" as we are used to and show what they are capable of. The sound was steril. Like kissing your aunt and nothing happens. Get me right: there were no mistakes, not at all, one can easily live with that, it is just that we did not like the outcoming sound, the sterilness, the lifelessness, there was no "breathing"...
 
4. So what are the Gotos capable of?
    4.1. Although they measure badly, they sound best. We do not understand why, but it is like that. But when you listen to their sound, you are not really interested in measurements, although we do that of course: Goto says: "You shall not measure, you shall listen!" I have to admit: Yes, it is like that. Although I like measurement controls. They are necessary, but I had to learn, that they practically say nothing about the "sound", as to be seen with the totally flat curves at Jean-Yves.
    4.2. Their sound pressure brings you to life atmosphere, exactly there where other drivers are off limits, not that they are not able to play loud, but you are not willing to crank them up to that level because there will come up things you will not listen to and which with Gotos simply are not there...
    4.3. The neutrality of the reproduction - well I repeat: if amplified correct - is jaw dropping, awesome
    4.4. The mode of reproduction is not only natural, it is easy as well; when you reach a natural reproduction level, i.e. a voice is like a voice, a guitar like a guitar, you feel no need to crank futher up because of the lack of dynamics...
    4.5. The preciseness of reproduction (well, again depending on the squares of the amplification)
    4.6. The "easiness" with which they do it: 113 db/Watt/m, respectively 116db/Watt/m, it is like riding 60 miles/hour and you don't realize that you are driving
    4.7. The dynamics, the capability of transferring loudest impulses out of nothing and that easy - makes you shiver
    4.8. Closest to reality what I have heard in my life
    4.9. You will realize most what Goto really is, when you remove the drivers one by one out of your system and put in others...
    4.10. for me the best description of the impression of the sound is: the modesty, the unspectacularness, you are missing things, exactly those things that other drivers do wrong and/or are not capable of...
 
For Klaus and me it is "it". Not to say that other systems do not sound good or very good. But there are certain things only Goto is capable of. One has to hear this to believe. And the result is: nodding with your head. That's the sound of Goto. You will never go back…

Reinhard, thanks a lot. I wish my local US rep open his mouth and spread some Goto propaganda not you. No one talks about Goto sound unfortunately. I heard two Goto systems (MF drivers), generally like what I heard but they were not up seriously setup, so I did not expect too much from them. I do not know Goto sound but from what I hear myself, from what you guys Goto user express and from my own experiment with high magnetic forces drivers I might not feel that I might not necessary will be thrilled what Goto would do. I think to make any further comment somebody like you and somebody like me need to hear the sound of others and to understand what we are trying to make with sound. The reason why I have concerns about Goto sound is that I kind of looking for slightly different properly in sound then what you describe.  If you hear my sound then you would understand it. How I would characterize my sound, or at least how I would like it to be? I would call it as “Strategically-Bacteriological Bound”. I would like sound to be infested by an army of flash-eating parasites their “distraction” shall be very-well quantified by my will and by intend.  I am a bit afraid that Goto might be a bit too neutral for me. I do not mean coloration, I mean the Bacteriological control.  My Vitavox is neutral and colorful but it is not enough for me. My sound is a combination of a few very fine palettes. And I do not think that at this point my sound is a derivative from a performance of a single driver – the “art” of my sound is in proper balance of a few ingredients of the big salt. So, even if you stop by at place and bring your MF Goto driver then I have a very high probably that I would find it too clean and would add to it something from my “bacteriological” menu. I think it might be mutually educational….

The problem is that with those freaking horns to put a single MF driver in system, to understand it, to make it to work properly is a month of work….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 12444
Reply to: 12431
30 well-spent years
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks Romy for showing us this work and the thoughts of its creator(s).

I'll say it again; the world needs more people like these guys: Human creativity remains the only saving grace of an otherwise pathetic species.
 
It would be most excellent if Klaus and Reinhard (Reinhardt ?) would consider sharing more of their experiences here (text, or just images), though I'd completely understand, and would actually expect to find them very reluctant to do so.

Reinhard wrote:
 
"... Midbass horns: There are two 20 cycle bass horns which normally have 6,50 m in length and 3,20 in mouth diametre (we had that for testing purposes and we thought, well, that's it, the space is there and the depth to be able to listen to, but to our surprise it was not !  they didn't perform that well, astonishingly neither with natural nor electronical time alignment), so Klaus cut them down to 4 m to get rid of the time delay..." 
 
Interesting: Physically cutting off a horn 2/3 of the way along its flare, where gain is happening, but is not yet really accelerated, and letting the room take it from there... With driver sensitivity at 113dB/Watt, it may well be possible to forgo some gain.  I'd like to know more...
 
Romy wrote:
 
"... Also it is very “kinky” moment how the delay from upperbass interacts with the delay from midbass. I know that not a lot of people would understand it but there are ways to “spread delays” or to use what I call the “distributed delays”. This system would be a perfect playground to experiment with it..."
 
The above statement and images of the system have me curious... I assume that at least some time alignment is done via electronic delays (this is possibly what is meant by "RESP" ???). Again, it would be interesting to hear from Klaus and Reinhard on this subject.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 12445
Reply to: 12444
The nature of the “Distributed Delays”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
 
Romy wrote:
 
"... Also it is very “kinky” moment how the delay from upperbass interacts with the delay from midbass. I know that not a lot of people would understand it but there are ways to “spread delays” or to use what I call the “distributed delays”. This system would be a perfect playground to experiment with it..."
 
The above statement and images of the system have me curious... I assume that at least some time alignment is done via electronic delays (this is possibly what is meant by "RESP" ???). Again, it would be interesting to hear from Klaus and Reinhard on this subject.

Do not Google the Distributed Delay - it does not exist. The Spread or the Distributed Delay is my “invention” if you can call of it as “invention”. The nature of the “Distributed Delay”, let call it DD, is complex.  It is not the complexity of DD itself but the complexity to interpret “where is right” as DD lives in a very murky water of ever-evolving perception. Let me to explain.

Let pretend that you have MF, Upperbass and Midbass channels – very much as Klaus and Reinhardt have.  Because the sizes of the horns are large at Midbass we have MF and Upperbass in time but the Midbass let say 7mSec delay.  We can use is as is or we can implement the Distributed Delay (DD). The DD approach implies that we set the Upperbass channel to have a delay between 0mSec and 7mSec. What it does is smearing some negative effects of time miss-alignment.

I discovered it once when I had a change to experiment with re-reposition musicians in orchestra.  I did not mange the musicians, the conductor did, but I had a chance to assess the results that I was looking for and had 360 degree access to orchestra from any sides. Locating different orchestral sections at the different distance in accordance to their frequency range I recognized that the time miss-alignment might be masked to a degree. Later on I modeled this behavior with small bass divers. It worked and it did not.

You see, the miss-aligned bass channel is a slave of a group delay. From a common sense perspective you might find a summit of a wave in the next few periods and align the driver in there.  If dose not work for Midbass as a next period is two streets way. Also, the miss-aligned bass and the bass group delay in some cases sound…. very pleasant.  I would even say that the majority of people who sing songs that bass are are great in realty so not react positively to bass sound coming from horns but rather the feel good hearing the bass group delays. I was able to mimic with two bass monitors the effect of “bass horns” just by change the distances between the monitors.  Add to it the fact that in Midbass over 50% of sound is the room reflections you would understand how murky the things are.

So, what the point of all of this? The point is that is it possible to have MF and Upperbass in phase but the Midbass with significant delay 7mSec delay. Then intentionally offsetting the Upperbass it is possible to make the Midbass to sound… differently. How much to offset Upperbass – imposable to say as very many thighs had to be considered (types of horns, crossovers, loadings, room, distances, refractions and summations etc, etc, etc…). It juts need to be heard and tuned by ears to make it to sound in the way how one feel it shall sound.

I still in favorer of absolute time alignment but with 3m-5m horns not a lot of people can consider it as a realistic possibility. The DD might be a good direction to experiment and Klaus and Reinhardt setup is a perfect playground for this.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 15008
Reply to: 12429
The Two allegedly Good Ears go to Germany
fiogf49gjkf0d

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2010/11/gotorama-leau-de-cologne-part-1.html

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2010/11/gotorama-leau-de-cologne-part-2.html

Honestly, I did not get a lot from those reports but it is what it is….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 8
Post ID: 15038
Reply to: 15008
... more from Germany, via France;-)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Roman and glad you read my minimalist reports;-)))
...as always, I'm only hinting, suggesting further reading and/or WEB surfing...
I'm (trying to) attach a link with Hiraga's essay/review after Klaus' and Reinhard's visit, last June...
I'll possibly will send via e-mail for your information (aehm, it's in French)... this for copyright reasons. 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
12-08-2010 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 15122
Reply to: 12429
German virtual reed!
fiogf49gjkf0d

A few days back I got a hold of an article in some kind of French publication and a site reader helped me to translate it. In the article Klaus and Reinhard reported that Arthur Benade’s helped them better understand the propagation of sound in horns. From the article the gist- translation:

“…Arthur Benade's work centered not on horns for audio, but on horns as musical instruments (physics of woodwinds 1960 and of brass 1973) stressed the influence of acoustic impedance of the reed (or lips working as a reed) as well as the theory that sound does not "exit" from the instrument, it is produced by an interaction, a "collision" between the sound emitted by the reed, the stationary waves, and the "back waves" (reflected waves formed at the mouth of the horn). These lessons have been employed in recent research, notably in an acoustic lab in Le Mans, France and at the CNRS (Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique). As a result of this research, in horn audio, we can deduce that the micro vibrations of the horn walls, though at -40dB relative to the sound emitted at the mouth, serves to color and give personality to the sound. Furthermore, beyond the formula of a "well-calculated" horn, these micro vibrations, particularly those near the throat, could have an indirect but spectacular effect on the geometry of the air column vibrating in the horn.”

Then below:

“…. The V-arrangement of the dual Goto SG-38W drivers was the result of many trials, backed up by and discovered while conducting a series of acoustic measurements and listening sessions. The V-arrangement is not symmetrical. The parallel but out of phase wiring of the coils allows, in the case of a positive signal, a "pinching" (throttling) effect in the forward propulsion of the air, and in the case of a negative signal, the opposite effect (a vacuum); think here of the reed effect stated above...”

This is superbly interesting. It looks like Klaus and Reinhard took my Resonance-Oops idea much further and were able to inject into the horn an active “Resonance-Oops” element but contra-phasing double driver on a single thought and use the neck length as the Resonance-Oops bias. I would say that it is a brilliant idea if it works. Of close to assess how it works is necessary to hear the thing - it is all about execution. Conceptually I might be possible to do not do what Klaus and Reinhard but to have a bass thought with a delay channel. Shaping the entrance to the delay channel, the delay channel geometry and the delay channel acoustic résistance I think it is possible to get the similar effect with a single driver and do not lose too much of the channel sensitivity.

virtual_reed.JPG


Anyhow, the idea ether as Klaus and Reinhard did is or as I propose to do it is hugely stimulating and I hope someone will take upon it.

I do have my own attitude toward musical interments as I feel that horn-shaped musical interments and audio horn are in fact different devises, called to address different tasks. Still, the injection of virtual reed into the driver and getting the Resonance-Oops out of it is truly great idea. If I go to Germany again then I would like to hear it.

There is an interesting catch in what Klaus and Reinhard did with their virtual reed. Is it tuned by speed or by pressure? That is very interesting as it would indicate it the virtual reed might act as “coloration”. To shape the question differently: Will the change of output impedance of amp will require changing the way how the virtual reed is tuned (length of the one leg of the Y)?

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-12-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 222
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 10
Post ID: 18379
Reply to: 15122
Horn musical instruments
fiogf49gjkf0d
Brass instruments function much differently than audio horns. First of all they are built extremely resonant by mismatching length and horn taper. The taper of the bell is there not for horn type efficiency, rather to change the acoustical length of the instrument depending on the played frequency. In addition, we get different notes out of the trumpet by "overblowing" the fundemental resonance. Our Pedal note is the fundemental - one wavelength in the instrument, let's call this note C, the next "natural note" is 2 wavelengths or one octave higher also a C. The next is 3 wave lengths (G), 4 wavelengths is a C again, 5=E, 6=G(octave higher than the 3 wavelength g), 7 is discordant but close to a Bb, 8 wavelengths are the octave again. This continues until the 17th overblown partial where the resonance of the instrument no longer is sufficient for control, the entire work is now performed by the lips.

It is interesting that the sound of the trumpet comes from acoustic mismatch. What we hear is what leaks out from the standing wave - NOT an amplified buzz of the lips! Throat and reactance matching on musical instruments is done with the construction of the mouthpiece


How does this apply to loudspeaker horns? Well, Romy has posted that we should NOT use the horns at the bottom of their calculated possible range. The reason is that they become resonant there like a musical horn. Overblowing is very much like harmonic distortion. The voice becomes that of the standing wave, not the driver. We need to use the horn in the range where we have pattern control, not resonant support.
The "feedback" that Klaus and Reinhard use actually could correspond to the braces used on brass instruments. They must be critically placed or the response and articulation is destroyed. Some of the braces on musical instruments are used for feedback, others short circuit resonance by damping it.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-13-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 18383
Reply to: 18379
Horn lookalike
fiogf49gjkf0d
But a TQWT looks better when it looks like a horn, see the Anima for example.
07-13-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 18384
Reply to: 18379
One note devise.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
Brass instruments function much differently than audio horns. First of all they are built extremely resonant by mismatching length and horn taper. The taper of the bell is there not for horn type efficiency, rather to change the acoustical length of the instrument depending on the played frequency. In addition, we get different notes out of the trumpet by "overblowing" the fundemental resonance. Our Pedal note is the fundemental - one wavelength in the instrument, let's call this note C, the next "natural note" is 2 wavelengths or one octave higher also a C. The next is 3 wave lengths (G), 4 wavelengths is a C again, 5=E, 6=G(octave higher than the 3 wavelength g), 7 is discordant but close to a Bb, 8 wavelengths are the octave again. This continues until the 17th overblown partial where the resonance of the instrument no longer is sufficient for control, the entire work is now performed by the lips.

It is interesting that the sound of the trumpet comes from acoustic mismatch. What we hear is what leaks out from the standing wave - NOT an amplified buzz of the lips! Throat and reactance matching on musical instruments is done with the construction of the mouthpiece


How does this apply to loudspeaker horns? Well, Romy has posted that we should NOT use the horns at the bottom of their calculated possible range. The reason is that they become resonant there like a musical horn. Overblowing is very much like harmonic distortion. The voice becomes that of the standing wave, not the driver. We need to use the horn in the range where we have pattern control, not resonant support.
The "feedback" that Klaus and Reinhard use actually could correspond to the braces used on brass instruments. They must be critically placed or the response and articulation is destroyed. Some of the braces on musical instruments are used for feedback, others short circuit resonance by damping it.

Rowuk, the subject you touched is incredibly interesting. Yes, acoustic horns are resonant devises but audio horns are not resonant devises, or better not to be. Still, I do not think that there are last fat dot in that statement.  I was thinking a lot about it in past. In my view the main difference between music horn and audio horn in not in compliance with resonant principle but in the fact that audio horn has no lips, or no controlling mechanism to express intend. If we has some kind of super adaptable driver in audio horn then we would be able to USE resonances in audio horns. Unfortunately we do not have active driver and the compression drivers that we use are all passive. We for sure might change in real time the way how our compression drivers operate but the degree we can change it not near where it might be used effectively. So, we basically in audio horn have one single set of lips that blow one single note all time. Our audio horn is effectively one note devise. If you look all theory of audio horn building then you will see that horns are not only narrow band devises but they have ultimate consideration ONLY for one single pitch and any deviation from it is deviation from “ultimate”. I am sure the Morons who propose a single horn from 20Hz to 20kHz will enjoy to read it.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-13-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 222
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 13
Post ID: 18389
Reply to: 18384
Hornlips?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,lips are a very interesting part of the resonant musical instrument.
I did an experiment many years ago by gluing a headphone driver to a mouthpiece and feeding it a sine wave, sawtooth and square wave. With the sawtooth and square wave the sound was very similar to an expressionless dead trumpet - with all of the frequency response however. So, we can play trumpet even without the lips. A speaker is enough to get the standing wave started and the leakage of the standing wave due to impedance mismatch is the same.
When I changed the frequency of the wave going into the horn, the acoustic impedance went WAY up and we lost over 12dB of volume until we got to the next frequency that fit in the partial series!
The lips alone are not sufficient for expression. The relaxed body, big breath of air, well tuned ears and brain, the acoustics of the room, even the presence of an audience all influence expression to a great degree. Without the integration of all those things, we have "musical morons". If we build speakers with lips, we need extra big brains to control them - even only for one note. I think integrating 5-7 speakers is tough enough. Just imagine if you had to tune your system to A=415Hz historic mean tone pitch, A=440Hz for standard 50s/60s/70s well tempered US Orchestra pitch, A=443Hz for modern European pitch and A=445Hz for Vienna pitch. I think that you go CRAZY! Wind instrument players need special optimization (different instruments) to accomodate the different tuning.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 22842
Reply to: 12429
Does anybody know where Reinhard and Klaus are from?
fiogf49gjkf0d
A few days back Simon Rattle brought but Berlin Philharmonic in Boston and blew my mind. I never was a huge fun of Simon Rattle and the music was garbage (Mahler 7). We were sitting accidently very close (Berlin extended the stage consuming the first 8 rows) and where able to see all small interactions between the musicians. God, I so love what I saw and what I heard. The Berlin Philharmonic was spectacular and I did not see for a while this aristocratism of playing and behavior. It is truly that compare to them our BSO is just a bunch of an assembly of angry semi-amateurs.   
 
Anyhow, Amy and I am going on week of May5 to Belin to hear Bruckner 8. We usually swing by at good local audio guys. Do you know how far Reinhard and Klaus installation from Berlin? I never was in Berlin. I love south Germany but never was north. We decided do not go for a long time for now as we would like in a few years to retune with kinds and then truly spend time in Germany. It will be a short 4 days trip and Kitty dive me one evening to vision some kind of good local audio aborigine if they treat her with red wine and good German cheese….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 222
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 15
Post ID: 22846
Reply to: 22842
Stefano will know!
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 187
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 16
Post ID: 22848
Reply to: 22842
Simon Rattle and Bruckner
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
A few days back Simon Rattle brought but Berlin Philharmonic in Boston and blew my mind. I never was a huge fun of Simon Rattle and the music was garbage (Mahler 7). We were sitting accidently very close (Berlin extended the stage consuming the first 8 rows) and where able to see all small interactions between the musicians. God, I so love what I saw and what I heard. The Berlin Philharmonic was spectacular and I did not see for a while this aristocratism of playing and behavior. It is truly that compare to them our BSO is just a bunch of an assembly of angry semi-amateurs.   
 


I went to see Simon Rattle and the Australian World Orchestra perform Bruckner's 8th last year.  We were not able to get good seats and as a result I was not happy with the sound on the night but after hearing it on the radio I purchased the CD recording from that very performance and I find it sublime.

https://www.abcmusic.com.au/discography/bruckner-symphony-no-8
02-04-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 107
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 17
Post ID: 24669
Reply to: 22848
One hell of experience
Hi everyone 

Guess what! Just had a visit to this system last night. Upfront, the owner - thank you Klaus again - is a very welcoming and friendly fellow. But also remarkably reasonable and decent. Total absence of any need to show off. You rather need to nail down with questions...

Recently, i had quiet few  accidental listening sessions in some folks places who own such stunning systems others keep pinning hornography about.I was lucky to experience that majority of exotic vintage and out of space look & price tags sound worse than my stock car radio, no joke!It was even better than listening to something “soooo adorable “. Why? Because you drive home with a smile in your faceSmile its all not important anymore. 

So, i got willing to travel to Klaus. Never heard Goto before.  Neither such conequent installation. Klaus doesn’t only have a decent attitude. Its reflected in his whole setup. Shiny chrome, silver cables, price tag equipment... non of them you can find here. Normal DIY cable. Normal Toshiba SS class AB amps. A DIY DAC and Preamp and Sony ES CD Player. Well the preamp looked very serious. Amongst the rest. So in total, nothing of the things you expect from a Goto owner (having prejudice against em). 

Let me tell you how this sounds. If you’re searching for the absolute tone, this system is worth a travel around the globe!Its healing you. It heals the desire for absolute audio heaven. The sick hunting for next better audiophile “xxxxx” (put any fancy vocabular there) 

At the end of the evening, i noticed i did not analyze and memorize consciously the list of specific audio preferences. Like how is the resolution, how are the heights, and how is the speed of transients... you know why? It doesnt f*in matter! Did you ever sit a stinky smoky bar in the basement, with best buddies and a hot girl around, 200 drunken sweaty people in the neon light, that foggy late night atmosphere and mr “extra fucked up tattoos all over” plays the most amazing riffs on his guitar on that small stage? If the answer is yes... ask yourself, what contributes to the quality of experience that night?Did you think of resolution and heights and transients in such a moment?Did you ever think about some audio BS when listening to live performances that you really raved about?

No. It just is way too much fun to experience this, than to think about audio BS. So this describes how this Goto system sounds.It is really like real. Like live. It has all the emotions of a live performance. It gives you 100% of what you seek in the magic of an artist performance in public environment. Though you’re still on the damn sofa. Which you totally forget! 

Still, transients, crispyness of lows, brilliance of heights, coloration, whatever - no wasnt there! No speaker sound, no artifact in any kind was present that was bugging you or that could wake a desire to tune. Just allright. What was remarkable was the ability to recreate the dynamics from litterally any recording back to stage. The total drama. Yes. But also the micro dynamics, that lay between the notes when the artist just plays a little over ambitious that night.The full scale of colors and emotions came alive. You cannot highlight the word color strong enough here! Of course dynamics on dirty blues is one thing. But playing classical music with a colour richness of emotions, so deep, you just want to listen more and more and more Smile 

No BS. No trying to review in audio manners. No praying to the big expensive stuff. Absolutely, straight honest and only “music devoted “ minded approach: this system rocks!And no matter what, WE mirrorphonic??Vox olympian living voice????Trash them all! Hell get away with that! You don’t want a piece of them, not even for free! 

Goto is no toy. Goto needs proper systems and setup. The owner himself admitted majority of Goto Owners does not install them properly. But i see, they so much deserve it! And the crazy prices... are they worth it? I dont know. Depends on your income SmileDefinitely, 30 years ago, the YEN was not as crazy instable as today. Goto was priced more reasonable than TAD today!So back those days, it was the best buy Smile

Cheers Josh 
02-04-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 107
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 18
Post ID: 24670
Reply to: 24669
One more point...
just to stress out: like live... 
Does not refer to a specific audiophile plastic three dimensional rendering only. It was so live, .... how to say... “alive” like you could throw a piece of meat to the speakers and one would believe that “it” will grab and eat it. 
It was so live, after every second song i felt desire to applause. Seriously i had to clap, had to scream and smile and say “wohouu! Damn “Klaus told me it’s not freaky, almost every guest he had was clapping Smile it’s a common thing in his place.  
Cheers Josh 
02-04-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 24671
Reply to: 24670
Thanks.
Josh, thank you for the feedback and I am glad that that you like the intalation. It is very useful to get experience with other Goto installations in order to understand what in the sound you likeed comes from Goto drivers and what come from other efforts of the system owners. Goto drivers indeed have own sound, like anything else, probably it is better to call it not sound but rather a character of presentation. I do recognize it and I do like this character in Goto but I also attribute some problems, at least how I see it, to Goto presentation. I have a vision how in my view that problems that I do see in Goto character might be rectified but this is only unsubstantiated theory.  What important is to note that I personally did not play with Goto drivers in my playback and I did not see any ambitious installation where Goto drivers were used in the way how I feel would be to do it properly from topological prospective.  I very much presume that somebody who know practicality of Goto utilization might get great result and even the specifics of a given application might override the topological sense. That is always very interesting and educational observe when it happens but it does not happens very frequently. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 107
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 20
Post ID: 24672
Reply to: 24671
Yes its good to know !
Hi Romy,
I agree its a relief to hear finally someone describing something. Because all the mysterious dust around it makes one really curious Smile And you cant hear them anywhere.So i got really "tensioned". Finally... and id like to share about it. As you wrote before, the Goto community does not share much. Thats a pitty.
I really wish i couldve written more specific about the tonality of Goto.Because this is probably what people want to know. Where specifically is the small thing they do different.And its funny, that its not so small that you can somehow concentrate on a detail and perceive nor describe it.
The most i was surprised about the dynamics. And that Goto is dynamic.With all the low wattage rating, small compression driver in bass (goto specific), and extraordinary prices ...at least I expected that this means it will sound very "delicate". Delicate like in a restaurant. Small, maybe weak, but very fine.Like a horn alike dynamic, but super non-horny sound, delicate high end audio resolution whatever.And I am very surprised that it is the opposite. That Goto rather sounds very wild and emotional and dynamic, like a PA system.If you have to put the world into a black n white box, then Goto is rather on the PA side than on the Hifi-side.On the hifi side youd have your ribbon tweeter and small polyprop 6" midrange shelf-speaker with rosewood and gold terminal.And Goto is rather on the rough side. Goto even teaches normal PA-drivers like JBL what dynamic means, they go one step further.Still they dont loose themselfs into a "noisy system". They keep balance, nothing disturbes tonal wise. 
This is at least how i (surprisingly) perceived Goto: very wild - though not colored, respectively. 
And very important how you choose your words - the way of presentation. This is a fine but important difference to "having own sound" which i perceive like coloration Smile Which really wasnt the case.So ill remember that phrase, a very good one!
Ill maybe also share some of Klaus principles he followed for achieving his sound.It wasnt many, but crucial, as he said and happily shared.

cheersJosh
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 24673
Reply to: 24672
Not really.
 martinshorn wrote:
I agree its a relief to hear finally someone describing something. Because all the mysterious dust around it makes one really curious …
Josh, I do not see any mysterious dust around Goto drivers and it is not because my blindness but become the mysterious dust not really exists. The Sound character of Goto drivers is well known and there is no mystery in there. However, anybody who play with audio seriously knows that the sound a playback make is not derive strictly from quality and character of drivers, amplifier, turntables or any other specific entity but rather form a composite overview of the system owner   about the sound he would like to accomplish and from his capacity to do it. THAT is the area what in my view the Goto owners slip most of the time. They pile up their Goto drivers with no sense of what they do and whatever thir playbacks sound they do not sound even close to what how they might sound, the recent example of that idiot from Moscow was very typical and very characteristic. I am not tailing about this Germans fellow that you visited, I am taking about a typical Goto owner and the system idea that are patronized by the Goto manufacture are emblematically horrible. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 24674
Reply to: 24672
Sound vs Sounds + more about Goto
 martinshorn wrote:
This is at least how i (surprisingly) perceived Goto: very wild - though not colored, respectively. And very important how you choose your words - the way of presentation. This is a fine but important difference to "having own sound" which i perceive like coloration. Which really wasnt the case. So ill remember that phrase, a very good one!
I would not agree with this comment as well. Let agree that "having own sound" and “colored” is not the same things. I would not even use the "having own sound" but rather "having own presentation" and ended Goto do have own presentation or own sound. There is nothing wrong in the concept of having own sound of the word Sound is understood properly. Vienna, Chicago, Leningrad and Prague orchestras, each of them have own presentation and own sound but I do not think anybody would call it “coloration”. Own sound is a character of Sound but colorations as characteristics of sounds. It is Sound vs Sounds and unfortunately in audio we seldom talk about Sound and mostly talk about sounds. There is another interesting twist in this ploy that should not be forgotten. In orchestral Sound it is perfectly fine to have colorations from Sounds in audio it is not fine. The reason is because the orchestral Sounds are created by people, they are aligned with human intentions and they have no structural consistency. The orchestral coloration at one specific musical moment might or might not be resulting with orchestral coloration during another musical event. In audio it is very different. If you driver, room, filter or amplifier has a specific coloration at a given dynamic and frequency region then this coloration will be there ALL TIME and this coloration has structural and harmonic consistency. 
 
So, returning to your Goto drivers. Like anything else in Audio they have own Sound, own sounds and own presentation. It is up to a system owner to navigate all of it and make some characters more prevailing and some less. I agree, Goto have less sounds colorations then Altecs for instance that is expected considering the magnetic force, moving mass  and presumably quality of assembly. But this is not what I find interesting in Goto. The most remarkable in my view about Goto is that they somebody render the character of the sound despite that they are not too sophisticated in pure colors department. I know that you was very impressed how colorfully Goto were but it is not my experience. Still, somehow, being colors challenged Goto somehow does not give an impression of color insufficiency. I think this is a very interesting character of Goto sound. Here is an illustration for you that I would associate with Goto sound. There is no firework of colors in the image below but no one would feel that the image has a shortage of colors.


GotoSound_WinterImage.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 107
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 23
Post ID: 24675
Reply to: 24674
Some more background on that system
Hi Romy,

Again, good words (don't want to kiss your ass Wink ). Though, I get your point and agree, one should not think that this winter picture means Goto sound cold (u never know what one could read out of it) .

What Klaus also highlighted, is the importance to him to unlimit dynamics - in order to achieve the most live-alike sound.
First of all, he noticed that Goto pleases him the most with uncompressed transient attacks more than other drivers.
Of course this means to have horns in all octaves. To also have maximum dynamics in lows.
Same importance to him was not to fold any horn, because folding costs you some dynamics (even if you fold and filter well to prevent coloration), you always loose dynamic in a fold.
Designated amps (Active) are of course non-negotiable to support this further. It took him many mocups and trash to find this final ones.

Then it was important to have all octaves with horns, made in same style. One of his secrets was, to design all channels coherent, meaning having the same character.
All drivers shall have the same flavor. For him, it is better to choose e.g. a tweeter that plays a little less good but matches the rest, rather than taking the best in each channel but not merging into one harmonic total. That's why it was important to choose all drivers Goto, and all preferably from the same series with same diaphragm material. He admits, there was one better tweeter model in the goto-portfolio, but he wouldn't like to disturb the harmony they all have together as one.
Many people make the mistake to pick the best, neglecting the collaboration. My ears could very much confirm consistency in all channels.

He also prefers filter of 4th order, and crosses in the very latest version with 90-300-1600-6600 cycles all in same filter typology.
The time alignment is being precisely "absolute" between super tweeter and tweeter (6600).
The alignment between tweeter and midrange is done "relative" to have the mouth almost aligned (prevent reflections) but still slightly offset. To merge both at the 1600 cycles in one positive non cancelation period of the wave. So the tweeter is only slightly set back, however it improved the phase response a lot.
A similar relative alignment is done between mid-bass-sub channels, where rather the mouth is aligned but you have a smooth continuous increasement of groupdelay downwards.
Considering the phase-shift of 4th order, it very well might be a smooth transition without "stairs" in the groupdelay.
He had an engineer doing the precise final alignment with measurements for timing only.

I must say, I'm trained noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems especially in the lows. And I could not hear any smeared transients. Considering that bad filters often cause 10 times worse effects than such 4 meter offset in the lows, this even sounds logical. I was surprised with this too.

Last but not least, I was very happy to have someone confirming my vague theory, the basshorn pre-chamber very much influences the sound in terms of speed and transient.
Prechamber volumes must be avoided and are not to be overcome with phase plugs. He designed the long bass horn 4 meter long from driver to mouth. Utilizing 2 x 15 inch Gotos. But the horn continues further behind the drivers to infinite small size. So that actually no pre chamber exists, just the drivers have an offset from the point-zero, as much as needed to fit the big drivers onto the horn.
Also adding a slight advantage, one driver plays with front-face in phase, the other 15 incher plays out of phase with the rear-side. This cancels out any remaining assymetric behavior of the bigger heavier non-compression drivers. My ears also confirm the superb lightness and speed and ease of precision in the whole bass. So as the consistency of flavors, this was pointed by me before he even explained the design typology behind to achieve this (!)


These are his first fundamental principles of that setup that came to my mind for now.
I must say, it is nice to see and understand, that a systems quality is not about the individual component but the harmony of combination.
So in a way, I did not listen to "goto". I did listen to Klaus' individual composition.
And people fallen in obsession with a specific brand should very much remember this.
It is what you design out of it, not which component you can afford.
I would not be surprised if Klaus had built similar quality with non-goto drivers, but same understanding of design principles.


cheers
Josh
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 24676
Reply to: 24675
Interesting, educational but in many aspects debatable in my view
 martinshorn wrote:
What Klaus also highlighted, is the importance to him to unlimit dynamics - in order to achieve the most live-alike sound. First of all, he noticed that Goto pleases him the most with uncompressed transient attacks more than other drivers. Of course this means to have horns in all octaves. To also have maximum dynamics in lows. Same importance to him was not to fold any horn, because folding costs you some dynamics (even if you fold and filter well to prevent coloration), you always loose dynamic in a fold. 
I do not know if I agree with it. There is no doubts about dynamics, here is your Klaus is correct and you are pitching to a converted. The “maximum dynamics in lows” is a complicated subject but I would not debate it. Where I disagree is that “folding costs you some dynamics” and “you always loose dynamic in a fold. Folding introduce a bunch of resonating chambers and cost audio coloration in most of the cases that do MASK OUT the transient dynamics but folding itself should not have an impact to dynamics itself.
 martinshorn wrote:
Then it was important to have all octaves with horns, made in same style. One of his secrets was, to design all channels coherent, meaning having the same character. 
All octaves with horns, made in same style? I am sorry, it is nonsense in my view. The lower you get in frequency the slower horn opening should be, I will stick with this rule. There is absolutely nothing that demands all change to be the same opening rate. For sure when the horns in the same style it does serves great optical benefit. You Klaus looks like did made the horns of the same style. Good for him and I am glad it works for him. However, there is absolutely no need to declare it as some kind of mandatory rule.
 martinshorn wrote:
All drivers shall have the same flavor. For him, it is better to choose e.g. a tweeter that plays a little less good but matches the rest, rather than taking the best in each channel but not merging into one harmonic total. That's why it was important to choose all drivers Goto, and all preferably from the same series with same diaphragm material. He admits, there was one better tweeter model in the goto-portfolio, but he wouldn't like to disturb the harmony they all have together as one. Many people make the mistake to pick the best, neglecting the collaboration. My ears could very much confirm consistency in all channels. 
Again, I do not agree with it. It is good that you do not use word synergy and the audio reviewers love to use. The section of the best driver in each individual channel does include the assurance that the drivers will be working together and should be evaluated together. Furthermore if proper evaluation is made then the selection of the “best drivers” should ONLY woks as complimentary pairs. There is absolutely no reason why the best drivers would be from a same barrel. 
 martinshorn wrote:
He also prefers filter of 4th order, and crosses in the very latest version with 90-300-1600-6600 cycles all in same filter typology. 
Good for him but in my books this is the biggest flow in his system. The problem is that he use very fragile drivers that fry like crazy, ask any Goto distributor and they will let you know that true statistics how many tweeter and MD drivers they replace diaphragms. Goto has very light and thin voice coils and they are spectacular. They are also unfortunately very fragile for current handling. This is where the “preferable” 4th order come from. In my view 4th order has too much damage, particularly with speaker level filtration.
 martinshorn wrote:
The time alignment is being precisely "absolute" between super tweeter and tweeter (6600). The alignment between tweeter and midrange is done "relative" to have the mouth almost aligned (prevent reflections) but still slightly offset. To merge both at the 1600 cycles in one positive non cancelation period of the wave. So the tweeter is only slightly set back, however it improved the phase response a lot. A similar relative alignment is done between mid-bass-sub channels, where rather the mouth is aligned but you have a smooth continuous increasement of groupdelay downwards. Considering the phase-shift of 4th order, it very well might be a smooth transition without "stairs" in the groupdelay.  
Well, I am glad that he does not present it as a mandatory requirement :-). With the size of his horns and with the way how the system is organized for sure the time alignment is very hard to of ever possible. It is what it is, we all were there. It is very much debatable if the 4th order helps the smooth transition in LF. The dreadful “stairs” are afraid but they are the amplitude problem and in my view we do not hear amplitude but phase.  With first order in LF we are much more involve room into play and we smear phase anomalies over speakers and room response. I am not insisting that I am right, I saying that it is debatable.
 martinshorn wrote:
I must say, I'm trained noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems especially in the lows. And I could not hear any smeared transients. Considering that bad filters often cause 10 times worse effects than such 4 meter offset in the lows, this even sounds logical. I was surprised with this too. 
Possible. Would you be so kind to share what subjective methodology/principle you use to recognize “noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems” in LF.
 martinshorn wrote:
Last but not least, I was very happy to have someone confirming my vague theory, the basshorn pre-chamber very much influences the sound in terms of speed and transient. Prechamber volumes must be avoided and are not to be overcome with phase plugs. He designed the long bass horn 4 meter long from driver to mouth. Utilizing 2 x 15 inch Gotos. But the horn continues further behind the drivers to infinite small size. So that actually no pre chamber exists, just the drivers have an offset from the point-zero, as much as needed to fit the big drivers onto the horn. 
Sorry, I did not get this. Did you mean the back chamber? No one use phase plugs for 15 inch drivers. If he use 2 x 15 inch drivers and no front chamber then he has a huge throat size and his horns do not use his Goto as compression drivers but have direct radiators blowing into a pipe. I am not saying that it is bad but then he has very low horns equalization and he very much might not need to use the horns but just direct radiators.
 martinshorn wrote:
Also adding a slight advantage, one driver plays with front-face in phase, the other 15 incher plays out of phase with the rear-side. This cancels out any remaining assymetric behavior of the bigger heavier non-compression drivers. My ears also confirm the superb lightness and speed and ease of precision in the whole bass. So as the consistency of flavors, this was pointed by me before he even explained the design typology behind to achieve this (!) 
Yes, the sandwich woofer is known topology and it with many mini monitors make bass to be “large”. I do not have an experience to use in horns, it does sound very interesting. Also, it make more sense about him using  2 x 15 inch drivers, so it would effectively use one 15 inch driver (thank God that he has no 30 sq inch throat!!!) and another 15 inch driver acts as active back chamber wall. Very sexy but I would not predict the result until I try. Some open baffle people use the techniques to virtually extend the baffle size, putting the drivers at 90 degree to baffle and with small space between them. They however use the drivers in-phase, if you know what I mean…
 martinshorn wrote:
I did listen to Klaus' individual composition. And people fallen in obsession with a specific brand should very much remember this. 
Yes, this is a very valid and very useful comment.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 107
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 25
Post ID: 24677
Reply to: 24676
Small misunderstandings :)
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Folding introduce a bunch of resonating chambers and cost audio coloration in most of the cases that do MASK OUT the transient dynamics but folding itself should not have an impact to dynamics itself.

Might be the point here, masking (decay) reduces transients perceptional. Lets not be too picky.I very much perceive Klaus as an intuitive designer, not worrying about the mathematical explanation in the first place.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

All octaves with horns, made in same style? I am sorry, it is nonsense in my view. The lower you get in frequency the slower horn opening should be, I will stick with this rule. There is absolutely nothing that demands all change to be the same opening rate. For sure when the horns in the same style it does serves great optical benefit. You Klaus looks like did made the horns of the same style. Good for him and I am glad it works for him. However, there is absolutely no need to declare it as some kind of mandatory rule.

This is not to be understood as a visual feature. He very much refers to the tractrix function on one hand. And also about using round shapes.As you see in the lowest horn it definitely compromises some mouth size actually, he admits that. So it is a slower opening horn there, but basically due to size limitations.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Again, I do not agree with it. It is good that you do not use word synergy and the audio reviewers love to use. The section of the best driver in each individual channel does include the assurance that the drivers will be working together and should be evaluated together. Furthermore if proper evaluation is made then the selection of the “best drivers” should ONLY woks as complimentary pairs. There is absolutely no reason why the best drivers would be from a same barrel. 

In general, im talking out of memory, plus translation, free style. So be careful with taking my single words too serious. I wont repeat all this in front of a judge Wink Touchy thing, i hope i quote the most correctly to get "the rough idea" of what he meant.So, he definitely put a high priority on a collaboration harmony. And it is very obvious to hear that everything plays together and nothing stands out in its performance. For me, picking best in each job, was (likely for most people too) the standard. Till i got inspired here, to not only select for example a tweeter by its tweeting performance but also evaluate more how it would play with the rest. One tweeter that you may like, could not necessarily be the best in your horn system. And once disqualified in setup A, still it could be "the tweeter" in your totally different setup B some years later. Honestly, listening to the whole harmony of that composition, I feel this is a very inspiring thought!And not slightly, i think this was maybe the number 1 of his most important design philosophies!
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Good for him but in my books this is the biggest flow in his system. The problem is that he use very fragile drivers that fry like crazy, ask any Goto distributor and they will let you know that true statistics how many tweeter and MD drivers they replace diaphragms. Goto has very light and thin voice coils and they are spectacular. They are also unfortunately very fragile for current handling. This is where the “preferable” 4th order come from. In my view 4th order has too much damage, particularly with speaker level filtration.

Sure the filter steepness and XO point have to be seen together. In my view, only the 90 cycles XO on the lowest comp. driver was questionable.However, we listened very loud and it remained absolutely confident and laid back. So it seems to work well enough.We couldve turned it up another 10dB, but that wouldve been definately no joy for more than a minute.He said, in earlier days that compression driver even ran down to 20 cycles in a bigger horn, before the 15 inchers existed.So even that worked. But there it was definately stressed, limited and upper bass coloured by too big horn.
 
 Romy the Cat wrote:

...in my view we do not hear amplitude but phase.  With first order in LF we are much more involve room into play and we smear phase anomalies over speakers and room response. I am not insisting that I am right, I saying that it is debatable......
Possible. Would you be so kind to share what subjective methodology/principle you use to recognize “noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems” in LF.

Well there i have the opposite opinion Smile We do hear amplitude, not phase. We actually even hear the transient shape in amplitude terms, rather than the single tones amplitude. Imho our ear is not designed to be phase sensitive, unless you so excessively deform phase till it re-shapes the transients amplitude.I hear it the same way. Having made experiments to train my ear to phase artefacts without touching the amplitude i have my statement:Phase does not change tonality nor stage or room projection. Phase exclusively influences transient perception. In the heights, it can create metallic sharpness, while in lows smears initially crisp drum hits from "TAM" sound into a "T...ammmmmmm" (bouncy, rolling, fat, undefined).
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Sorry, I did not get this. Did you mean the back chamber? No one use phase plugs for 15 inch drivers. 

Well, i did Smile I perceived a phase-alike artefact of slow softness when the pre-chamber is too big (>5 liters... a 15 inch cone already got 8 liter volume of air within its diaphragm surface to the mounting frame...)A phase plug eliminates that prechamber "air bag" that softens the transient attack. But the phase plug also increases compression, made it sound a little stressed. So i did not know how to solve this.Klaus idea is great here and it sonically combines the best - let me show it via picture otherwise one cannot imagine:

This also explains the isobaric setup of both drivers.They use a conventional closed rear cabine. And radiate properly loaded into the horn.
cheersJosh
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