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08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 51
Post ID: 21917
Reply to: 21914
GPA 288 + JBL 2453
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today LeCleach 550hz arrived together with another round horn - Jabo KH-53 (350hz).I've measured 3 drivers in 550hz horn: GPA 288, JBL 2453 and JBL D2430K D2.JBL 2453 really impressed me. This is definitely best driver I ever had!Tone is perfect and it is linear from 1200hz to 14khz!For the lower mid I've tried 288 in 350hz horn and got good curve from 500hz.So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.I don't think that 288 can do it. May be I need to try 2490, but can't find it.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 191
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 52
Post ID: 21918
Reply to: 21917
One from left of field...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.

Perhaps give the JBL 2169H a try.  It is supposedly very good from 300Hz to 2.2kHz, but I have never tried it.  Use it in a sub 200Hz tractrix horn with a 4" throat and sensitivity should be around 108dB/w/m.  It is an 8" cone compression driver.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 53
Post ID: 21919
Reply to: 21917
Frequnecy response
fiogf49gjkf0d
Want to share what I got with 1st order.
fr.png

Next step is to build 240Hz LeCleach and try JBL 2490 in it to get blue line down to 300-400.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 54
Post ID: 21920
Reply to: 21918
8" up to 2kHz ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.

Perhaps give the JBL 2169H a try.  It is supposedly very good from 300Hz to 2.2kHz, but I have never tried it.  Use it in a sub 200Hz tractrix horn with a 4" throat and sensitivity should be around 108dB/w/m.  It is an 8" cone compression driver.

8" diaphragm....isn't it too big and heavy ?And with 1st order I'm not sure...I'll try JBL 2190!This is the only modern driver which can do it.I've decided not to go for clones of old design.If not work properly, then I introduce another channel for 250-500 range...may be based on JBL 2169H!Another option is to extend Vitavox in 42Hz horn to 500Hz.I don't know what is better.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 191
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 55
Post ID: 21921
Reply to: 21920
Not your normal cone driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
 anthony wrote:
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.

Perhaps give the JBL 2169H a try.  It is supposedly very good from 300Hz to 2.2kHz, but I have never tried it.  Use it in a sub 200Hz tractrix horn with a 4" throat and sensitivity should be around 108dB/w/m.  It is an 8" cone compression driver.

8" diaphragm....isn't it too big and heavy ?And with 1st order I'm not sure...I'll try JBL 2190!This is the only modern driver which can do it.I've decided not to go for clones of old design.If not work properly, then I introduce another channel for 250-500 range...may be based on JBL 2169H!


It is a compression driver with an 8" cone.  If you want authority at 300Hz you will need diaphragm area.  The Fane Studio 8M that Romy and plenty of others use for 100Hz up to 1kHz is an 8" cone driver on a 4" throat with a closed back-chamber to make it into a compression driver, which effectively is the topology of the 2169H.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 56
Post ID: 21922
Reply to: 21921
Supravox vs JBL 2169H
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:

It is a compression driver with an 8" cone.  If you want authority at 300Hz you will need diaphragm area.  The Fane Studio 8M that Romy and plenty of others use for 100Hz up to 1kHz is an 8" cone driver on a 4" throat with a closed back-chamber to make it into a compression driver, which effectively is the topology of the 2169H.
I respect others experience, but still not sure that I want to hear 8" diaphragm in 500+ range.And with 1st order crossover I'll have it.May be I'm wrong, but really...27gramm is too much. My 12" Supravox in 42Hz horn is 18g.And I also made it in closed back-chamber like compression driver.
08-27-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 191
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 57
Post ID: 21923
Reply to: 21922
You don't have to go there...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
 anthony wrote:

It is a compression driver with an 8" cone.  If you want authority at 300Hz you will need diaphragm area.  The Fane Studio 8M that Romy and plenty of others use for 100Hz up to 1kHz is an 8" cone driver on a 4" throat with a closed back-chamber to make it into a compression driver, which effectively is the topology of the 2169H.
I respect others experience, but still not sure that I want to hear 8" diaphragm in 500+ range.And with 1st order crossover I'll have it.May be I'm wrong, but really...27gramm is too much. My 12" Supravox in 42Hz horn is 18g.And I also made it in closed back-chamber like compression driver.

I understand that.  You were after drivers that can do 300Hz up...well according to some the 2169H is a good one (I've not heard it).  It might bridge the gap between your 42Hz horn and your midrange.
08-27-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 58
Post ID: 21924
Reply to: 21923
Throat reactance
fiogf49gjkf0d
From what I gather the JBL 2169 driver is an 8" cone speaker with a sealed back chamber. If this is so it was designed for a specific horn. It shall be used in that horn or a very similar one. The back chamber should be tuned/designed for the horn it will be working on.
08-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 59
Post ID: 21926
Reply to: 21922
Supravox modified
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have also designed my bass horn to operate between 160hz and 600hz and it will use a supravox 285-2000. It is a 110hz cutoff tractrix horn. However I found out that, there is a modified version of this driver that suits my purposes better. It is by German Hornfabrik and they have removed the phase plug among other things as the driver does not need to operate in higher registers. This is what I am in the process of ordering today Smile 

Here is what Helmut from hornfabrik has written to me;
"The 285-2000 HF (= Hornfabrik) is characterized by no phase plug and some other features. This speaker has a higher resonance frequency and is usable from 100 to 1000 Hz. If horn-loaded from 150 - 600 a simple 6dB-filter will do (2,2  mH )and a soft RC-filter at 2 kHz. That will do. A very fine, sonor sound with wonderful mids. We use this speaker in our best horn-systems from 150 - 500 Hz."
08-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 60
Post ID: 21928
Reply to: 21926
Supravox 285 with adjustable magnetic field
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
I have also designed my bass horn to operate between 160hz and 600hz and it will use a supravox 285-2000. It is a 110hz cutoff tractrix horn. However I found out that, there is a modified version of this driver that suits my purposes better. It is by German Hornfabrik and they have removed the phase plug among other things as the driver does not need to operate in higher registers. This is what I am in the process of ordering today Smile 

Here is what Helmut from hornfabrik has written to me;
"The 285-2000 HF (= Hornfabrik) is characterized by no phase plug and some other features. This speaker has a higher resonance frequency and is usable from 100 to 1000 Hz. If horn-loaded from 150 - 600 a simple 6dB-filter will do (2,2  mH )and a soft RC-filter at 2 kHz. That will do. A very fine, sonor sound with wonderful mids. We use this speaker in our best horn-systems from 150 - 500 Hz."
I've got 285-2000 EXC to play with different voltages and adjust sentivity, because I expect that most sensitive channel will be this.What are you using below 150hz ?
08-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 61
Post ID: 21929
Reply to: 21928
2490 found!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I found 2490, so very soon I'll test how low it can go in JBLs 1x1m mouth horn designed for 2490.Also I've decided to order 270hz LeCleac'h horn from Poland (http://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-270/).If it works well with 2490, I order custom 240hz from wood.
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 21930
Reply to: 21929
Do not rush.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I would advise you do not order any horns with aiming 2490. Get the drivers first and order the horns AFTER you feel that the driver satisfy you. The fact that the loaded driver can hit 300Hz does not mean a lot. You need to like the sound of the driver at 300hz not juts acoustic pressure it creates.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 63
Post ID: 21931
Reply to: 21928
Sealed bass arrays below 110 horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am using sealed bass arrays of 3 per side. I have six 10" scanspeak woofers in total. I aim to operate them from 38hz to 160hz with qtc 0.707
I also have a tapped horn that I am using with my current horn system. It is 244cm's high and 125kg's completeley inert tapped horn, that can operate between 18hz to 80hz. I may use it between 18hz to 38hz if I feel like it.
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 64
Post ID: 21932
Reply to: 21930
300-500Hz range
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Well, I would advise you do not order any horns with aiming 2490. Get the drivers first and order the horns AFTER you feel that the driver satisfy you. The fact that the loaded driver can hit 300Hz does not mean a lot. You need to like the sound of the driver at 300hz not juts acoustic pressure it creates.

Sure, I'm going to try it in JBL 2352 horn first. I also would like to share predicted SPL of my 42Hz horn with Supravox 285-2000 EXC at 12V:
midsch.jpg 
And 9V:
result_SPL9.jpg

The idea is to highpass next channel at 500-600hz and if it is flat down to 300hz, I have around -6db at 250-300hz and it is good match with predicted SPL of upper bass. Romy, can you, please, share your thoughts about 2490 ? I read thread here and you didn't rise any conclusion. And have you had any experience with other 4" JBL drivers 24XX ?And can you point to what aspects of sound I need to pay attention during evaluation of 300-500 range ?Too much questions as usually SmileThank you!
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 65
Post ID: 21933
Reply to: 21931
Sealed bass array again ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
I am using sealed bass arrays of 3 per side. I have six 10" scanspeak woofers in total. I aim to operate them from 38hz to 160hz with qtc 0.707
I also have a tapped horn that I am using with my current horn system. It is 244cm's high and 125kg's completeley inert tapped horn, that can operate between 18hz to 80hz. I may use it between 18hz to 38hz if I feel like it.
Hm...interesting...sealed bass array again.So, I really have to evaluate this approach.After finishing with inital approach, I'll definately try it.Because 2m long horn is not very convinient Smile
In this case I can make shorter horn for 100-150 to 500 range and introduce sealed bass array.Well, at the end it looks like Romy's design Smile
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 21934
Reply to: 21931
Sealed vs traped
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
I am using sealed bass arrays of 3 per side. I have six 10" scanspeak woofers in total. I aim to operate them from 38hz to 160hz with qtc 0.707
I also have a tapped horn that I am using with my current horn system. It is 244cm's high and 125kg's completeley inert tapped horn, that can operate between 18hz to 80hz. I may use it between 18hz to 38hz if I feel like it.
This is very interesting. You have 3 per side 10 in hers (are they my drivers?) in sealed in closure and a taped horn operating in the same region. Can you describe where you feel is difference in sound? Also, how do you drive your array. 3 drivers per side that would be all parallel configuration that would make it to be a bit above 1R impedance.... Not any amp will handle it.... Did you go DSET or use a flimsy ss amp?

Rags, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 67
Post ID: 21935
Reply to: 21934
Not 10" but 12" arrays
fiogf49gjkf0d
No, the drivers are the same brand but a different model than yours. They are not 10" but 12", it was a typo I made.

They are 30w/4558T00. I guess they have lower fs (17hz) then your drivers. 3 of them in serial makes them 8ohms. I am in the lookout for amps. 8ohm and 2 x 400 watts class D amps will be coming soon for me to try. I have all the winter ahead of me for my new system and its adjustments. 
Tapped horn will not be operating in the same region, if I use them both at the same time. Tapped horns are good for reaching down to 20s, but their sound is not up to par above 60hz with the rest of my system. This may be, I am more sensitive above 60hz...
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 68
Post ID: 21936
Reply to: 21932
Response of supravox 285-2000 in 110cf
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here is my response for the Supravox 285-2000 in 110cf tractrix. I designed a sealed chamber and with the qtc 0.707 it is tuned to 160hz. However I hope the modified version will be even better!
cf110supravox285AP.jpg
08-29-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 69
Post ID: 21937
Reply to: 21936
110cf tractrix for 150hz ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
Here is my response for the Supravox 285-2000 in 110cf tractrix. I designed a sealed chamber and with the qtc 0.707 it is tuned to 160hz. However I hope the modified version will be even better!
I think that Group Delay and Acoustic Impedance is not good at 150Hz for this model, so may be you need to lower frequency for tractrix.If I decide to use bass array at 50-150Hz, than from 150hz I suggest to use 70Hz horn 1m long and 1m in diameter.But this is theoretical suggestion...may be Romy can suggest practially. It will be more intersting.
08-30-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 70
Post ID: 21938
Reply to: 21937
Tapped Horn + Bass Array
fiogf49gjkf0d
I come up with the idea to introduce 6th channel and add bass array in between tapped horn and upperbass horn. Benefits:
1. I can use 1st order lowpass for Tapped Horn at 15-20Hz
2. 30Hz+ range become time-aligned
3. I don't need to go very low with upperbass horn and can stay at safe distance from horn cutoff frequency and may be consider at least 0.5m shorter one and may be smaller (8") driver to cover higher range (100-500Hz) and I don't need "exculsive" drivers capable to play lower than 500Hz for the next channel.
Finally, Macondo copy with TH Smile
I'm working on visualization of this idea!
08-31-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 71
Post ID: 21939
Reply to: 21937
Half octave above
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am crossing around 160hz, which is half octave above my horns limit as it is a 110hz tractrix horn. The horn is 1 metere in diameter in its mouth (this is dictated by the cf and the tractrix curve). Anyway, here is my group delay.
110tractrixsupravox3.jpg


09-09-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 72
Post ID: 21965
Reply to: 21938
288 doesn't work well for me
fiogf49gjkf0d
What I can say after audition of 2-way system with GPA 288 in 350hz horn and JBL 2453 in 550hz horn is that I like the sound without GPA 288.1-way JBL 2453 sounds terrific and 288 can't match that level.So, driver for 1200hz down is under consideration.I'm going to try 2453, 2451, 2490 and Supravox 12" for this range.I've ordered 200hz LeCleach from AutoTech with 6" throat to try 12" Supravox for the 300-1200hz range.And compare with JBL 2490 in its own JBL horn.I'll share my impressions soon...
09-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 73
Post ID: 21970
Reply to: 21938
Time alignment of TH
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't think you can align the tapped horn. My tapped horn has a total length around 5 metres. To time align that with my other drivers, its got to be around 5 metres closer than others. The only other solution is delaying the rest of the channels...
If you are going to cross it around 30z, I don't know if alignment will create much of a difference. I am building my 5 way down to 38hz flat and have the tapped horn as a 6th channel. I will report to you about my experience of the sound. However I won't be aligning my 6th channel and actually won't be using it on music. My idea is to use it on movies only...
I have also changed my bass array from 12" scanspeaks to 16" TAD 1601b's. Rather than having 3 on each side, I will have 2 on each side and still with better efficiency and response.
09-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 74
Post ID: 21971
Reply to: 21970
TH is under examination
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
I don't think you can align the tapped horn. My tapped horn has a total length around 5 metres. To time align that with my other drivers, its got to be around 5 metres closer than others. The only other solution is delaying the rest of the channels...
If you are going to cross it around 30z, I don't know if alignment will create much of a difference. I am building my 5 way down to 38hz flat and have the tapped horn as a 6th channel. I will report to you about my experience of the sound. However I won't be aligning my 6th channel and actually won't be using it on music. My idea is to use it on movies only...
I have also changed my bass array from 12" scanspeaks to 16" TAD 1601b's. Rather than having 3 on each side, I will have 2 on each side and still with better efficiency and response.
I'm also not sure that I continue using TH for music reproduction. I have some idea to get time-aligned LF at 100db! I share later when I get result.
Can you, please, share what channels you have: drivers and horn frequencies ?
09-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 75
Post ID: 21972
Reply to: 21970
The time alignment of tapped horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
I don't think you can align the tapped horn. My tapped horn has a total length around 5 metres. To time align that with my other drivers, its got to be around 5 metres closer than others. The only other solution is delaying the rest of the channels... .
Well, this is very complicated subject. If it was not tapped horn but a regular horn of let say 40Hz and just for one octave up them I would vote for very insistently for time aliment. Yes, there are some arguments that delay of 40-80Hz with sharp low-pass filtration should not be too auditable. I disagree with it and I very much support the time alignment all the way down. I have my ULF channels that are sitting at 20Hz transition slop of 4th order (or 3rd , I do not remember now) and I do clearly acknowledge the impact to Sound when I move the bass towers a fit closer of further. Yes, the precision of time alignment for lower octaves is not as critical and for MF. If your tweeter, or MF need to be set with a sub millimeter precession, your 100Hz horns would be OK with sub sentiments precision but your 40Hz channel would need to be within let say 2-3 cm “there”. Of cause it is VERY hard in case of horns, particularly in case of “honest” horns and if you can’t do it then you use at as is and do not let the time misalignment to bother yourself. 

  In case your channels is not horn but a tapped horn a situation is more confusing. The tapped horn has much longer time length from one side. However, it also produces much more noise (it is juts my accusation and I feel it is still a ported box) from the “port” and only god knows if it has any benefit to align the front of the tapped horn’s acoustic pressure with the rest of sound. I did not have my own good tapped horn and I did not experiment with it, so I do not know the answer. I only presume that since the people who do own tapped horns are planning to use them ONLY for video and NOT for music then I presume that the time alignment for tapped horns is not necessary.   
 
Rgs,
Romy the Cat



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  124666  05-20-2011
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  107975  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  Good highs...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     148  940627  09-15-2010
  »  New  Plugin for drawing segmented petal horns i Sketchup..  Thanks...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  5598  08-15-2015
  »  New  Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..  Distance to front wall...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     68  135156  06-20-2015
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  872615  11-19-2007
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  Room treatment...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  76979  01-20-2016
  »  New  The Kato-san's Goto system..  Brilliant...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  14244  05-23-2017
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