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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  414359  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  388487  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  353663  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  80455  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  24326  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  69757  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  23888  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  45688  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  When I see the crap like this thing…...  Analog Playback Forum     13  98084  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  11755  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  9338  10-27-2010
01-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 101
Post ID: 18897
Reply to: 18895
Squeeze the drop
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ArmAlex wrote:
Stitch wrote:Or let's go to the real world, there are endless high powered cars outside. 99,5% of their owners aren't able to handle them.Yes you are right, the problem is almost nowhere has been left to use a performance car even if you have the ability, 99.95% of the road are restricted. But in audio you can squeeze every drop of equipment's ability.Best regardsArmen
   

Yes, that is true. You can squeeze the last drop out....but then you have to want that (independent from your financial ability). And then you need brain. And knowledge. And that is exactly Romy's Passion to write about :-)
Anyway, between Idiot and Idiot are differences. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes you can escape, sometimes you ask God (or whoever) why he sent you such a guy and why do you talk with him ....
In the 90's I was a Student, no money, just at the beginning of that audiophile journey...I was at a Top Dealers Place when I listened to a discussion about super expensive Transparent cables to an older married couple. It was a long discussion, about a few thousand bucks and they bought it finally. Later I was standing in front of an extremely expensive Stereo System and I asked the shop owner:Who buys that (I didn't ask for sound quality) and his answer was fast and honest: Those who buy that instead of the third car or another sailing boat.
I think, nothing changed.


Kind Regards
Stitch
01-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 102
Post ID: 18898
Reply to: 18894
The American swallowing?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Stitch wrote:

1. No real world sorrows
2. Next toy from the Adult Toy Store
3. Satisfaction for the Ego for whatever reasons
In a way you find all answers in your Article of "Foolishness of analog People" ....
The big Seikis were never common in USA, you and a few others know the old ones and what they can do. The AFO is such a unit made in 2012.In a way it is the first real serious Design Solution I saw in the last 10 years. When someone sees it now the first time and he is not stupid, he will detect sooner or later, that there is something serious done. I can't say how good it performs in reality, because the old 8000II with the Vacuum is inferior to a - additional - dampened Platter 8000. But I can imagine they solved it with a new dampened Platter. Would be logical, that was the only weak point of the 8000II.
I listened multiple times to Continuum Player and imo, there is a lot of brain inside. Unfortunately it is like a race car which needs care and service. I had a few Situations when the Continuum got defect. They need replacement parts what someone in Australia told me. Anyway, they sold more units than I thought. There is a market for expensive Turntables. When they are good sounding AND reliable, well ...

Or let's go to the real world, there are endless high powered cars outside. 99,5% of their owners aren't able to handle them. Even in Germany the majority pushes the pedal only a few times when the highway is empty and straight on. And no one cares, some book driving lessons, but the majority enjoys the simple ownership. That's the way it is ...

Stitch, I do not know. I did not give too much attention to this new Air Force One TT. It looks to me as it is essentially the Micro 8000 only with 21 century ergonomic. Micros were TT from 70s, look at the appearance of cars from 70s and look at the appearance the cars of today.  The bells and whistles that they build up around the platter are very convenient and appealing in my view. They use the same 36kG platter as Micro use; I am sure with the same glass/air suspension. I do not know if they made the stator with the same crazy heavy material as Micro was or they went for heavy brand of aluminum. I also do not know what difference it would make. I am not wild that they use some kind of “resonating” platform instead air. I like air decupling under TT.

I did not know that Continuum might got broken. The notion that 100K TT might be broken is ridicules is me.  There is absolutely nothing that TT does that shall send it out of service and if anything does get broken itself then it is solely the design flow. BTW, the very first private demo with Continuum that I attended the TT was not able to martin speed. The Continuum people did not actual hears it and it was VERY laughable. Thos people know or care about music as much as I know about subatomic physics…

The story that is unfolding with post-Seikis in USA is kind of ugly. The Continuum sold more units than you thought because the idiot Framer blew the Continuum horn. Well, ne is not necessary an idiot – his job title to be idiot but the army of brainless audio cretins will blindly follow whatever bone he throw to them and say “fetch”. BTW, the very same story is unfolding now with Air Force One and used to unfold with Micro Seiki.

In begin of 90s I believe someone publish something about Micro Seiki 1500FVG. It was a very good TT and it was hands and shoulders above whatever crap was sold in US in that time. The review neutral but as I was told it was made a deliberate decision to not let heavy Japanese TT to enter the US market. So, the US duckling did not see any large Micros and the ground was set to let light plastic German TT to dominate US marketing.

It look like now the new US distributor run his new TT across the all casual suspects of the US marketing food chain. He stuffs the TT across 3-4 “big names”, trying to solicit them to get aboard. As they do suspect the price go up as those asshole pay shit and somebody need to endure the cost and the destitution/dealer appetite. The result will be as usually is not an objective evaluation of TT but embracing a new spin campaign of the products. For the next 3-5 years the US rep will make good money, buy a boat and in a few years the Air Force One will be demoted if they do not do more “white trash” targeted models. This is not about TT but about the primitive food chain in audio industry. I will not be surprised if even in years it will not be know (publicly) if Air Force One has any sonic advantages or disadvantages over another best TT of the past and none of them were used by the audio pimps.

It was reported to me privately that the Air Force One did fine at CES 2013 but as uselessly it was just a play of a TT and absolutely no one would know how much in that sound was TT vs. anything else. Also, Wilson is not the acoustic system within the context of which one might look at the performance of TT.  BUT once again, the show condition is not the place to find sound but an opportunity for manufacturers to suck industry dicks. The case to point:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/64/640297.html

It is good that the Japanese guy who does Air Force One is not plugged into our “American swallowing” and he might maintain some independence and integrity.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 103
Post ID: 18906
Reply to: 18898
Squeezing the Drop Part II
fiogf49gjkf0d
Got an interesting message from someone who got an invitation to listen to a ClearAudio Statement Turntable ($165.000,--). He was interested to buy it from the owner. He brought a Sutherland Timeline for Speed Test and it was a Disaster. Totally out of right speed and no matter what both tried for hours, no way to adjust the Turntable for proper speed (33⅓) ...(May I add that my old Micro with the Timeline holds the speed that I can hammer a nail into the wall and the laser always get it right, checked it yesterday again after getting the mail).
To say it very mildly, the owner was very unhappy. But after some days he thinks that the Timeline is crap :-)  
[The only way to survive the days with that "Statement"]  
Anyway, no deal.
And the next what amazed my writer, this expensive State-Of-The-Art Turntable is extremely sensitive to all kind of vibrations. He wrote, when music was playing and he walked around in the room, he was able to hear the footsteps through the speakers (Walking in the area of the Rack).
That is a product which is recommended from Mags all over the Planet, Stereophile Class A and so on :-)
Sometimes I ask myself, what would happen when a Turntable can do everything right and is only $10.000,--
I guess, I know the answer

Clearturn-450.jpg



Kind Regards
Stitch
01-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 450
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 104
Post ID: 18907
Reply to: 18897
Das Statussymbol
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
and I asked the shop owner:Who buys that (I didn't ask for sound quality) and his answer was fast and honest: Those who buy that instead of the third car or another sailing boat.
I think, nothing changed.


In the same 90's I remember reading an interview with someone from the Burmester, maybe some Burmester himself. To a question: Who is your biggest competitor? he answered in his infinite arrogance: Harley Davidson. For the very same reason as quoted above.
Well Harley Davidson is still around and Burmester? I have no idea, haven't heard about them for the past 15yrs.
You see the point: there is also a darker scenario. What if all those morons do start buying third cars and second boat instead of audio?
Will we be left with  ipods or dinosaur gear from the past? Or the industry will undergo a very deep& painful catharsis? No idea...



Cheers,
Jarek
01-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 105
Post ID: 18935
Reply to: 18893
What you seem to miss Romy ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
is that the operating word is "Turntable Collection". The Air Force One (hate the name!) is the culmination of the great Micro Seiki's coming full circle and once again starting a new chapter in high end analog reproduction, this completes my MS COLLECTION. 
"What kind sense of actions audio people have when they buy audio just because they want to add it to own collection of pointless glitter?"

2nd, as a dealer this Air Force One will serve as a demo unit for my clients. I realize that you wet yourself every time you hear obama talk about his socialist utopia but this comment and your post is ridiculous and sorry to say it only proves how far up hussein's ass you've gone!
david
01-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 106
Post ID: 18936
Reply to: 18935
A Glenn Beck syndrome?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 dkarmeli wrote:
is that the operating word is "Turntable Collection". The Air Force One (hate the name!) is the culmination of the great Micro Seiki's coming full circle and once again starting a new chapter in high end analog reproduction, this completes my MS COLLECTION. 

That is exactly what I oppose to: treating audio as a pointless collection or non-animated subjects. For sure you, as well as anybody else, are perfectly in your right to collect whatever they want but it has absolutely nothing to do with audio I practice or with audio I am interested. I wonder how many people out there would even buy a new TT as a tool that produce new sound for them vs. the people who buy a TT juts because ‘Why not?”. If you are racing car driver then your chose of one over another car is dictated by your demand to do some kind of specific driving. Here I am – the guy who went shopping for my next buy of “Formula 1” and I chose my next car according the call color, in order to have better coordination of colors in my garage….

Regardless the rest of your psychotic semi-political blabbering – I have no idea how it relates to anything.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 107
Post ID: 18937
Reply to: 18936
I realize that you don't get it...
fiogf49gjkf0d
No matter, I still love you Pussy.
03-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 108
Post ID: 19094
Reply to: 18937
Air Force One
fiogf49gjkf0d
Wasn't sure where to put this but has to be seen to be believed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9tCRh41OM

I think this is at a show in Bangkok. I'm amazed the exhibitors allowed it to happen. That Ikeda cartridge isn't really designed for this kind of use.
03-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 109
Post ID: 19095
Reply to: 19094
Stong motor/s
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, in a way it is belong here. This is just an indication of the type of the people who use high-end audio toys. It is not about damage of the Ikeda cartridge, this is less relevant subject. What I feel is relevant is the level at which they find use TT stimulating. I had a few demons like this from some speakers manufacturers who did demonstrated to me not sound but some kind of irrelevant sonic tricks and it was very funny to see the level of excitement they got from those stupid and irrelevant sonic tricks.

Another aspect.  I do not believe that the person who does those tricks with TT on the video is some kind of guest in the room. It was the room owner, dealer, rep or manufacture. So, this is a good depicture of the people who are dealers, reps or manufactures in high-end audio.
About TT. What surprised me is now fast the TT recovers speed after the patter was touched. I was under impression that this type of TT have very little torch on motors and the platter just very mildly pushed. IT looks like it is not the case with Air Force One and it’s motor/s are stong.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 110
Post ID: 19096
Reply to: 19095
TW Akustik
fiogf49gjkf0d
Same person, same show, TW turntable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhEVL9rnwtQ

If he is stopping the platter I'd have guessed that the belt must be slipping on the motor pulley while it is stalled. These turntables don't appear to be using 'slip' mats.
04-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 111
Post ID: 20747
Reply to: 18732
Articles about the new Air Force One
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue72/airforce_one.htm
http://highfidelity.pl/@main-456&lang=en


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 112
Post ID: 20748
Reply to: 20747
3 Tries, Still Can't Read It...
fiogf49gjkf0d
This actually LOOKS like a well-thought-out TT. Too bad the "review" is so over-awed/fawning. I can hardly read it. My suspicions rise uncontrollably and cloud my thinking as the cost-is-no-consideration "solutions" are meticulously unloaded onto the pages. Still, when I filter through the drivel, it appears that this may be a rare case where overbuilding, in and of itself, does not spoil performance. Looking at past "state-of-the-art" TTs, I think there are better materials for platters than steel (eg, lead, graphite, etc.), but I did not gather the full range of options for this TT. Also, while my own TT effortlessly employs a small air pump (for vacuum hold down), I am always wary of the complexity, expense, and potential problems with compressed air systems for TTs, elaborate or otherwise, and I can't help but wonder if it would ultimately cost less and be easier to use if they simply made/used a suitable conventional bearing. Lastly (for now), I am stuck on the idea that the drive belt should be the "minimum" that will suffice to drive the platter, in terms of length, width, thickness and grab. Hard to tell by just looking how this belt behaves; just saying...

Paul S
05-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 113
Post ID: 20749
Reply to: 20748
Try it first!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
This actually LOOKS like a well-thought-out TT. Too bad the "review" is so over-awed/fawning. I can hardly read it. My suspicions rise uncontrollably and cloud my thinking as the cost-is-no-consideration "solutions" are meticulously unloaded onto the pages. Still, when I filter through the drivel, it appears that this may be a rare case where overbuilding, in and of itself, does not spoil performance. Looking at past "state-of-the-art" TTs, I think there are better materials for platters than steel (eg, lead, graphite, etc.), but I did not gather the full range of options for this TT. Also, while my own TT effortlessly employs a small air pump (for vacuum hold down), I am always wary of the complexity, expense, and potential problems with compressed air systems for TTs, elaborate or otherwise, and I can't help but wonder if it would ultimately cost less and be easier to use if they simply made/used a suitable conventional bearing. Lastly (for now), I am stuck on the idea that the drive belt should be the "minimum" that will suffice to drive the platter, in terms of length, width, thickness and grab. Hard to tell by just looking how this belt behaves; just saying...

Paul S

I highly recommend that you actually listen and spend time with this turntable or one of the higher end Micros like the SX-8000, mk2 and SZ-1 prior to forming so many wrong assumptions!
david


05-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 114
Post ID: 20750
Reply to: 20749
Quashing Speculation
fiogf49gjkf0d
David, of course the item under discussion would not exist at all unless someone "saw" it before he or she built it...

Setting that aside for now, Lord knows I try to Keep It Real when sharing thoughts about hi-fi. With this goal in mind, will you please list the "many wrong assumptions" I've committed to in my previous post?


Best regards,
Paul S
05-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 115
Post ID: 20751
Reply to: 20750
Assumptions...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
David, of course the item under discussion would not exist at all unless someone "saw" it before he or she built it...

Setting that aside for now, Lord knows I try to Keep It Real when sharing thoughts about hi-fi. With this goal in mind, will you please list the "many wrong assumptions" I've committed to in my previous post?


Best regards,
Paul S

Hi Paul,
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match or offend anyone. From where I'm sitting your assumptions start with the phrase over built, this is incorrect, MS and AF1 are quality built. I''m not sure what you're referencing as past SOTA tables, certainly the MS tts were at the top of any list and they all came with stainless steel platters as did the money no object American Sound turntable. So your assumption that SOTA tables were all made from other materials is not quite true. The beauty of the air bearing is that there's so little to it and manufacturing cost is less than a traditional high end bearing of equal sonic quality and capability of friction free rotation of a platter of such mass. MS and AF1 air bearings are maintenance free.
Solid belt used with AF1 is the same as previously supplied Micro SF-1. This belt has no humps and doesn't stretch or slip, can't have anything more neutral than this. I'm told that Basis also make a solid belt that's supposed to be just as good, they also have a comprehensive white paper on sonic benefits of this type of belt.
david
05-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 116
Post ID: 20752
Reply to: 20751
By the Numbers
fiogf49gjkf0d
David, it looks like your "many" has dwindled to 2 citations, namely "overbuilt" standing alone, and "SOTA tables were all made from other materials". IMO, the table under discussion has been, if nothing else, taken way past the point(s) of function and well into the realm of purely aesthetic considerations (and we all know why). In any case, your idea that it is not "overbuilt" is no less a simple statement of "opinion" and/or (pace) "assumption". As for my remarks on the choice of platter materials, it appears that you've not only paraphrased (rather than quoted) but also missed the point that I am speculating, based on what I have heard. Also, please note that I put the term "state of the art" in quotes. In case this puzzles, I meant thereby to isolate the term and leave it twisting in the swirling winds of opinion, where it belongs. I hope this brings that (actual) remark into better focus.

You may already know that every once in a while, someone pops up here to "defend" a beloved marque or some component or idea that the defender has a personal interest/investment in. I can tell you that I have no significant personal interest in any TT or TT company at all, so any speculation on my part is just that, and nothing more. Meanwhile, don't forget that the Theory of Special Relativity was pretty much pure speculation when it was first published. Of course, this is not an attempt to put my remarks on par with that document, only to mention that speculation has an established, historical place in the advancement of knowledge.

To close, I have had a couple of interesting discussions with AJ Conti. However, the proof is ever in the pudding (and the Devil is in the Details).

Best regards,
Paul S
05-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 117
Post ID: 20753
Reply to: 20752
Please read my post again.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
David, it looks like your "many" has dwindled to 2 citations, namely "overbuilt" standing alone, and "SOTA tables were all made from other materials". IMO, the table under discussion has been, if nothing else, taken way past the point(s) of function and well into the realm of purely aesthetic considerations (and we all know why). In any case, your idea that it is not "overbuilt" is no less a simple statement of "opinion" and or (pace) "assumption".
 
I addressed everything you wrote, i.e. every point in your initial post, including your cost assumption of AF1 air bearing vs traditional bearings.
My statement of built right vs over built isn't a personal opinion its a fact. Please point to what you see an unnecessary design element that doesn't enhance the quality of the sound and this product. Aesthetics of the table are also part of its engineering, wether you like its looks or not doesn't make it over built.
 Paul S wrote:
As for my remarks on the choice of platter materials, it appears that you've not only paraphrased (rather than quoted) but also missed the point that I am speculating, based on what I have heard. Also, please note that I put the term "state of the art" in quotes. In case this puzzles, I meant thereby to isolate the term and leave it twisting in the swirling winds of opinion, where it belongs. I hope this brings that (actual) remark into better focus.

"I think there are better materials for platters than steel (eg, lead, graphite, etc.)" What am I paraphrasing?

 Paul S wrote:
You may already know that every once in a while, someone pops up here to "defend" a beloved marque or some component or idea that the defender has a personal interest/investment in. I can tell you that I have no significant personal interest in any TT or TT company at all, so any speculation on my part is just that, and nothing more. Meanwhile, don't forget that the Theory of Special Relativity was pretty much pure speculation when it was first published. Of course, this is not an attempt to put my remarks on par with that document, only to mention that speculation has an established, historical place in the advancement of knowledge.

Nothing to do with me, I might have a handful of other posts on this site. I don't have a horse in this race, don't sell the AF1 nor any other table. The opposite of what you say also true. Every so often someone attacks a product simply because of a rave review without knowing about it!
david

05-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 118
Post ID: 20755
Reply to: 20753
Questions vs Assumptions (or Attacks)
fiogf49gjkf0d
No "cost assumption" was made or posited about bearings, rather the remark was framed as a question, just wondering, likewise the very general remarks about belts (along with the closing disclaimer). If the air system is cheap, effective and reliable, you can't beat that, IMO, but look no further than, say, Walker for alternate takes. However, I did /do admit that I am generally suspicious of gigantic, complicated, super-expensive hi-fi gear in general, on the face of it, notwithstanding that this one appears to address the salient "issues" pretty squarely (for a change...), and I admit that I start out with this bias. To me, "built right" might mean it gets the job done, or it might simply mean "well put together". Where one stops on either count would tell a lot. I tend to favor a least approach, whatever that means, at least in theory, but if more isn't too much, it might still be enough.

My platter tests over the years consisted of listening with stethoscopes and using various "tools" to incite noise with a cartridge in play. Likely, more is more in the case of steel platters; many ring like bells; the same with aluminum. Anyway, you actually did quote me this time, vs "...your assumption that SOTA tables were all made from other materials..." before.

Point well taken about aesthetics in general, although I remain unsure whether this represents a least approach, ala Ockham's Razor. In other words, it isn't just a matter of "like" or "don't like" with respect to the aesthetics in my case but an open consideration, form vs. function vs cost vs price.

Best regards,
Paul S
05-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 119
Post ID: 20756
Reply to: 20755
Questions vs Assumptions (or Attacks)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
No "cost assumption" was made or posited about bearings, rather the remark was framed as a question, just wondering, likewise the very general remarks about belts (along with the closing disclaimer). If the air system is cheap, effective and reliable, you can't beat that, IMO, but look no further than, say, Walker for alternate takes. However, I did /do admit that I am generally suspicious of gigantic, complicated, super-expensive hi-fi gear in general, on the face of it, notwithstanding that this one appears to address the salient "issues" pretty squarely (for a change...), and I admit that I start out with this bias. To me, "built right" might mean it gets the job done, or it might simply mean "well put together". Where one stops on either count would tell a lot. I tend to favor a least approach, whatever that means, at least in theory, but if more isn't too much, it might still be enough.

My platter tests over the years consisted of listening with stethoscopes and using various "tools" to incite noise with a cartridge in play. Likely, more is more in the case of steel platters; many ring like bells; the same with aluminum. Anyway, you actually did quote me this time, vs "...your assumption that SOTA tables were all made from other materials..." before.

Point well taken about aesthetics in general, although I remain unsure whether this represents a least approach, ala Ockham's Razor. In other words, it isn't just a matter of "like" or "don't like" with respect to the aesthetics in my case but an open consideration, form vs. function vs cost vs price.

Best regards,
Paul S

The AF1 isn't anything like the Continuum tables and I can see where you're coming from regarding over engineering in their case. The review was spot on and the TechDas deserves all the superlatives bestowed upon it. In reality the AF1 like the Micro Seikis is really a floating platter and not a true air bearing, its almost as simple as it gets. As far as the price goes blame it on the weak dollar and costs of distribution, if we go by the Japanese retail pricing its actually one of the best bargains of high end audio.
I don't know what your scoping told you or which tables you tried, AF1 platter with its poron material is inert. 
In theory your least approach makes sense and I'm all for a minimalist approach but in practice it all depends on the design goals and the quality of the design engineer. You can't have a more "least approach" than a Rega and its a veritable piece of shit. Ockham's Razor cuts both ways, he also states " Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better." 
david
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 120
Post ID: 20757
Reply to: 20756
Ockham's Ultimate TT
fiogf49gjkf0d
Of course the idea of "minimal" needs context and a priori determinants, like any idea at all, and I don't see that the Regas belong in this particular discussion, at least at this particular point. OTOH, the Continuum is another good illustration of a techno tail wagging a functional dog, which , IMO, is the first thing one ought to wonder about when presented with something like the AF1. You say the AF1 deserves all the praise, and it's a good value in Yen, so I ass-u-me you've heard it several times, in several systems, and under a range of conditions, in order to isolate its characteristics, including tests on the platter, which you've called "inert". But another aspect of my post was triggered by the "review" itself, which I found to reflect an overawed ingenuousness that goes beyond awarding merit and smacks of the unctuous fawning that plagues the genre, regardless of actual merit in terms of application. I realize that this type of "review" typically has the opposite of the intended effect on me, mea culpa, so please pardon my barely restrained sarcasm on this score, and sorry it stains my perception of the product, despite I know better than to be influenced like this, one way or the other.

Not to throw a wrench or spill oil on the causeway, but another (typical) big issue with the giant, complex gear is that one seldom gets a chance to hear it at its best, whatever that may be, for so many reasons that their consideration would spawn several sub-threads were we to get into it [yet again]. Actually, we have already widely discussed these issues at GSC, and the threads are cataloged here, if you care to look.

Best regards,
Paul S
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dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 121
Post ID: 20758
Reply to: 20757
Ockham's Ultimate TT
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Of course the idea of "minimal" needs context and a priori determinants, like any idea at all, and I don't see that the Regas belong in this particular discussion, at least at this particular point. OTOH, the Continuum is another good illustration of a techno tail wagging a functional dog, which , IMO, is the first thing one ought to wonder about when presented with something like the AF1. You say the AF1 deserves all the praise, and it's a good value in Yen, so I ass-u-me you've heard it several times, in several systems, and under a range of conditions, in order to isolate its characteristics, including tests on the platter, which you've called "inert". But another aspect of my post was triggered by the "review" itself, which I found to reflect an overawed ingenuousness that goes beyond awarding merit and smacks of the unctuous fawning that plagues the genre, regardless of actual merit in terms of application. I realize that this type of "review" typically has the opposite of the intended effect on me, mea culpa, so please pardon my barely restrained sarcasm on this score, and sorry it stains my perception of the product, despite I know better than to be influenced like this, one way or the other.

Not to throw a wrench or spill oil on the causeway, but another (typical) big issue with the giant, complex gear is that one seldom gets a chance to hear it at its best, whatever that may be, for so many reasons that their consideration would spawn several sub-threads were we to get into it [yet again]. Actually, we have already widely discussed these issues at GSC, and the threads are cataloged here, if you care to look.

Best regards,
Paul S

I have an AF1, look at the attachment in previous post. 
There's nothing complex about this table, actually the opposite is true. Unlike the Continuum the AF1 comes from a long pedigree of fine established tables. Its an evolution of the Micro Seiki SZ-1t. I understand your justified bias regarding reviews, but this is one of those rare cases where the reviewer does know what he's talking about.
david
PS. Ockham's Ultimate TT would be the The American Sound.
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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 122
Post ID: 20759
Reply to: 20758
Dealer Promotion on Audio Forums
fiogf49gjkf0d
 dkarmeli wrote:
I have an AF1. I understand your justified bias regarding reviews, but this is one of those rare cases where the reviewer does know what he's talking about.
David, I hope you understand Paul's recalcitrance. We've all been around the block more than a few times. When a dealer such as yourself comes on an audio site and promotes a product he sells, you tend to take that with a grain of salt...

Adrian
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dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 123
Post ID: 20760
Reply to: 20759
Dealer Promotion on Audio Forums
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
 dkarmeli wrote:
I have an AF1. I understand your justified bias regarding reviews, but this is one of those rare cases where the reviewer does know what he's talking about.
David, I hope you understand Paul's recalcitrance. We've all been around the block more than a few times. When a dealer such as yourself comes on an audio site and promotes a product he sells, you tend to take that with a grain of salt...

Adrian

Adrian,
As I mentioned above I'm not a TechDas dealer nor do I sell any other tables at this time. I have no affiliation, business or personal relationship with Bob Graham, the importer or TechDas. You rarely see me posting on this site, my comments are based on hands on experience with AF1 and other ultra high end tables, no ulterior motive besides sharing. It would be a shame for people to pass on this wonderful table because of biased speculation. 
david
05-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 124
Post ID: 20761
Reply to: 20760
Vesting/Vested
fiogf49gjkf0d
David, I did take your initial post in this thread as an "owner post". Like I said, (and I hope I can leave it at that), it "LOOKS" like a nice TT, all right; but there are also the usual reasons to wonder if it might be a well-packaged Robb Report thing. I'm sure you understand without my listing the indicators.

Best regards,
Paul S
05-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dkarmeli
Posts 27
Joined on 01-25-2013

Post #: 125
Post ID: 20762
Reply to: 20761
Vesting/Vested
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
David, I did take your initial post in this thread as an "owner post". Like I said, (and I hope I can leave it at that), it "LOOKS" like a nice TT, all right; but there are also the usual reasons to wonder if it might be a well-packaged Robb Report thing. I'm sure you understand without my listing the indicators.

Best regards,
Paul S

Whatever!
david
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