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In the Forum: Playback Listening
In the Thread: Basic guide to advanced audio
Post Subject: Monday night :-)Posted by haralanov on: 8/1/2011
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 Romy the Cat wrote:
Yes, I heard that at high amplitude sound theoretically propagates faster, so at different temperature

These are totally different things. At higher temperature the sound really changes its speed, but its waveform remains unaffected.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I do not know. In the Wolfgang Klippel illustration the waves that are coming from compression driver are some kind of perfect waves

Thank God he chose idealized kind of sound wave coming out of that compression driver to illustrate what happens as simply as possible. I don’t even want to see what the waveform will look like if he feed a real sinusoidal signal to a real compression driver :-)
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The deformation of the waves in a compression driver and in the phase plug is order of magnitude higher than anything that might take place in the horn.

I do agree! Now imagine what will happen after the horn amplify this deformed by the phase plug signal, which is then further steepened by the horn itself.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
the compression driver that do 111dB sensitively sound very bad. The drivers with moderate compression and with moderate acoustic pressure are way more "human" in my estimation.

So do we have to conclude that the less the compression – the better the sound? ;-))) May be that’s the reason I find the sound of the drivers having zero compression much more natural and life-like.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I disagree with Paul definition of "trombone dynamics" and I disagree with idea of contrived dynamics. Even the most dynamic playback the one can imagine no where even close to the dynamics that need to be accomplished. Even with the best compression drivers we are nowhere near the dynamics of live sound.

Yes, the live sound is always way more dynamic than even the most dynamic system in existence today. I suppose by using the term “trombone dynamics” Paul wanted to say “pushed with force dynamics”. That kind of dynamic behavior is very different in comparison to the dynamics of the real live Sound, because it is formed by a different mechanism. Of course it is better to have as much dynamics as possible, but only if these dynamics are accepted by the brain as natural. Yes, the brain could be very easily fooled, but how could one explain the fact that I can always recognize I’m listening a horn loaded compression driver without seeing what I’m listening to?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I have seen the properly made direct radiators that had dynamics greater then horns and I have seen horns that were absolutely dead.

So do I. Ironically, but I have never heard a horn that beats my current 12” widerange direct radiator in context of dynamics department. I will trash it in the moment when somebody demonstrate me better sounding horn – in context of dynamics, transient response, tone, scale, transparency,delicacyand so on.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I think the Haralanov/ Kondo attempts to find a justification of alternation of musical messages and the affect to original meaning of the musical messages coming from loudspeaker topology is a bit too marketing-like.

I’m not looking for a justification of alternation of musical messages and the affect to original meaning of the musical messages coming from horn topology – I only mentioned that all of the horns I have ever heard do affect the musical messages, making them too horny every single time. I will be glad somebody to demonstrate me proper horn implementation (because everybody knows most of the horn implementations sound like crap) that is free from those artifacts.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I think it is not topology that deforms musical messages but an implementation of a given topology.

Yes, you are correct. But then show me a horn made of material that resembles the properties of any part of the human body – to have the softness and to feel fleshy from the inside. The sound signature of that imaginary horn will be absolutely different in comparison to a horn made of hard synthetic material, MDF for example.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The musical messages are being corrupted not by loudspeakers but by the people who makes loudspeakers and teacher loudspeakers to sound.

Yes, that is true. But let’s imagine you know a guy who is immune from making audio mistakes. Let pretend he is going to put his maximal efforts in achieving the best sound he is capable to achieve by different topologies. I think his result will be very different when he deals with horns, conventional direct radiators and electrostatic speakers, simply because every single topology has some limitations/disadvantages that cannot be cured (without making another kind of compromises) no matter how talented that guy is.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I would like to have compression drivers/ horn combo with predictable tonal characteristics but do not forget that in the world of comprehension drivers we deal with EXISTING drivers.

So why don’t you try to make your own compression driver according to your own ultimate requirements?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is much easier to deal with direct radiator as it is easy to make your own driver. Suspend any material with VC between magnets and you have a driver.

Hahahhaha! I wish the things were as simple as you suppose they are :-))) Now I understand why manufacturers produce so crappy sounding direct radiators – they just think it is enough to “suspend any material with VC between magnets and you have a driver” :-)))))))
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The radiation surface from horn is also much larger and horns produce more "clouds" of sound then the "source of sound".

I think you wanted to say reflection surface, not radiation surface, right? Radiation surface is the surface that is directly attached to the vibration creating element (the voice coil). So the radiation surface of the horns using compression drivers is equal to the surface of the dome of that compression driver. All the rest is reflecting surface.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
And why do you feel that the affecting of the musical message is the subject of ONLY topology of acoustic system.

Wait a minute! I have NEVER said the magnitude of affection to musical messages is a subject ONLY to a given topology of acoustic system. In reality it is affected by absolute everything, even by the color of your room décor.

Best regards,
Haralanov
 

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