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12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 26
Post ID: 17491
Reply to: 17490
What's in a name? The LV in 'LVFrame' and Russo da Collinsoni's job application letter!
fiogf49gjkf0d

As with all our ventures in life, the measure of our success is in hindsight what would have I have done differently. Although it is fairly early days for me yet, at the moment, if I went back to the drawing board and had to start again, I would have ended up with exactly the same design. Of course, I would have had the main mast taller so there would be no joint at the end but the problem was my log of timber which could not provide me with the right length of mast and legs, given that it was riddled with old 6 inches long bolts which made the task of salvaging usable lengths of timber incredibly hard. I came that close to calling it quits but then Russ again saved the day!

As some of you may know, I called this frame the LVFrame because of its use of this incredibly hard wood, Lignum Vitae (latin for ‘wood of life’). In addition, you will see that the shape of the frame is actually the result of joining the two ‘L’ formed by the mast and two legs which then spread in the shape of a ‘V’ which is the cradle support for the UB115 horn. See picture below to see what I mean:

Rakeshorns - L & V cradle.jpg

 Today I realised that actually the name I chose was particularly suitable for another reason I could not have foreseen when I embarked on this project and came up with the acronym months ago. Only last week, I managed to obtain tickets for the sold-out and once in a lifetime exhibition looking at the paintings of Leonardo Da Vinci at the National Gallery in London, whilst the polymath genius was under the patronage of the Duke of Milan, Ludovico Sforza (‘Il Moro’). In some of his drawings detailing his preparatory work to his portraits, I am sure I saw sketches very reminiscent of what I and Russ have been been working on for a few months now except that we managed to finish what we set out to accomplish whereas Da Vinci did not complete 90% of the work and projects he started.  If I were to write a letter (the translated original letter by Leonardo Da Vinci from latin can be seen here, http://www.yuricareport.com/Institute/DaVinciLetter.html ) from Russ applying for that fateful position at the ‘Moro’s court in Milan, it would read as follows:

Letter from Russo Da Collinsoni
to the Duke of Milan Applying for a Position

Having, most illustrious lord, seen and considered the experiments of all those who pose as masters in the art of inventing instruments of war, and finding that their inventions differ in no way from those in common use, I am emboldened, without prejudice to anyone, to solicit an appointment of acquainting your Excellency with certain of my secrets.

1. I can construct  a frame which is very light, strong and portable, with which to pursue and defeat the enemy; which resists fire or assault, yet is easily removed and placed in position by means of the Levina castor wheels from Germanium. It is made of a combination of the most advanced materials known to mankind, some of which have not yet been discovered.
 

2. In case of a siege, the mast of the LVFrame can be cut into the shape of pontoons or a  series of aluminium or titanium rods can be affixed in strategically positioned and equally spaced holes to make scaling ladders and other similar contrivances.

3. If by reason of the elevation or the strength of its position a place cannot be bombarded, I can add extensions to this LVframe so it is in position to demolish every fortress if its foundations have not been set on stone.

4.With a simple modification,  I can also easily transform the UB115 and other horns into cannons which are light and easy of transport, of varyingcaliber, range, mobility, range, rate of fire, angle of fire and fireower  and which will cause great terror to the enemy, so that they suffer heavy loss and confusion.

5. I can noiselessly transport my LVFrame using its revolutionary polyurethane tread that isolates it from all enemy vibrations, to any prescribed point subterranean passages either straight or winding, over which my LVframe will silently glide move to achieve its most optimum position to bombard the enemy.

6. I can make armoured wagons which can be carried on the cradle of my LVFrame for carrying artillery, which shall break through the most serried ranks of the enemy, and so open a safe passage for my Low Frequency 18" driver based heavy artillery.

7. If occasion should arise, I can construct guns and mortars and light ordnance in shape both ornamental and useful and different from those in common use.

8. When it is impossible to use cannon I can with some simple modifications transform my LVFrame into a catapult, mangonels, trabocchi, and other instruments of admirable efficiency not in general use to which can be attached some heavy Alnico, Ferrite or Neodynium magnets with which to bambard and confuse the enemy—in short, as the occasion requires I can supply infinite means of attack and defense.
 

9. And if the fight should take place upon the sea I can attach to the mast of my LVFrame a superb sail that will carry your warship over the seas to seek out and destroy the enemy navy.
 

10. In time of peace, I believe that I can give you as complete satisfaction as anyone else in the ability to listen to any music that your mood fancies as my horns are capable of reproducing all beautiful music that you care to name at the touch of a button in places public and private.

Moreover, I would undertake the commission of the LVFrame, which shall endure with immortal glory and eternal honour the auspicious memory of your father and of the illustrious house of Sforza.—
And if any of the aforesaid things should seem to anyone impossible or impracticable, I offer myself as ready to make trial of them in your park or in whatever place shall please your Excellency, to whom I commend myself with all possible humility.


Russo Da Collinsoni of Barnsley

As you can tell, I am not slightly proud of this frame and its chosen nomenclature!
 
Best regards
Rakesh
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,106
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 17492
Reply to: 17488
Chicken legs… in barbeque souse?
fiogf49gjkf0d

It looks like nice your builder doe for you a nice work. The whole design is not what I personally would look in frame as I have slightly different preferences. To me the whole concept of the bottom legs, what I call chicken legs, is not elegant and remind me the character from old Russian folklore tales: Cabin on chicken legs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1498#1498

Cabin_chicken_legs.gif

To me the lower legs, although they serve well understood purpose are kind of white flag of design as the purpose in a way defeats esthetic. It is like an American architecture in 30s – they built a wonderfully building and then they run ugly external fire escape around the facade.

Again, I approach from the position of my objective – I what the frame to be invisible and horns juts fly in air by themselves. This very much might not be your, Rakesh, objective, so whatever I say might be absolutely irrelevant to you and to your builder.

Regarding the strength. Looking at the building techniques I do not think that you will have any problem however when I say about strength I do not means that you will put the horns in the frame and the frame collapses or bends. When you go to a store and buy a brand new bad then it is dead firm and has not noises. However, after a few year of use you suddenly begin to hear noises and recognize that that wood is not so solid. The point is that the loudspeaker frame will be exposed to many microscopic vibrations and it might (or might not) weaken the joints as time goes by.

This is not criticism but the aspect that need to be considered. I am sure that with large contact surface and good wood it is possible to make the joint that will last move then a few life times…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 28
Post ID: 17493
Reply to: 17492
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent blokes
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

It looks like nice your builder doe for you a nice work. The whole design is not what I personally would look in frame as I have slightly different preferences. To me the whole concept of the bottom legs, what I call chicken legs, is not elegant and remind me the character from old Russian folklore tales: Cabin on chicken legs:

To me the lower legs, although they serve well understood purpose are kind of white flag of design as the purpose in a way defeats esthetic. It is like an American architecture in 30s – they built a wonderfully building and then they run ugly external fire escape around the facade.



I have not been exposed to the joys of reading either Russian children or Eastern literature where Baba-Yaga is some sort of archetypal cartoon character. My parents read to me classics such as 'Fables de La Fontaine' from where I progressed quickly to Tintin, Asterix, Mickey Mouse, then Marvel Comics. So your reference points are so far from mine that I am rather relieved you see in my design something which is not to your taste! 

The point of the splayed lower legs that you refer to so disparagingly is actually aesthetic as much as functional. They are wide enough to provide stability but narrow and high enough to be completely invisible from sight from the listening position.



 Romy the Cat wrote:

Again, I approach from the position of my objective – I what the frame to be invisible and horns juts fly in air by themselves. This very much might not be your, Rakesh, objective, so whatever I say might be absolutely irrelevant to you and to your builder.

The Cat


What is you say is not only irrelevant but quite wrong. The frame, legs and supporting rig are in the main invisible from the listening position and this was a design requirement from the very beginning. I do not dislike criticism of any sort, which is why I post here, but when it has no foundation, it's slightly pointless.


 Romy the Cat wrote:

It looks like nice your builder doe for you a nice work.

Regarding the strength. Looking at the building techniques I do not think that you will have any problem however when I say about strength I do not means that you will put the horns in the frame and the frame collapses or bends. When you go to a store and buy a brand new bad then it is dead firm and has not noises. However, after a few year of use you suddenly begin to hear noises and recognize that that wood is not so solid. The point is that the loudspeaker frame will be exposed to many microscopic vibrations and it might (or might not) weaken the joints as time goes by.

This is not criticism but the aspect that need to be considered. I am sure that with large contact surface and good wood it is possible to make the joint that will last move then a few life times…

The Cat


I do not know where you buy your bed and certainly have no interest in finding out what you do in it, but my bed and those that I tend to buy (it's true I am not buying them from your local discounted furniture shop in downtown Boston) do not creak, sag or loose their general functional integrity after a few years!

More to the point, I imagine you might conceivably be right about the joints weakening over time. If the LVFrame should last a few lifetimes before this becomes an issue, as you appear to suggest, I will be quite happy and will leave my great-great-great grandchildren to worry about this not quite perfect legacy of their ancestors. When problems should appear, it should be a relative simple matter to strengthen the structure with stiffening ribs as you suggested earlier. After all, one of the greatest work completed by Leonardo Da Vinci in his lifetime, 'The Last Supper' fell into ruins within 20 years or so because of the 'modular' time saving construction technique he utilised. So my slowly unravelling LVFrame will be in good company whilst it itself feels the passage of time.

Best regards
Rakesh
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,106
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 17494
Reply to: 17493
OK.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 oxric wrote:
What is you say is not only irrelevant but quite wrong. The frame, legs and supporting rig are in the main invisible from the listening position and this was a design requirement from the very beginning. I do not dislike criticism of any sort, which is why I post here, but when it has no foundation, it's slightly pointless.
 Well, “irrelevant”, “wrong”, “no foundation”, “pointless”… it is fine by me. As time goes by you will realize that those type of acoustic systems work the best when they are well extended into the room, peaty much in the mid of the rooms.  So, the absolute invisibility from the listening position is of cause is very important, in fact mandatory in my view. However, having the semi-identical loudspeaker in the middle of my room and living with it for years I feel you that side view is also important, at least for the room decor.  So, with my sincerity I think that at this point your opinions are irrelevant. Still, it is your project not my, if you like it then you like it. I comment upon it not because I would like to encourage you do something different but because I would like to expose to you the side of the subject that might be not too obvious to you at this point. I do express my reasons, you might completely discard them  but if you feel that my contribution is irrelevant and pointless then it does not encourage me provide any of my comments for the next time.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 30
Post ID: 17495
Reply to: 17494
You misunderstand me. As always. And it would be a shame if you did not comment anymore.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 oxric wrote:
What is you say is not only irrelevant but quite wrong. The frame, legs and supporting rig are in the main invisible from the listening position and this was a design requirement from the very beginning. I do not dislike criticism of any sort, which is why I post here, but when it has no foundation, it's slightly pointless.
 Well, “irrelevant”, “wrong”, “no foundation”, “pointless”… it is fine by me. As time goes by you will realize that those type of acoustic systems work the best when they are well extended into the room, peaty much in the mid of the rooms.  So, the absolute invisibility from the listening position is of cause is very important, in fact mandatory in my view. However, having the semi-identical loudspeaker in the middle of my room and living with it for years I feel you that side view is also important, at least for the room decor.  So, with my sincerity I think that at this point your opinions are irrelevant. Still, it is your project not my, if you like it then you like it. I comment upon it not because I would like to encourage you do something different but because I would like to expose to you the side of the subject that might be not too obvious to you at this point. I do express my reasons, you might completely discard them  but if you feel that my contribution is irrelevant and pointless then it does not encourage me provide any of my comments for the next time.

The Cat


Hi Romy,

The reason I post here and pretty much nowhere else is because I like your sincerity, and directness. It would be for me a real shame if you did not post your comments as you see fit. We may never agree but then again I learn a lot from your comments and your site generally. But you do as you wish...

I honestly have not given that much consideration to the 'side view' and although I think I will like what's there, you may be right that in the long term, I may prefer to have made different choices. Time will tell and if there is one thing about me, it is that I am not in the business of lying to myself as my understanding and tastes evolve over time. As I think you imply, the choice of timber for the frame immediately imposes a number of constraints on its design and I have said from the beginning that I see several advantages in constructing the frame out of steel for all the reasons you give, because of its freedom in terms of bulk and for cost considerations. In my case, the look and feel of wood trumped all these 'disadvantages' of making use of wood.

I am nearly ready to move on to the next stage of this project, but it looks as if my other 'fibreglass' hornbuilder from Germany, who was supposed to deliver my four pairs of 550/400/250/200 Hz horns months ago, will not be able to deliver until Christmas, when I will myself not be in France to take delivery. But this is the subject for another thread.

Thanks

Best regards
Rakesh

12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JKnechtel
Posts 4
Joined on 12-07-2011

Post #: 31
Post ID: 17496
Reply to: 17495
LVFrame
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakesh,
Thanks for sharing the photos of your stands.   Actually that helps me a great deal in understanding his joint.  I am a bit of a woodworker and am a big fan of doweled joints.  I do not feel you will have to worry about creaking over the years.  Modern glues and dowel joints are quite durable.  Think of chairs made of wood that have constant stress on them as people lean back or tip the chairs while in them.  The good ones don't get wobbly over the years.  
Aesthetics is a personal thing, but I actually quite like the look of your stands.  I wasn't sure I would until I saw the big horn pictured on it.  As yes I like the side view from that photo.  
One of the things I like about your stand is that it is made of wood.  I personally can work with wood and even do joints like those pictured (looks like he used the domino system from Festool) but I no nothing of working with steel.  
I also had in mind to make something more temporary while I piece together, measure, experiment with building the whole system and then commit final design when I have a bit better idea of the complete system.
Josh
12-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 17499
Reply to: 17496
Potential issues
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakesh,

Two things I see that may or may not turn out to be an issue:

1) The relatively narrow stance of the front wheels; depending on how heavily you load the top of the frame, stability could be a bit on the limit when moving things around, especially on carpet. You will also very likely end up slightly shimming one side in order to get the mast completely vertical (you will be dealing with French floors...); jacking one side to shim it can be a bit tedious with a narrow stance.

2) The casters you selected are of the stem-mount variety; keep them tight! If they start backing out, the stem bends when pushing around the heavily loaded structure, again especially on carpeted floors, especially if there's a lot of padding. The bent stem then jams the steering function of the casters. Nevertheless, really good stem-mount casters will withstand this sort of abuse, in which case the caster mounting plate and mounting bore must also be up to the job. I wouldn't expect any catastrophic failures here but the plate might work loose over time. Above all, don't use the stems to level the frame; screw all stems in until the upper bearing races firmly contact the frame mounting surfaces; use shims between the wheels and the floor to make it all stand up straight.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 33
Post ID: 17500
Reply to: 17499
Miscast castors I hope these are not! But we will see soon enough.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Rakesh,

Two things I see that may or may not turn out to be an issue:

1) The relatively narrow stance of the front wheels; depending on how heavily you load the top of the frame, stability could be a bit on the limit when moving things around, especially on carpet. You will also very likely end up slightly shimming one side in order to get the mast completely vertical (you will be dealing with French floors...); jacking one side to shim it can be a bit tedious with a narrow stance.



Jessie,

This is also my worry and has been from the start. In the end, I decided to accept a compromise, that is keep the front span of the legs fairly narrow so that I would not have to see the castor wheels from the listening position. Obviously my hope is that the weight of the UB115 horn with a centre of mass away from the mast will act as a strong cantilever to the weight from above. Having lifted the horn today (it got delivered from a van by Russ and was transferred to a truck taking it to France in the same breath!), I realise it is not as heavy as I would have hoped, a mere 70kg or so. Still whilst moving the frame about with the horn placed on it, it felt fairly stable and easy to manoeuver. Russ in fact commented how misleading it was handling the combination as a light push would give it a fair amount of momentum.

The weight of the midrange horns as they are presently will not present a problem as the horns built for me by Hajo Steffen from Huertgenwald in Germany are made of fibreglass and are relatively light. I have been waiting for these horns to be delivered for nearly four months now and live in hope that this will happen before Christmas.

Eventually, I may well have heavier horns for the 'fundamental channel', maybe even a 180-200Hz made out of mdf or laminated birch ply, and then the narrow stance of the front cradle may well prove a problem.

I do have carpet in my front room in the UK and I know too well how much of a bane they are for most castor wheels available on the market but in my place in France I have had, thankfully, wooden flooring fitted earlier this year. How level the flooring is, in this centuries old, traditional alsatian house, I have not checked but will find out when I am there in a few days' time to accept delivery of the LVframe and UB115. The fitter, a maitre artisan of the 'Compagnons du Tour de France, a guild that dates back to the medieval ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France), who happens to be a pilot in his spare time, seems to have done a really good job:

Rakeshorns parquet IMG_4756.jpg
Parquet installation and detail of my lounge/listening room in Ribeauville, France

Rakeshorns parquet2 IMG_4755.jpg
Parquet installation again

Rakeshorns parquet3 IMG_4759.JPG
Parquet installation - labour of love following the contour of the irregular stone walls around the rooms, with no convenient skirting board

I am sort of hoping that by some miracle that this house that does have not a single pair of parallel walls to its name anywhere over its four floors has perfectly level floors! I guess that if I am not that fortunate, I will just have to deal with uneven flooring by following your suggestion, that is shimming rather than using the stem to level the LVFrame if needs be.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:


2) The casters you selected are of the stem-mount variety; keep them tight! If they start backing out, the stem bends when pushing around the heavily loaded structure, again especially on carpeted floors, especially if there's a lot of padding. The bent stem then jams the steering function of the casters. Nevertheless, really good stem-mount casters will withstand this sort of abuse, in which case the caster mounting plate and mounting bore must also be up to the job. I wouldn't expect any catastrophic failures here but the plate might work loose over time. Above all, don't use the stems to level the frame; screw all stems in until the upper bearing races firmly contact the frame mounting surfaces; use shims between the wheels and the floor to make it all stand up straight.

jd*


Again, I chose the castor wheels after pretty much driving poor Russ round the bend, discarding hundreds of contenders because they were too industrial looking whilst he discarded just as many because they were not of the stem variety ( I wanted to have adjustable castor wheels precisely in case I encountered uneven floors but I feel given what you have said above that this would be rather ill-advised). I also needed castor wheels which could accomodate a total load of 400kg (my rough figures were based on 100kg for UB115 including back chamber, 100 kg for LVframe, 20-30 kg for lower MF, 10kg for tweeter, 30-50 kg for upper MF, and potentially 30-50kg for Injection channel plus 50kg safety margin) divided over three castor wheels even though the LVFrame would have four wheels.

I do not know how good these castors by Tente are supposed to be, but given that they seem to be a fairly huge German manufacturer that specialises in just castors and wheels, I suspect they ought to be very good indeed. When I came across Tente, http://www.tente.com, that makes a large range of castor for very different applications and end-users, after going through their extensive catalogue, I was immediately sold on the 'Levina' range of castors by the German castor specialist, the Levina being a range intended for institutional customers, not because it has 'LV' in its name but because it avoided the 'industrial  look' of most heavy load bearing castors, with a load capacity of 100kg (200kg static) per castor (Levina 5370PJP125P30-11)

http://www.tente.co.uk/EN/cat0/am5113.html

http://www.tente.co.uk/EN/pdfpages/5113/4/0/Catalog6_Page70_EN_tente.co.uk.pdf


As things currently stand, I have the silver/grey versions which Russ ordered as he believed that they were only available in that colour (I had the castors' 'chassis' painted black. However, thanks to your query, I now realise that as on the picture I kept referring to that they are available in graphite/black which are the ones I will be ordering to replace the current ones (as I also use these castors in a smaller version the two matching coffee tables I had made out of Lignum Vitae, I need to order 16 of these!).

I think that these castors will work a treat on my wooden flooring, given their intended market, and the amount of thought that went in their design (they won a design award in 2009), but will wait until I know more to report on their performance. Given that the mounting for these is fairly standard, I may be able to change to other better performing castors if need be eventually. If in the end, I don't feel completely happy with their looks, I may also still replace them with some appropriately designed feet, that will go on the frames once their fixed location has been established, as Romy suggested somewhere I think.

Thanks for the advice on how to use and mount these castors. I certainly did not realise that levelling them using the stem was a poor idea although on reflection, I can see that you are probably right. I remember some furniture castors I had fitted to some air suspended Arcici racks years ago and how they would not last a few days of use even though they were recommended and supplied by the rack manufacturer. In the end, I asked the British distributor to find some other heavy duty castors, which he duly did and which I still use to this day on all four Arcici racks I use in my main system. So I understand the need to find the right castors and hope these Levina ones will be up to the job (especially once they are all replaced with the so much sexier graphite/black ones!).

Best regards
Rakesh
12-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,106
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 17505
Reply to: 17500
Excellent walls.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Regarding the pictures above

Whatever it is but the walls in that room are very for listening room. The wall like this of cause would not defeat any “unlucky” or “less successful” loudspeaker positioning in the room. Still with the wal like this is much more fun to deal with.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  Macondo Frame modification...  Parquet...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     46  460152  12-22-2006
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1552883  08-03-2007
  »  New  A new kid in the block: Sadurni Acoustics..  Axpona 2015...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  146340  08-22-2011
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  672694  07-29-2007
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  62568  05-18-2005
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