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12-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 26
Post ID: 25197
Reply to: 25196
Classification is not related to audio components
I do not classify audiophiles by their components. I 100% agree most horn owners may be in first group or many tube lovers be in the first group.Audio components are just our tools and those classification (i do not look at it as classification) refers to mind and awarness of audiophiles. 
12-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 294
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 27
Post ID: 25198
Reply to: 25195
Levels of perception are not tied to audio or hardware
Amir, I question your statement. There are so many senses (visual, aural, touch, smell). These senses can be fooled very easily.We do not need audio playback for anything except our own personal pleasure. I insist that there is no way to measure personal pleasure.
When we want to develop our senses, there are no set ways to attack this. Sometimes a great cognac or cigar can alter our mood and we perceive a deeper level of appreciation for a book, a snack, or a live concert. The ability to appreciate MUSIC is the beginning of road to better aural awareness. Knowing Haydns intentions is significant to developing taste for that music, its performance and perhaps the recording process.
Limitations in the quality of a concert hall, recording quality, analog or digital medium do not affect the appreciation of fine music. If we allow ourselves to get distracted, then the music was not important enough.
I maintain that audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions for sound quality. I disagree. Hardware solutions only feed our egos.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
12-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 28
Post ID: 25199
Reply to: 25198
Music is different to Audio
 rowuk wrote:
Amir, I question your statement. There are so many senses (visual, aural, touch, smell). These senses can be fooled very easily.We do not need audio playback for anything except our own personal pleasure. I insist that there is no way to measure personal pleasure.
When we want to develop our senses, there are no set ways to attack this. Sometimes a great cognac or cigar can alter our mood and we perceive a deeper level of appreciation for a book, a snack, or a live concert. The ability to appreciate MUSIC is the beginning of road to better aural awareness. Knowing Haydns intentions is significant to developing taste for that music, its performance and perhaps the recording process.
Limitations in the quality of a concert hall, recording quality, analog or digital medium do not affect the appreciation of fine music. If we allow ourselves to get distracted, then the music was not important enough.
I maintain that audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions for sound quality. I disagree. Hardware solutions only feed our egos.

I 100% agree you that music is not tied to audio or audio hardware. those are different worlds and i look at audio as a separate subject.many times i listen to music with apple crap airpod or i listen to music in my car. i have no problem and i enjoy music .i think we should separate music from audio discussion. many times i enjoyed music from my 100$ portable sony but i did not enjoyed live concert of same melody.
William James "Will" Durant say "does the life quality of humans really improved after advancing Civilization?the term of "reall improvement" refer to the fact that not all improvements are real improvement .
i think smart peoples look at audio only in concept of "real improvement" and they do not goes for Vicious cycle. 
12-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 294
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 29
Post ID: 25200
Reply to: 25199
Why audio if not music?
My audio IS a musical event. If we remove the musical appreciation, what are we playing back? Why is playback even important? To feed our ego?
The relation of the recorded event to the playback is different, but the relation to my senses share many of the same things.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
12-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,643
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 25201
Reply to: 25198
Do hardware solutions and sound quality related?
 rowuk wrote:
I maintain that audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions for sound quality. I disagree. Hardware solutions only feed our egos.
 This is very complicated question, rowuk, at least in my estimation. I do not argue that solutions feed our egos, there is plenty of it but it does not exhaust the whole picture. I have been in hear a strong supporter of a view that music and audio have distinctly different objectives and means, probably it is better to say not “means” but inner-mechanism for declaring itself. It is not that music and audio do not have arrays of inner-penetration, for sure they do. Still, they are different animals. It is would be similar to design treadmills and health, they for sure are connected and one can be used to evaluate other but essentially they are very different sectors of humans endeavor. 
 
Now the complex thing: the relationship between are hardware solutions for sound quality. I very much insist that quality of hardware solutions are very directly impact sound quality and very directly impact music consequences of that sound quality. I know that you expressed skepticism but I think you incorrect.  The problem is not in the supposition that I am expressing but with the definition sound quality that might be interrupted very wide. The “audiophoolery tries to convince us that there are hardware solutions [do something] for sound quality”, and they are absolutely correct. The key is their definition of “sound quality”. The sound quality that industry is patronizing for many year is a direct consequence of hardware solutions, some of them positive, some of them negative. Did you ask yourself why for over 100 year of audio industry, in one form or another, the industry never formulated more or less standard methodology for sound quality evaluation and assessment? My point is that when “sound quality” has a proper formulation in the ears (and the most important in the minds) of sound consumers then the relationship between hardware solutions for sound quality is very direct and very unambiguous. Unfortunately, the definition of “sound quality” as it been sponsored by audio industry is not the sound that has any relation to musicality or to any other human benefits … besides the “feeding our egos”. 
 
So, are the hardware solutions and sound quality related, yes they do. Does “sound quality” is a known ingredient or even to say commodity in the industry he produced the hardware solutions? Absolutely not and therefore in most of the cased the hardware solutions indeed are just to feed our egos. It might not ned to be this way…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-26-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,213
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 25202
Reply to: 25201
Guiding System Development

For sure, not everyone consciously guides along and shapes their overall sound with the hardware they choose, and there are many variations of the “guiding” to talk about among the people who do guide their sound development. I would like to say that current “high end” sound is as generally bad as it is because it was guided there by Morons, but this would only be a partial explanation of what’s going on here.  For one thing, it appears to me that guiding sound from the beginning to the end of a system is not common whether it’s a cheap or an expensive system. And, although the music chosen to evaluate components tells a lot about the “system owner”, it’s often hard to be sure we are “listening for the same things” when we listen to “the same music”, including through the same system. This is why shaping audio is ultimately a personal thing, even when there are attempts to “brand” components or build fraternities around them. Yes, people/companies can reproduce components that sound close enough one to the other to where they can be chosen for their sound. But once a component gets plugged into a particular system in a particular room, and the music changes, it gets personal again. And it can be “argued” that this is one reason why demonstrations at hi-fi shows are rarely any good. Of course, another reason is the stupid “music”, invariably pan pipe, that sort of thing, that is used by “manufacturers” to “prove” their ideas. You have to be pre-hypnotized, going in, to buy stuff like this! In general, hi-fi components are designed based on "specs" rather than targeted sound. But this shouldn't interfere with component selection any more than sound targeted by someone else should encourage selection. Either way, it's gotta be personal!



Paul S

> >

09-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 32
Post ID: 25595
Reply to: 25202
Audiopax Model 5 Audiopax model 88
finally these beautiful pre/power delivered to me and they are playing music for break-in.I will report about sound of Audiopax model 5 & Model 88.


The system :   CEC TL0 3.0 Transport     Audio Note DAC 5 Special      Audiopax model 5     Audiopax Model 88     Audio Note AN-E SPE HE 97.5db Sensitivity (coming soon) now i use Living Voice Obx-rw3     All AN cables and Purist Cables    Pure Power 3000+ AC regenerator     
Room is 5.3m * 9m 


The model 5 pre amplifier is high voltage FET design (pure solidstate without any tube)The model 88 power amplifier 28w single ended 2x KT88 tube .Audiopax use no negative feedback and it is very sensitive to loudspeaker impedance curve.
My first impression is positive but i should wait to pass 500 hours .Audiopax solidstate pre with tube power amplifier does not sound like other tube pre/power and it is a new experience to me. My system is solidstate in transport and tube in dac and again solidstate in pre and tube in power. Very rare combination.
The power amplifier model 88 has a timbre lock setting that help us to have better sound with different loudspeakers. It is not hype and it really works for me.
I will back soon ...
10-05-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 33
Post ID: 25616
Reply to: 25595
Arrival ...
Very interesting Amir.

I am also waiting on a Model 5, to arrive in the UK. It was ordered some months ago but I ordered a balanced version (this one will be all-balanced - two balanced inputs and balanced output) and that's taking a little longer to make than expected.
My system is also somewhat similar, with the solid state pre in the middle of a largely tube system:
Audio Note CDT2/II transport, Audio Note kit DAC, much upgraded and with completely custom power supply, Schopper Thorens TD124 with Ikeda IT407 and IT345 tonearms, Miyajima Madake and Takumi stereo cartridges, Miyajima Zero 1.0 and 0.7 cartridges and Kotetu 78, Miayjima ETR-Stereo and ETR-Mono step-ups, Allnic H7000V phono stage, and Silvercore 833C monoblocks. Speakers are custom Tannoys based on the 12in HPD315A driver, with external crossovers.

The Model 5 and the Allnic replace an EAR 912 phono preamp.
I have a loan of the Audiopax L50 at the moment waiting on it and the combination is sublime ... if the Model 5 gives me most of this I will be very pleased indeed.
How are your impressions after another couple of weeks with the Model 5?
I would very much like to hear the Model 88 with my Tannoys.


10-06-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 34
Post ID: 25617
Reply to: 25616
Let me know why Audiopax inject energy to the sound
first i should say i need more time to judge the Audiopax for some reasons but i try to share the first thing come to my mind after listening to Audiopax.
I should say i use Pure Power 3000+ , I mean i judge Audiopax when it is connected to PurePower.

Audiopax is not like other amplifiers i have ever heard. I have heard Tenor EAR Ayon Pathos Shanling Raysonic Accuphase Naim Krell Mark Levinson Burmester Vitus Audio Research Conrad Johnson ASR Emitter Air Tight Devialet Mcintosh NAD Denon Roksan Gryphon and ... from 2002 i have heard most of audio systems in tehran and i just only interested by Audio Note/Kondo & Audiopax products.

The pre amplifier Audiopax model 5 is solidstate high voltage FET with output transformer and it has no negative feedback, you can check it's output impedance , it is very high because it does not use NFB and you should connect it to high input impedance power amplifiers (over 200k).
The Power Amplifier Audiopax Model 88 is single ended class A1 pentode tube (it is not hybrid) amplifier with 2 KT88 per channel .The output impedance of model 88 is 3.7 ohm (it is high because it does not use negative feedback) and you should connect model 88 to flat impedance curve loudspeakers (above 6 ohm and less than 40 degrees phase). I think for average room size you should choose above 96db loudspeakers. I have ordered Audio Note UK AN-E SPe HE 97.5db Sensitivity and i will get it in november.

Like pure power 3000+ the Audiopax inject magical energy to the sound and i do not know why audiopax could do that. this is a new experience to me and it is very very positive. these are my guests :
1. the energy in sound may come from using soildstate pre with tube power like CEC TL0/Audio Note DAC Combination. in past I have heard hybrid power amplifier but no hybrid power amplifier was good to me. i also have heard EAR solidstate pre 312 with EAR 861 tube power amplifier but 312/861 did not inject any energy to the sound (the EAR were also connected to pure power 3000+).
2. the energy in sound may come from using different PSU design . Silvio told me Audiopax do not use any regulator in PSU.
3. the energy in sound may come from model 5 design (my friend told me it may use X-Factor like Lamm Pre)
it seems Eduardo de Lima was very smart designer.
i do not know why Audiopax inject energy to sound and i ask here if any body could tell me why? it is 2 weeks that i think about this question and i hope i could find the answer.


10-06-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 35
Post ID: 25618
Reply to: 25617
More Audiopax ....
Interesting post. Having heard in my system both a first generation Model 5 (which is what persuaded me to order the current model) and the L50, I do know what you mean about energy. It's partly dynamics, but also a great sense of musicality, of timing, 'snap' ... the Audiopax is a very enjoyable preamp.




10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 36
Post ID: 25619
Reply to: 25618
It is about dynamics
yes , the “energy” is about dynamics 
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 37
Post ID: 25620
Reply to: 25619
Silvio Comment
I publish here the Silvio Email about model 5 and model 88 to correct my description :

                                                                                        .
"I have only two observations/suggestions:

    The final result in terms of volume that you get with a system is related with speaker sensibility, amplifier power, room size and personal tastes. I have  very satisfied customers that have the Model 88 with very low sensibility speakers (from 87dB), as the Merlins.
    It’s a more precise if we say that we use no “conventional regulators” in our PSUs

Best regards,

Silvio"

10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 38
Post ID: 25621
Reply to: 25620
Audiopax continued
Thanks Amir. My Tannoys are 92db, and measure reasonably flat, but don't usually go well with single ended power amps as they need at least a moderate damping factor to control the large cone, otherwise the bass can be poorly defined (working best in the 20 to 50 damping factor range - higher than this and the life can get sucked out) - this seems to apply regardless of the absolute power rating.
However my current single ended amps seem to work very well, I don't have measurements though. I remain curious about the Model 88 but will need to wait a little I think before I can hear a set. Meanwhile I am quite excited about the Model 5 which I hope will be completed soon.

I was trying to message you directly regarding the output impedance of the Model 5, I'm keen to know what value you measured, but I don't seem to be able to send a message, perhaps I don't have enough posts yet.
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 39
Post ID: 25622
Reply to: 25621
Minimum power
amplifier should not clip before loading the room by speaker , this is the minimum power we need.I think 92db needs over 60w for medium size rooms.

10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 40
Post ID: 25623
Reply to: 25622
Odd calculation
How do you make that calculation? Seems to be way out of line with my experience. I have been very happy with 35w maximum of Radford STA25 push-pull valve power, and my current 20w single ended works just fine.

I'm listening to mainly to renaissance, baroque and classical music, not running a discotheque. I can't ever recall driving amps to clipping.
Could you share the measurement of the Model 5?
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 41
Post ID: 25624
Reply to: 25623
Good dynamic vs sound level
I can hear loud sound from 20w single ended when it drives 92db speaker but i do not care about sound level and the dynamic is important to me.
10-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 42
Post ID: 25625
Reply to: 25624
Good dynamic vs sound level
The question I asked was how you arrived at 60w minimum for a 92db speaker which sounded wrong to me and simply doesn’t fit my experience. What rule of thumb are you applying.  
In any case an amplifier’s current delivery capability can have far more impact on the sound than simply it’s number of watts, just as the crossover impedance characteristics can be more important than the measured sensitivity. Tannoys are a bit of a special case in some ways. 
Also could you share the output impedance measurement you referenced for the Model 5? You said it was high output impedance what sort of number are you talking ?
10-08-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 43
Post ID: 25626
Reply to: 25625
Average condition
About importance of impedance curve and current delivery of amplifier i agree you but generally we have some numbers (watt for spl) for average condition. Live or dead rooms and bass extension are also change the numbers .  My numbers come from my experience , for example the living voice 94db needs no more than 30 watt push pull in a 30-40 square meter and 15w single ended is not enough for living voice in 30-40 square meter. 30w single ended is not equal to 30w push pull and i think we need more power for single ended. These are my numbers for average condition :
           .

A 7.5w       101db

B 15w        98db

C 30w        95db

D 60w        92db

E 120w      89db

F 240w      86db

G 480w      83db





In some shows you see 30 watt lamm ML3 is connected to big wilson alexandria and you see most listeners are happy , it seems most listener do not care about dynamic compression and they just only care about sound level and their ears react to sound only when the sound goes to hard distortion.
about model 5 output impedance the factory declared over 500 ohm and max 1500 ohm. I did not measured it . Stereophile measured model 88 . The output impedance was 3.7 ohm for model 88 
        .
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audiopax-model-eighty-eight-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
10-08-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 44
Post ID: 25627
Reply to: 25626
Power levels
I have to say I totally disagree with you on these numbers. Perhaps for some solid state designs (somehow subjectively solid state watts never seem to have as much grunt as valve ones), driving modern multiple-driver speakers where the crossover is a major drag on performance. But the table above effectively rules out real world valve amplification for nearly all real world speakers - which, frankly, is nonsense and bears no relationship to reality of musical enjoyment.

I agree that Living Voice never sound like 94db, but they have never convinced me that their rated 94db is real or relates to any normal sort of measure, they always sound anaemic to me whatever is driving them, barely room filling under any conditions.  So I would say they are an outlier, not really representative. (Awful speakers actually).

I'm not the biggest fan of AN-E's (I think they rely to much on cabinet resonance/corner placement and tend to be a bit one-note in the bass department) but I'm sure  at a typical 92-94db given the model they work well enough with less than 60w! (Do Audio Note even make an amp with 60w?).

I think you need to do some more listening particularly to a wide range of good vintage equipment before you come to such a limiting judgment. 

Not a fan of Wilsons either, they are exactly the kind of horrible multi-driver, life-sucking monstrosities that are killing hifi - sad to see speakers just like them in almost every room at the Munich show. And yes they do need giant amps to wake them up but most of the people who buy them don't take the trouble to explore the alternatives. Anyone trying to run them with 30w is an idiot.

500 ohm nominal seems fine for a solid state preamp, nothing to worry about there, should be happy with any power amp with a 50k input impedance, 100k for safety.  (Real world again).
10-09-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 206
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 45
Post ID: 25628
Reply to: 25627
Limited experience
I have heard vintage tannoy red (driven by 30w push pull EAR 861) and vintage tannoy gold (driven by 20w set ongaku japan).  
I think for 92db the 20w is not good idea.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3746#3746
This is romy idea about needed power for tannoy red (i guess in 2007 the tannoy red played in small room) 

You can also check this 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3688#3688
10-09-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montesquieu
Berkshire UK
Posts 9
Joined on 06-03-2019

Post #: 46
Post ID: 25630
Reply to: 25628
More on Tannoys
With regards to the links, as it happens, I totally agree that 15in Tannoy Reds struggle to handle complex music. The crossover is too simplistic and the cones too hard to control with a low power amp. Reds can be lovely in a simple vintage system but they don't quite qualify as hifi in my book. Golds are considerably better and work with modern 8 ohm amps (Reds and Silvers are 16 ohm), but an Ongaku - or almost any other kind of low-power SET, regardless of quality - is the wrong thing for them entirely. I know because I have tried it too, having owned 15in Golds for many years. (Not an Ongaku but a Jinro which is much the same thing, made available to mere mortals rather than the super-rich).

in my view the HPD (particularly the 12in HPD) is the best driver Tannoy ever made, never bettered even today. Lots of reasons for that but it is the ultimate expression of the Monitor series, before Tannoy's financial difficulties  led them to start experimenting with plastic cones, cheaper magnets and the like. The expertise was progressively lost after that and never properly recovered.

I did have to laugh at your comment that 20w for Tannoys is 'not a good idea'. Ordinarily I'd agree with you on that, but it's not the whole story. I've been running Tannoys since I bought my first pair with what was effectively my first pay cheque after graduation in the mid-1980s. I've owned them ever since in all sorts of sizes - I've owned Autographs, two kinds of Lockwoods, original Lancasters, Chatsworths, Cheviots, GRFs, and various custom cabinets. My current speakers were a collaboration with Paul Coupe of RFC Audio (probably the top guy out there working with vintage Tannoys) and built to my requirements. I've had more than 40 amps through here, driving these speakers (actually closer to 50 when I go through my list), everything from Chinese cheapies to £60,000 Kronzillas, 3w 2A3 SET to 400w Class D, and all sorts in between, Class A sand amps, Class A valves of various sorts, OTL, chunky AB push pull pentodes, Kondo, AN-UK, Shindo, Leben, ARC, EAR, Pass, C-J, Berning - you name it, it's been here.

My experience is predominantly with vintage Tannoys but on another forum I do belong to a circle of people within which are several who either currently or have previously (before going vintage) had the modern Prestige series so I've heard most of the current models too. I have a soft spot for the modern Canterbury but in my view it's not quite at the level of the vintage drivers.

The big paper cone and the peculiarities of the Tannoy approach to crossovers mean that regardless of the specific model, they are an unusual speaker. They generally need a decent damping factor, but not too much - something 20-50 is normally the ideal (high power solid state in my experience gives you grip but sucks the music out of them - though some way well prefer things that way). For Tannoys generally, 25w of push pull valves will work better in my experience than high power solid state, but there's a point after which even too much valve power is not required. In general, my experience is that single ended amps, valve or solid state, struggle to control the cone. My preferred amp for a long time (about 4-5 years) was a Radford STA100, push-pull KT88. From all my amplifier experience with Tannoys I had come to the conclusion that this was the optimal setup for Tannoys.

Consequently, my current Silvercore 833C SET amps, purchased less than a year ago, were a shock. I tried them out of curiosity as part of my regular auditioning, but being 20w SET I did not expect them to control the Tannoy cones adequately. Indeed at the very margin of bass control they do not have quite the grip of Radford or EAR 100w push pull pentodes, but in every other respect the sound is considerably improved - timbre, presentation of acoustic space, musical communication, naturalism of high frequencies. I think it has something do with the unique power supply arrangement - 2 x 10A at 10V produced by its twin switching power supplies in each monoblock - and the pentode driver stage which uses the ultra-musical EL34. Whatver is the secret sauce, they do not suffer the limitations exhibited by the vast majority of single ended amps driving Tannoys (including Ongaku, Kronzilla and the like). I tried to engage their creator in a conversation about why this might be but he wasn't interested in discussing the design, which I think is unfortunate. I would love to grow my knowledge in this area.

Romy's wet cat analogy is fun and like all generalisations, it has some points of truthfulness but can never be the whole story. I have a deep suspicion of grand ideologies, systems of everything, whether we are talking religion, politics, institutions, or anything to do with art. Systems or models are never complete and there is always room for surprise. Dogmatism is as unwelcome in hifi as it is anywhere else. Actually my experience with Tannoys and Silvercore SET - I am on record elsewhere with a conclusion based on experience that 20w minimum push pull is required to get a proper sound from Golds, double that for HPDs - reminded me once again that there are no absolutes. We are all simply on a journey of exploration. It's something you might want to take into consideration when you comment too.

Anyway my maxim is: beware of hifi salesmen (or self-appointed 'experts' of any sort) who pretend (or perhaps even believe) they know it all - they are talking bollocks and such behavior immediately casts suspicion on anything at all that they have to say.



10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 91
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 47
Post ID: 25631
Reply to: 25630
Audio gone!
This thread is becoming more and more similar to threads in Audiogon and other look like sites. But I agree with below comments Anyway my maxim is: beware of hifi salesmen (or self-appointed 'experts' of any sort) who pretend (or perhaps even believe) they know it all - they are talking bollocks and such behavior immediately casts suspicion on anything at all that they have to say.

10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 294
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 48
Post ID: 25632
Reply to: 25631
If our philosophy fits in one thread - is it philosophy?
 ArmAlex wrote:
This thread is becoming more and more similar to threads in Audiogon and other look like sites. But I agree with below comments Anyway my maxim is: beware of hifi salesmen (or self-appointed 'experts' of any sort) who pretend (or perhaps even believe) they know it all - they are talking bollocks and such behavior immediately casts suspicion on anything at all that they have to say.


I find it more useful to avoid some internet people instead of trying to inform them. There is nothing in this thread that is stimulating, but no chance for education either. You are certainly right that this has more to do with Audiogon than the GoodSoundClub.
Instead of talking about hardware, what actually moves us in specific recordings would be more evidence than what I find in most of the posts here.
In any case, the philosophy at the beginning of this thread had some promise. Expectedly, it turned hardware-centric. Oh well, this is the internet. Back to Alpine Symphony, Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Once the glaciers are gone, future generations will not even know what Strauss meant...


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,213
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 49
Post ID: 25633
Reply to: 25632
Is that Opportunity I Hear Knocking?
I try every few years to home in on "leads" to Strauss's "men's chorale" works. I've heard only 2 examples, both while driving, and both times the usual "random selection" with "random explication" from "dee-jays" who hold forth on the "classical radio stations" around here. So, Robin, you brought up Strauss. As a thoughtful musician living in the heart of Straussland, do you know of obtainable examples of this particular iteration of Straussmusik?

Best regards.
Paul S
10-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 294
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 50
Post ID: 25634
Reply to: 25633
Strauss Choral works
 Paul S wrote:
I try every few years to home in on "leads" to Strauss's "men's chorale" works. I've heard only 2 examples, both while driving, and both times the usual "random selection" with "random explication" from "dee-jays" who hold forth on the "classical radio stations" around here. So, Robin, you brought up Strauss. As a thoughtful musician living in the heart of Straussland, do you know of obtainable examples of this particular iteration of Straussmusik?

Best regards.
Paul S

Hi Paul,I assume that you mean "3 Männerchöre op. 123 nach Gedichten von Rückert".
This is a very good reading (I own it):
  • Richard Strauss (1864-1949)Choral Works
  • Artists: Iwona Sobotka, Christa Mayer, Dominik Wortig, Konrad Jarnot, Rundfunkchor Berlin, Staats- und Domchor Berlin, Michael Gläser
  • Label: Coviello, DDD, 2012 
  • Order number: 2554613
  • Recorded: 1 September.2013


as is this (heard it on the radio):
  • Probably only available online here: 
  • https://www.br-shop.de/strauss/wagner/mahler- chorwerke.html

Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks/Dijkstra,PeterStrauss / Wagner / Mahler: Chorwerke
  •  900503
  • Recorded:06.02.2012
    EAN/UPC-Code:4035719005035




Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
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