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10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 51
Post ID: 25635
Reply to: 25634
Jackpot!
Thanks, Robin! I will get right on this! Auf Englisch haben wir gar nichts an dieses!

Best regards,
Paul S
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 308
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 52
Post ID: 25636
Reply to: 25635
Strauss is very special to me (and a lot of others)
If we consider the time that Strauss was musically active, he offers so much connection to romantic history and brought it into the 20th century. The poet Friedrich Rückert spanned the century before him from the late baroque/early classic to the romantic era. These works are very special.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-15-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 53
Post ID: 25638
Reply to: 25636
Ignore it
This topic is my corner , it is about my ideas , my setup , my news and my story. I write here because i do not want create many new topics. I think it is better to write only here.There is No need to read my topic If you think my topic is moronic or useless or similar to audiogon. Romy is site administrator and he can delete this topic if he think it is useless. ArmAlex you are my close friend i do not like attack you but i just want ask you one question, how is it possible you love impressive sound of gryphon speaker , push pull EAR amplifier ,Acoustic Revive (all are 100% recommended by stereophile ) and you read goodsoundclub and defend romy ideas?If you find a right answer to my question then you will find audiogon is better than goodsoundclub for you.
10-15-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 54
Post ID: 25639
Reply to: 25638
Wow
Amir! we are friends, but it dosen't mean that we must share same ideas. I don't understand what is this all fuss about???
10-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 308
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 55
Post ID: 25640
Reply to: 25638
Amir, this is open internet space
Amir, what you have written is not  a philosophy, it is not a path that guides decisions, not a document what gives others insight into what music does to you and why. I have been following your posting, and to be honest, it sounds more like an audio dealer trying stuff out instead of a philosophy of decisions based on your reaction to music. That is fine. One does not „need“ to have defined reasons for anything in life. Labelling a collection of hardware posts as philosophy is a stretch. More interesting would be what is happening in your head when you listen to music. How does your stereo draw you in to the musical picture. How does that change on bad electricity days.
As far as equipment goes, it is not the system that makes my experience high end. My personal highest end audio is when I read a conducting score without anything turned on at all. The event is 100% what I imagine and want, no disturbance by sonic events or problems in the reading. On other occasions, reading the score is too much work and a fine recording paints a different type of picture, with different colors and use of space. Even although I consider my playback to be reasonably „transparent“, it is not detailed like reading a score. It is also not like a live concert, although my listening habits for all three are similar (sit down and listen for 45-90 minutes).
Changes in my system are very seldom, not because that I have the highest resolution or best audio artifacts, rather because a change takes so long to integrate - if it can be integrated at all. I do have a project in my head that is at least 5 years old and it involves the first 1.5 octave. I have tried various schemes but have come to the point that going for Romys DPOLS probably needs to happen first. Currently adding content under 40 Hz makes the playback worse. Either everything gets too soft or too big. Without it, the sense of space makes big instruments big and intimate recordings „smaller“. With the added extension Dietrich Fischer Dieskau gets a mouth as big as the wall. Large orchestral recordings of course are glorious with more space but I am convinced that I do not need to compromise music before 1800 to get that space.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 56
Post ID: 25641
Reply to: 25638
YES SIR!!!
 Amir wrote:
This topic is my corner
You are completely wrong. When you publish something it becomes open to every critique. There is no safe corner sorry mate.
 Amir wrote:
There is No need to read my topic If you think my topic is moronic or useless or similar to audiogon
You are completely right. But I can't deny that they are fun to read. Meantime my English reading is fast enough to not to consume a lot of time
 Amir wrote:
ArmAlex you are my close friend i do not like attack you
Thank you very much for your kindness.
 Amir wrote:
i just want ask you one question, how is it possible you love impressive sound of gryphon speaker , push pull EAR amplifier ,Acoustic Revive (all are 100% recommended by stereophile ) and you read goodsoundclub and defend romy ideas?If you find a right answer to my question then you will find audiogon is better than goodsoundclub for you.

YES SIR. orders obeyed!!! I moved to AudiogonSmile


10-16-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 171
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 57
Post ID: 25642
Reply to: 25641
Keep going Amir
The guiding lights of the more vocal and philosophically inclined here somehow always lead them to BUY well reviewed, properly expensive, product of the year type of components and the general approach is throwing money on the subject like the rest of the "morons"do. No reason to feel bad about it.Warm Regards, W
10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 58
Post ID: 25643
Reply to: 25638
Incomplete
 Amir wrote:
This topic is my corner , it is about my ideas , my setup , my news and my story. I write here because i do not want create many new topics. I think it is better to write only here.There is No need to read my topic If you think my topic is moronic or useless or similar to audiogon. Romy is site administrator and he can delete this topic if he think it is useless. ArmAlex you are my close friend i do not like attack you but i just want ask you one question, how is it possible you love impressive sound of gryphon speaker , push pull EAR amplifier ,Acoustic Revive (all are 100% recommended by stereophile ) and you read goodsoundclub and defend romy ideas?If you find a right answer to my question then you will find audiogon is better than goodsoundclub for you.

above is what I can see in the forum, but i received a longer mail via email. Is this my problem or everybody else's?
10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 59
Post ID: 25644
Reply to: 25642
My history
ArmAlex  
the fun thing is that you read Romy posts here without understanding his ideas and copy paste Romy instructions in your Audio system and the result is lower than those audiogon guys (an example of your audio logic -> you buy gryphon speaker because romy says speaker should be sealedbox). please open your mind and try to find a right way to do audio.

rowuk    
I should Thank anybody for critic if his critic help me to have better look at the subject and I agree the internet is open and every body can share his critic but i also believe many critic are nonsense.

I try to describe my experience in Audio and i share my history .when i started audio in 2002 the audio was in control of 1.morons in internet , 2.magazines , 3.dealers.i have read many internet reviews and i had a accuphase/krell/dynaudio system . me and all of audiophiles in iran were in hell and all were trying to go to paradise with spending more money. it was real hell.
spending money , time and effort had no good result. i remember my cheap sony tape player had better sound than 500k$ audio systems in tehran but i could not believe that. Hans Christian Andersen had a book (The Emperor's New Clothes) , it is our story in audio. no body could confess those expensive Stereophile award products are crap.

I have listed all crap amplifiers i have listened them in iran in this topic.
I remember the first time i heard a good sound was 2008 and it was Audio Note Ankoru. i do not say the sound was perfect but i had a feeling that the sound could be good if Audio Note be in a good demo condition.in 2009 i was in ArmAlex home and that night we pulled speakers to a new place . very very accidentally the sound improved by a wide margin. i never forget that night. the sound was wonderful.
i have searched the internet and i find no result in internet just only in goodsoundclub.
check here
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=2&postID=20617  

my first post in goodsoundclub was about DPOLs.it was the first time we find a site that was different to other sites. I also have listened to romy hardwares like CEC Purepower and it was also wonderful .
I read goodsoundclub and i post here because romy audio results is very effective to me and i have common grounds many times. romy advanced audio to DSET and 6way horn and it is not possible to me to think on that scale but i know his ideas many time is very very effective even in lower scales like my two way system.

my audio story divide to two section, the past time i was convinced the audio is about taste and no system is perfect and audio is a relative subject. after some years i convinced the audio is not relative and the real quality exist itself.


Audio is subjective and it is very complex for most audiophiles and i believe audiophiles with average IQ (intelligence quotient) may could not do it right.

we can imagine the audio is about Data and beauty. "data" means how transparent is the system and "beauty" means how audio reflect the beauty and power of Music.both data and beauty are important but my sonic priority is not "transparency" (please do not mistake transparency with resolution of crap high power ss amplifiers, the transparency is described in Peter Audio Note Uk Article -> Are You on the Road to Audio Hell) , my sonic priority is "beauty".we can not define "beauty" but we can feel it.some times i write about harmonic , dynamic , Image and ... but many times the sound affect our higher perception levels and we can not describe it .(read romy six level article)
I will try to write more about dynamic harmonic image and my micro macro view on sound and about what i need .

I write about Purist , CEC, Purepower, Audiopax and Audio Note just because these tools help me to have a better sound.





10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 60
Post ID: 25645
Reply to: 25644
Illusion
Amir! Your History!!!???
Until last year you didn't have your own system. And the one you owned in 2002 couldn't listen often because your parents were not allowing you to do so.
Most of your auditions had been at my place. And listened to others' systems for a day or two. I'm not talking just about hardware but also about your music choice for listening and "testing". You couldn't go beyond Dina Krall's "All for you" album's track 5, and Amused to Death track 13.
So don't brag about your knowledge of audio and keep your advises for yourself.
10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 171
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 61
Post ID: 25646
Reply to: 25645
Two Iranians arguing on American audio forum run by a Jew ...
What a world ...Smile)
10-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 62
Post ID: 25647
Reply to: 25646
Globalization
This is called globalizationSmile
10-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 308
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 63
Post ID: 25648
Reply to: 25647
I am amazed!
In the western world we have preconceptions about availability of „luxury“ items elsewhere.  We don‘t know much about Iran and due to embargos and sanctions I had never given it much thought.

It certainly shows my ignorance but I am surprised at the apparent market in Iran but still am pretty sure that it is a very small „privileged“ group of people participating. Practicing audio certainly can reflect the local „culture“ of music appreciation. Questions come to mind about how much exposure to live music (symphony, Opera, chamber music for instance) is involved in developing musical taste - or if the primary exposure is through recordings.

I am a professional musician living in Germany and certainly can attribute playing style and articulation to basic cultural traits based on language, folk music influence, religious use of music. A spanish trumpeter plays differently than a hungarian, plays differently than a german. The instruments used can also be much different. Of course there was a time of great cultural exchange between Iran and the western world under the Shah. I dated an Iranian girl studying in Germany for a while.

I would be very interested in learning more about the live music scene in Iran. It is not my goal to Reproduce a sonic event, rather to create a plausible rendition in terms of space, geometry and connection between musicians on that „virtual“ stage. Getting playback to offer plausible tone for violins/trumpets/woodwinds is not a great feat, even very basic, or „Stereophile A grade“ playback does this. The magic is in the head and actions of the owner of the hi fi. I have heard systems with many positive playback features - regardless of the pedigree of the individual parts.

This gets back to the original thread interest. What I am missing is a philosophy. What cultural background (interest in music, interest in science, interest in society) guides musical decisions for someone in Iran. The obvious exposure to expensive audio is not culture or background. It is privilege. How do we develop taste for what is better - or only different? From my view, we build long term relationships with our music, with our equipment, with our rooms. That exposes weaknesses in ourselves, our listening habits, our cultural depth. In the process, we learn new vocabulary to communicate what art does to us inside. In a „philosophy“ I expect culture not hardware. I do not get my greatest audio high from a stereo, concert or reading a score. The audio high comes at magic moments when the mood, the surroundings and the performance create something new in me. I have cried at performances when driving my car somewhere listening to the radio. Sometimes a glass of wine and some cheese at home make a choral performance spicier. Sometimes at a live concert, I am insulted by the playing and leave. Examining all of this shows me that I am a very „lucky“ asshole. My personal playback is work in very slow progress. Very often, I find the problem with me and not the hardware - although there are issues that I can define as not „perfect“. Attempts to correct them are not always successful - then less becomes more.

What draws me to this site is not Romys Playback, rather his path to better understanding. He touches on very abstract things audio and personal that are sometimes very difficult to understand because my background is much different. With time and research however, many things become at least „clearer“. The recordings that he mentions are well worth owning and are useful to help translate the meaning of what he writes.

So, I am waiting for a philosophy instead of descriptions of the „wonderful hardware bliss“ that one has but others do not. At the same time, musings about the music that we listen to increase the believability of any posting. Talking about musical playback, but not the music is a sign of delusion.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 64
Post ID: 25649
Reply to: 25648
What's going on over here
 rowuk wrote:

It certainly shows my ignorance but I am surprised at the apparent market in Iran but still am pretty sure that it is a very small „privileged“ group of people participating. Practicing audio certainly can reflect the local „culture“ of music appreciation. Questions come to mind about how much exposure to live music (symphony, Opera, chamber music for instance) is involved in developing musical taste - or if the primary exposure is through recordings.
You are right, but what I've learned is that: There is a small "privileged" group of people practicing/affording high end gear in rest of the world also.
Regarding live music, there isn't much serious activity, though we have a semi active symphony orchestra over here. What I do-Being an Armenian I travel frequently to Armenia and enjoy from its rich music culture in Yerevan. There you'll find wonderful jazz clubs and a decent symphony hall. the last opera I attended over there was "Il Tabarro", a wonderful act.
 rowuk wrote:
A spanish trumpeter plays differently than a hungarian, plays differently than a german. The instruments used can also be much different.Of course there was a time of great cultural exchange between Iran and the western world under the Shah.
Very interesting topic! I was not aware of this. Even these days millions of Iranians travel abroad, we are not that much isolated. And a lot of people have access to satellite channels. For example Last night I was watching Mirga Grazinyte Ttyla conducting Claude Debussy on BBC proms, so we are not completely in dark.
 rowuk wrote:
From my view, we build long term relationships with our music, with our equipment, with our rooms. That exposes weaknesses in ourselves, our listening habits, our cultural depth. In the process, we learn new vocabulary to communicate what art does to us inside. In a „philosophy“ I expect culture not hardware. I do not get my greatest audio high from a stereo, concert or reading a score. The audio high comes at magic moments when the mood, the surroundings and the performance create something new in me. I have cried at performances when driving my car somewhere listening to the radio. Sometimes a glass of wine and some cheese at home make a choral performance spicier.
Wise words. Interestingly It happened to me also-crying while listening to my car radio. Many years back while I was driving to work, suddenly a song from an not very famous Armenian singer was broadcasted from Iranian radio, very old and nostalgic song, I just parked by roadside and cried. very emotional moment...

 rowuk wrote:
What draws me to this site is not Romys Playback, rather his path to better understanding. He touches on very abstract things audio and personal that are sometimes very difficult to understand because my background is much different.
What draws me to this site are both his playback, and his very interesting and unique perspective and "point of view".
 rowuk wrote:
The recordings that he mentions are well worth owning and are useful to help translate the meaning of what he writes.
I Also admire Diana Krall and specially Roger Waters, but not just their two tracks!
10-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,652
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 25650
Reply to: 25648
The nationality in Audio
The subject of “Third Country” might be interesting but depressing.  It is depressing because from what I see the nations where audio was not developed by western paths did offer any of own authentic development of vision but rather just copy all worse (and the best) that western commercial high-end audio has available. I did not mean the brands and products but rather the mindsets, objectives, frustrations, definition of success and assessment policies. Some might feel that Japan high-end audio was an enclave of uniqueness and self-propulsion but unfortunately it was not if to look at the subject wider.    
Getting familiar with various audio people around the world I very seldom come to the feeling that it is something different and I never seen that if the difference exists then it described by a national identity.  I have no idea why audio thinking is not nationalistic. You can get a music phrase and propose to a very high level certainty the heritage of the composer. You can look at the way how a person rides the mount with sky, play piano, play tennis talk, dance, conduct business or cook and we can say where he is from. We in my view we cannot get it from his a person audio installation of from his views about audio….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 66
Post ID: 25651
Reply to: 25650
Listening Level and Audio IQ
rowuk
my english may not translate what i think but i try to write , i hope it be useful.
In Tehran we have classic concert in two halls , Vahdat Hall and Roodaki Hall .   the classic music is not very active in tehran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roudaki_Hall
Mr.Shahrdad Rohani mostly is conductor and sometimes i go there to listen to Classic Music.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrdad_Rouhani 
    https://www.instagram.com/shahrdadrohani/?hl=en

i think we have around 100 audiophiles in tehran. maybe 30 of them have expensive components. my website has around 300 viewer. you can find the pictures of some audio systems in tehran here :   
http://www.hifi.ir/category/%d8%aa%d8%ad%d9%84%db%8c%d9%84-%d8%b3%db%8c%d8%b3%d8%aa%d9%85%d9%87%d8%a7-reviews/
I have heard most of audio systems in tehran because most audiophiles invited me to hear their sound . my weblog was active since 2006.

Abooali-kharma-System
krell.jpg
the audio in iran is mostly stereophile recomended components. it is very hard to buy high end these days because the exchange rate is very high .

I do not listen to classic music and my listening mostly is rock, pop, persian pop, persian classic music (Sonnati), sometimes electronics and ... If i want to listen to classic i prefer to listen it in concert hall.
my audio goal is not to be impressed by sound in short term and my goal is music satisfaction in long term. if i say i do not like gryphon or sterephile recommended components because they are boring and allways i prefer to listen to my cheap Sony Tape Player. High End is not about clean sound, it is about listener satisfaction in long term. if i say purepower is good because it helps me to enjoy music more and i know some listeners do not like purepower . my ideas about sound is a about how audio reflect the music beauty and power not how it pushes 'DATA".
read here  

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=59#59
imagine the audio system give us "Data" and reflect "beauty" of music. you know 500k$ systems like spectral give us more "Data" than a cheap sony Tape but i prefer my cheap tape player because it does not make me sad when i listen to music. the "DATA" is not more important than "Beauty" and if an audio solution be very effective in "DATA" then it should not be boring in long listening sessions.

i know what you say about music when you review the music in your mind without listening to any sound. I think we could categorize audio systems in 3 level.
Level 1 is a system that make you sad in long listening session because the sound do not make you relax for music listening in long term.
Level 2 is a system that it's sound do not change mind focus from music to sound and it let you to listen to the music for long period of time. sound is not attractive but listener is relax .
Level 3 is a system that in long term make you more interested to music listening. the sound is beautiful and emotional in higher level of perception.

the market is full of those boring high price components and the most listener can not detect the wrong sound because their mind is impressed by the illusion of resolution.

i should say the smart listener will detect the wrong sound in shorter time. there is no need to listen to 1000 records to judge a sound if you are professional listener.
i believe not all listeners are equal, the beginner listener and professional listener are different.
when you enjoy gryphon speaker for 10 years and you buy 300w gryphon amplifier to drive it then it means you never found the right way in 10 years and you will not find the right way if you test your gryphon with 1000 records and over 1000 hours of listening. i have a friend who is over 40 years in high end and he change his equipments every 6 month.
can you discuss him ? how can you convince him the audio is not about DATA ?

i think audio IQ is important like other games in the world. if you are not smart enough you can not be winner of game. it is very simple .
I also believe most musicians and players in my city are not professional audio listeners, maybe few of them but not all of them. I was dulcimer player for some years.
rowuk  , i do not speak about you and i just say i know players who do not know good sound.
I remember i have wrote about listener levels.
i will share it here very soon.
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 67
Post ID: 25652
Reply to: 25651
Misinformation
 Amir wrote:
rowuk

In Tehran we have classic concert in two halls , Vahdat Hall and Roodaki Hall .   the classic music is not very active in tehran.


It's very funny that the guy with highest IQ in Iran doesn't know Vahdat Hall and Roudaki Hall are different names for same place.Roudaki changed to Vahdat after revolutionSmile
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 308
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 68
Post ID: 25653
Reply to: 25651
Audio IQ is the stuff that audiophools are made of
Amir, I certainly will not argue that many professional musicians have „easy playback“ with no demand for audiophile artifacts in their sound. This is often because they are drawn into the music at a „different“ level. The imaging that the audiophile wants has nothing to do with the reality that they experience daily on stage. The HF and LF extension that an audiophile praises is almost never integrated and makes real instruments sound wrong.

I find the term audio IQ laughable and the claim that you have to be smart to have it even more problematic. I would simply prefer that you talk about sound and music and avoid the hardware elitism that only demonstrates something quite opposite to IQ.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 69
Post ID: 25654
Reply to: 25653
Just do it
 rowuk wrote:
Amir, I certainly will not argue that many professional musicians have „easy playback“ with no demand for audiophile artifacts in their sound. This is often because they are drawn into the music at a „different“ level. The imaging that the audiophile wants has nothing to do with the reality that they experience daily on stage. The HF and LF extension that an audiophile praises is almost never integrated and makes real instruments sound wrong.

When i say many musicians do not know about right sound it does not mean they do not like Audiophile artifacts .You can test yourself , ask your musician friend and let him to listen two different system then ask him about the sound.
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 70
Post ID: 25655
Reply to: 25652
There is two halls
 ArmAlex wrote:
 Amir wrote:
rowuk

In Tehran we have classic concert in two halls , Vahdat Hall and Roodaki Hall .   the classic music is not very active in tehran.


It's very funny that the guy with highest IQ in Iran doesn't know Vahdat Hall and Roudaki Hall are different names for same place.Roudaki changed to Vahdat after revolutionSmile

Before revolution the name was Roudaki hall. This place has two halls and after revolution the bigger hall name became Vahdat Hall and the smaller hall name is roudaki hall.
مجموعه تالار رودکی در اصل شامل دو تالار می‌شد. بعد از انقلاب ۵۷ تالار بزرگ‌تر را به تالار وحدت و تالار کوچک‌تر را به تالار رودکی تغییر نام دادند و پس از انقلاب اسلامی در این تالار بیشتر کنسرتهای موسیقی و نمایشهای تئاتر اجرا شده‌است
Please check here https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/تالار_وحدت
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 99
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 71
Post ID: 25656
Reply to: 25655
Two halls
Do I need to answer Amir's ridicules posts anymore? Probably not,this is last one maybe. There is two halls in Vahdat hall, but just one are beening used for classical performances since the day one fifty years back, the other one is for theater.
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 72
Post ID: 25657
Reply to: 25656
Misinformation
 ArmAlex wrote:
Do I need to answer Amir's ridicules posts anymore? Probably not,this is last one maybe. There is two halls in Vahdat hall, but just one are beening used for classical performances since the day one fifty years back, the other one is for theater.

ArmAlex  
you told me internet is open space and there is no safe corner and i just respond to your misinformation.

Please update your information , you can go there and ask about it.
over 4 times recently i went there for classic concert , three times to vahdat hall and one time to roudaki hall. roudaki hall is smaller .
shahrdad rohani conduct his group in both halls but mostly in vahdat hall.
please do not share misinformation.
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 308
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 73
Post ID: 25658
Reply to: 25654
Musicians generally do not play by the same rules
 Amir wrote:
 rowuk wrote:
Amir, I certainly will not argue that many professional musicians have „easy playback“ with no demand for audiophile artifacts in their sound. This is often because they are drawn into the music at a „different“ level. The imaging that the audiophile wants has nothing to do with the reality that they experience daily on stage. The HF and LF extension that an audiophile praises is almost never integrated and makes real instruments sound wrong.

When i say many musicians do not know about right sound it does not mean they do not like Audiophile artifacts .You can test yourself , ask your musician friend and let him to listen two different system then ask him about the sound.

Amir, think about this - do I believe someone who is exposed to live music daily - or some self proclaimed audiophile without much live exposure? Even if the musician can not give words to their „perception“ of the audio event, we communicate at the „musical“ level. This is perhaps not much help to improve my playback, but I sure benefit from their response to the performance.

I specifically mentioned audiophile artifacts as they are disturbing and very amusical. Musicians do very much understand Sound, as they manipulate it in the concert halls that they play in. They simply do not have any interest in the worship ceremony as they listen to the performance, not the technological playback. In some respects, they are lucky. No ballast from audiophool parameters.

This still does not mean that the musician can define any audio objectives - most cannot, they also do not need to for pleasure. Most self proclaimed audiophiles are worse however, because they claim to know something where in most cases they are clueless.

I play trumpet professionally and have many friends listen to my and their own playback. Without exception, they like mine better but are not willing to invest time, space and resources because they get what they „need“ even from their Bose Wave Radio. I would even say that if someone cannot „get“ the music with a primitive playback, then they are listening to the wrong things and certainly can make no claim to being smart. I do not believe in audio IQ - except to say, the more that I know, the more humble I become because I realize how much I still do not know.

I think that you may have a playback that you enjoy, but there is nothing in your posting that I find stimulating or of use to me as your listening seems to be at a very low level. No posts about philosophy, music, perception. Just hardware and an elitist attitude that you have not yet been able to defend. Please stop arguing with Alex. He seems to know you better than you do yourself.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 10
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 74
Post ID: 25659
Reply to: 25658
Musicians' responses to music
Musicians do respond differently to music than non-musicians. Brain scans have shown that different parts of the brain light up when their 'genre' of music or something close to it, or otherwise something easily comprehensible, is played to them, compared to the brains of non-musicians - they cannot avoid hearing things analytically, practically, functionally.

As an organist and choirmaster myself (amateur/semi-pro nowadays but professionally trained and with a background in both scholarship and performance) I can really relate to this - for example it's impossible in lots of cases NOT to 'know' the key something is in (from a variety of cues, including I suspect timbral association), or to imagine a bass line as a written line. Baroque and renaissance music (especially keyboard music) I live and breathe (I have both a harpsichord and a piano at home, play every day), and I've also done quite a bit with Lieder and classical/early Romantic piano (though I'd be the first to admit piano technique isn't my strong point).
When listening to this music of course there is emotional impact but I'm also listening for a huge amount of other things. By contrast when I listen to jazz whether live or recorded I know I listen differently, of course you can't help but try to make sense of structure but I feel the emotional impact can be more direct as the chord structures and changes are too complex for me to follow. I've deliberately not studied or attempted to play jazz for this reason, to keep it in a separate mental/emotional/physical category.

When it comes to reproduction though, I don't think this plays out in any particular way. When I was at boarding school in the UK in the 1970s, I was introduced to hifi by my maths teacher, who had Quad ESLs, Quad II amps and some kind of Sony turntable, though most of his listening was on Sony cassette tape a lot of it recorded from a Leak valve tuner. That was an education, not just in musical repertory but in reproduction as well. So I had a head start on many musicians and bought my first set of Tannoys in the mid 80s with what was my first full-time pay cheque (as a journalist but that's another story - though I had been earning for quite some time previously as a music teacher and performer).

I agree that many musicians don't have much of a clue about hifi, and very few indeed would consider spending the sort of money or attention I've lavished on my system. This I believe is down to my first paragraph - how musicians listen differently. They aren't listening for 'hifi' attributes of soundstage, or accurate timbre, or 'fine detail' at all. Most of what they listen to happens in their heads, so they can easily fill in any deficiencies with their imagination. I 'suffer' from this myself when asked to critique people's systems - often if it's music I like my mind goes to the music, not the reproduction. In fact my system has largely been built around my wife's ears, which are magnificent. (We met at a Schumann Lieder recital). She is much, much faster than me in hearing problems, in hearing improvements, and in guiding what needs to be done. She is usually right (occasionally I have to slow her down as she can come to snap judgments before things have warmed up or run in) and it's very very seldom we disagree on what a piece of kit is or isn't doing. She isn't a musician but has been a concert-goer all her life.

Philosophically, I see my hifi system as an emotional delivery mechanism, but one that can also deliver the analytical information necessary for me to understand what I'm hearing. That sounds simple, but if the rhythm isn't right, if there room ambience is missing, if there is distortion, emotional delivery can break down. I've worked empirically to find out what works. Idler turntables over belt or DD. Low compliance cartridges and heavy tonearms. Vinyl over everything. Non-oversampling, redbook DAC. Tannoy dual concentric speakers. Nothing over-etched or over-detailed. Single ended and triode were possible. Limited local feedback. Minimise the gain stages, only use what power is necessary.

The result is attending Munich High End and finding only a few people doing anything worth listening to - Thomas Mayer perhaps, the Audio Note room (a minibus ride away), Reinhard Thoress's room .. there is some interesting stuff but so much of it is big multi-driver shiny speakers (your Wilsons and the like) driven by boring, giant solid state amps and with utterly awful streaming systems on the front end.

I don't have any truck with systemisation, yes Peter Qvortrop has done well making his vast product range comprehensible from a marketing perspective with his 'levels' where you pay more each time, and yes you do get more of this and that as you go up the line, but the notion that there's a 'level 1' or 'level 2' system (as opposed to a component given a marketing label and a price point) I simply reject. Synergies are there for exploration, yes there are combinations you should in principle avoid - such as a flea power amp and an 86db speaker - but to an extent almost everything in my world is suck it and see.

Incidentally I don't know anything about the wider Iranian music scene but I have had the privilege of hearing Mahan Esfahani several times at the Wigmore Hall in London, one of the finest harpsichordists currently performing. (We are regular Pinnock followers too especially his smaller-scale events, music clubs and the like - we heard him not so long ago in an 18th century house in Hampstead playing Handel on Handel's own Ruckers harpsichord, which was already a famous and venerable instrument when he bought it, in front of 40 people). Esfahani studied with the wonderful Zusana Ruzickova and while their styles are very different something of her passion can be seen in how he plays. But then many Iranians I have met have been wonderfully passionate people. I guess it all goes back to Hafez, Shirazi, Khayyam ...
10-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 220
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 75
Post ID: 25660
Reply to: 25658
Audio
 rowuk wrote:
 Amir wrote:
 rowuk wrote:
Amir, I certainly will not argue that many professional musicians have „easy playback“ with no demand for audiophile artifacts in their sound. This is often because they are drawn into the music at a „different“ level. The imaging that the audiophile wants has nothing to do with the reality that they experience daily on stage. The HF and LF extension that an audiophile praises is almost never integrated and makes real instruments sound wrong.

When i say many musicians do not know about right sound it does not mean they do not like Audiophile artifacts .You can test yourself , ask your musician friend and let him to listen two different system then ask him about the sound.

Amir, think about this - do I believe someone who is exposed to live music daily - or some self proclaimed audiophile without much live exposure? Even if the musician can not give words to their „perception“ of the audio event, we communicate at the „musical“ level. This is perhaps not much help to improve my playback, but I sure benefit from their response to the performance.

I specifically mentioned audiophile artifacts as they are disturbing and very amusical. Musicians do very much understand Sound, as they manipulate it in the concert halls that they play in. They simply do not have any interest in the worship ceremony as they listen to the performance, not the technological playback. In some respects, they are lucky. No ballast from audiophool parameters.

This still does not mean that the musician can define any audio objectives - most cannot, they also do not need to for pleasure. Most self proclaimed audiophiles are worse however, because they claim to know something where in most cases they are clueless.

I play trumpet professionally and have many friends listen to my and their own playback. Without exception, they like mine better but are not willing to invest time, space and resources because they get what they „need“ even from their Bose Wave Radio. I would even say that if someone cannot „get“ the music with a primitive playback, then they are listening to the wrong things and certainly can make no claim to being smart. I do not believe in audio IQ - except to say, the more that I know, the more humble I become because I realize how much I still do not know.

I think that you may have a playback that you enjoy, but there is nothing in your posting that I find stimulating or of use to me as your listening seems to be at a very low level. No posts about philosophy, music, perception. Just hardware and an elitist attitude that you have not yet been able to defend. Please stop arguing with Alex. He seems to know you better than you do yourself.
RowukIf i spend my time to answer you please do not judge me without enough information. Please focus only on the subject. I have no interest to answer you when you can not separate audio from music. Your response to my post in pure power was not good and you continue same here.Please do not confuse the audio subject and music , they are different and I told you we can enjoy music even with cheap airpod. If we are here in goodsoundclub then we are sharing our ideas about audio and how we can improve it .I ask you , if there is no need to think about audio why you are here?If you do not believe in audio then visiting here is useless but if audio is important then we can share our ideas about how playback system should sound.If you think all audiophiles love artifact sound you are 100% wrong and if you think all musicians prefer natural sound to artifact sound then i know some musicians they are opposite of your opinion. 
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