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  »  New  Antelope: might be an interesting DAC out there...  Antelope gnu?...  Didital Things  Forum     1  13315  06-17-2011
07-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 19663
Reply to: 19662
Antelope DACs
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
Have you heard these, Romy, or are you also impressed with the price/technology ratio?

Nope, I never heard them. They started a few years back making high quality clocks and now they spread themselves to DACs. I have no idea how bad or good they are but they are a good illustration of what today digital is: low price, half size. Even the industry former heavy players: Lavry, Weiss and many others do nowadays small and full-featured DACs. It is not to mention an army of small companies use to do USB-only DACs a few years back but now converted them into full future DACs.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 27
Post ID: 19664
Reply to: 19663
Antelope
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nonetheless, very impressive technology for the price. That's their top-of-the-line unit, supplied with their top-of-the-line offboard PSU, with very impressive-looking fit and finish, and all for just over CAN$4k. It also appears to have very refined clocking technology for the price, which I suppose is unsurprising given what you just said. This does seem to be the direction that things are going, at any rate; the other day I heard an Esoteric universal player feeding a credit-card sized, Musical Fidelity DAC, and it sounded quite respectable, all things considered - could have been a lot worse....

de Charlus
07-09-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 19665
Reply to: 19664
Igor Levin from Antelope
fiogf49gjkf0d
If look at YouTube Igor Levin and Antelope then you will see a lot of interviews with him about digital audio. He is kind of tricky and wily person in the way how he presents fact but it gives an idea about his thinking.  Again, it might have nothing to do with the way how the Antelope sound. Still, the way how he over-stress the importance and the “complexity” of oven-controlled crystal oscillator is very very fanny.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-09-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 29
Post ID: 19666
Reply to: 19665
Oven baked crystals
fiogf49gjkf0d
You know, the more I look at the parts and construction of these things, the more impressed I am, for the price. I do like the look of that rubidium master clock too, again at an impressive price. Unfortunately, the closet dealer at which I can audition them is in Montreal, but given the potential for a really good buy here, I'm beginning to think that it'll be worth the drive into Francophone territory. The thing is that I really wouldn't mind getting high(er) quality CD playback in my little system now, and since a decent quality universal transport plus such a DAC will not break the bank, I'm getting somewhat enthused about the idea. I've got the Emm Labs transport and DAC for the weekend, so I'll have something of alleged quality to compare it to as and when I go. As for "oven controlled" crystal oscillators, you have me at a disadvantage; perhaps I should qualify my earlier statement with "the parts that I can comprehend" look good for the price:-)

de Charlus
07-09-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 19667
Reply to: 19666
Free and public
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, the parts and construction of these things I do not think are relevant. We are not in position to evaluate this and the most important no one has idea how it relates to sound. Years back I asked my digital expert to evaluate the literature that Antelope put out at that time, then they did only master clocks and that was what I was looking for. They said that there is nothing wrong in what they do but the marketing spiels they take are targeted to dilatants. DACs are complicated, sometime it might be heavy-technology DAC that might sound good or bad and sometime it might be some exotic single-chip with output transformer that also sounds good or bad.  

What surprised me that the people who run the industry do not make any efforts to generalize the DACs. Pretend some kind of DAC convention somewhere in mid US with a great system setup and a limited referent tracks by all formats. Then you have a line of let say 30-50 DACs makers who supply the DACs for listening evaluation and the data is published. No BS, no pay entrance, no review, just a free and true completion and free public data. This is how industry shall be run. Why sprinters, tennisists, boxers and  car makers compete publicly   but DAC makers do not? There are zillion ways to make DACs to compete and make the objective results available but no one does it.

The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 241
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 31
Post ID: 19671
Reply to: 19667
An experiment
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, have you ever considered trying with your three dacs the following experiment. You take a digital file and runit through each of the dacs. You then take the output and feed it back to your adc. You then take the resultant redigitized file and calculate the root mean square difference with the original. Obviously this measure is sensitive to the adc but comparatively between the three dacs it is valid.
07-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 19672
Reply to: 19671
… and how to interpret the result?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 decoud wrote:
Romy, have you ever considered trying with your three dacs the following experiment. You take a digital file and runit through each of the dacs. You then take the output and feed it back to your adc. You then take the resultant redigitized file and calculate the root mean square difference with the original. Obviously this measure is sensitive to the adc but comparatively between the three dacs it is valid.

Yes, this experiment might be done. It is easy to do it and it is easy to recognize the difference. However, to but how would you interpret the meaning of the difference? My 3 DACs are different topologies. Bidat is faked up delta-sigma. I said faked-up is because it has different interpolation methodology for long and short signals. Still, being   kind of delta-sigma it out a lot of noise individual bits. Lavry Gold is true Multibit R2R converter.  Not only it is discreet Multibit but it is probably the most properly made Multibit ever, with individual reference resistors that are responsible for each bits thermo-stabilized and in constantly re-measured and interpolation re-calibrated. If you look at -100dB noise after the Lavry Gold you will see the perfect individual bits. Pacific Microsonics is also a true Multibit but they made a LOT of further processing in there as the output of Pacific does not look like Multibit but rather it looks like a very good delta-sigma. They will have quantifiable difference but I do not think that I will be able to associate those differences with the way how the DACs sound. It is not to mention that I use then for different purpose. With Bidat I play only CEC TLO. With Lavry I play my 2x and 4x DAW and with Pacific I play only 2x and 4x files that I record on Pacific.  I for sure could make the experiment you ask but what will I do with the result of that experiment?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 241
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 33
Post ID: 19673
Reply to: 19672
Fingerprints
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sure, this gives us no measure of sound, for sound is not reducible to any parameter. But it will tell us which of these DACs recreates the waveform closest to the original, i.e. which leaves the fewest fingerprints on what it does. It will not necessarily be the best DAC, of course, because it could be precisely the specific kind of contamination it introduces that for some hidden reason interacts favourably with the particular source and the particular system of playback. But if so, it would be very interesting, for it will be further evidence that fidelity to music is not necessarily fidelity to signal (though of course the RMS measure does not identify *which* part of the signal differs and it may be that the same RMS in different frequency bands (say) is better or worse). 
DAC manufacturers must have done this, and it is strange that you do not see anyone saying: our dac costs $1000 yet it injects less error in the waveform than unnamed competitor dac costing $5000...
07-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 34
Post ID: 19675
Reply to: 19673
DAC comparison
fiogf49gjkf0d
Such measurements give us ample information regarding the technical parameters of these machines, and if one is seeking to determine preeminence thus, then what you propose is not without merit. However, near-perfection in terms of measurable parameters does not always, as you allude to, equate to superiority of sound quality. As I said above, my friend purchased a TLOX with a DCS DAC, more upon reputation and technological brilliance than listening, and quite quickly found it almost unlistenably clinical and sterile - while still being impressive at certain audiophile tricks - and replaced it with a Kondo DAC, not exactly the last word in measurable accuracy or technological advancement, Nonetheless, in this case the anachronistic, "old-fashioned" Kondo unit triumphed easily in musical terms over the DCS unit commonly regarded as the "state of the art". So, whilst what you propose might be interesting in and of itself, so say nothing of diagnostic in the event of certain sonic peculiarities that it might take longer to isolate the cause of without employing such an expedient, it might be of limited value in the pursuit of satisfying musical reproduction. An interesting thought though.

de Charlus
07-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 19676
Reply to: 19666
An impressive DAC?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
You know, the more I look at the parts and construction of these things, the more impressed I am, for the price. I do like the look of that rubidium master clock too, again at an impressive price.

Yes, the Antelope looks impressive for the price but I am afraid that they just to make it impressive to attract attention. Do not forget that the company started from atomic clock company for audio, which is pure BS and the Antelope guys do know it. Now they do DACs around the $10 chip and with all little relevant literature around it. It sound very fishy to me but… again I have no idea how they sound. The irony is that today even $10 DAC might sound perfectly fine in context of what you, I or anybody else want. Anyhow, I did not make any efforts over the years to hear the Antelope.

Hm, interesting… if any DAC out there I would like to hear? I truly do not know….
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 36
Post ID: 19677
Reply to: 19621
Special dac for little money
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was tipped off to a dac over at the proaudio forum Gearslutz. It is usually difficult to gauge those users references as most are responsible for many of the bad habits in audio record engineering. One user who I seem to agree philosophically with regarding the audio industry and his extreme experience with the technical side of audio recommended to me an inexpensive dac. His comments have mostly been erased from the forums for some reason. It is a Ross Martin audio dac but particularly the Gearslutz version. I purchased it with the intention of an office system for casual listening but soon came to realise that something very special was happening. I brought it down to my main system for proper evaluation. I compared it to a Bidat fully updated and another 16 bit dac of comparable quality. The Ross Martin does some things better than both not to mention the capability to play high data feeds. If not for the Bidat's wonderful upperbass/lower midrange grainy density it would now be permanently in my main system. In a different acoustic system or with different transport I could see the Ross being a better choice.

I mention this dac to you because jumping from dac to dac at various listening sessions outside the home and in the home, over time you might find referencing each dac to each other might be difficult. This little inexpensive dac does very many things very well and it can travel with you to different auditions. It could be your ruler of sorts. I also would not be surprised if it did not better most everything out there. I have heard most. It is a little ugly, can run two or more transports (cd/16bit, higher res,...) and is very cheap. DON'T dismiss it because of price though.
07-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 37
Post ID: 19680
Reply to: 19677
Antelope/Emmlabs
fiogf49gjkf0d
Miab, thank you for the recommendation; I will endeavor to check it out. Romy, you have a salient point, although as I'm going to Montreal next week, I am going to audition the unit in question, since I might as well whilst I'm there, particularly as I have the Emmlabs pair in my system this weekend, and thus have something modern to compare it to. Of course, the Emmlabs is the much-vaunted unit of the two, but a polarizing one at that, so we will see; I shall report on it after the weekend, and the Antelope next week. That said, the Antelope will be a shop audition, most likely with better components than my own but less well set up/positioned, whilst the Emmlabs is today going into my own system; it will be an interesting comparison.

de Charlus
07-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 19681
Reply to: 19680
Hmmmmm.....
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
Miab, thank you for the recommendation; I will endeavor to check it out. Romy, you have a salient point, although as I'm going to Montreal next week, I am going to audition the unit in question, since I might as well whilst I'm there, particularly as I have the Emmlabs pair in my system this weekend, and thus have something modern to compare it to. Of course, the Emmlabs is the much-vaunted unit of the two, but a polarizing one at that, so we will see; I shall report on it after the weekend, and the Antelope next week. That said, the Antelope will be a shop audition, most likely with better components than my own but less well set up/positioned, whilst the Emmlabs is today going into my own system; it will be an interesting comparison.
I wonder.... With all your additions and in context of different systems that you do not know.... What methodology will you be using to evaluate the cons and pros of the DACs? I mean you would go for better sound, which is fine, but how would you know that better or worst sound within the systems that you will be listening will come from DAC  and not from 64638 other reasons? I do not mean to be difficult  but I just feel that it might not be too sensible. Also, and sorry if it sound like a too personal question: what CD/s you will be using to play on those new DACs?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 39
Post ID: 19686
Reply to: 19681
Emmlabs weekend
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Well, in the course of a weekend I typically listen to a lot of music, but there are a few favorite CDs that I like to use when trying to evaluate things:

Piano Music of Chopin, Brahms & Prokofiev, Lincoln Mayorga, Sheffield Lab SL505
The Leinsdorf Sessions: Erich Leinsdorf Centennial, Sheffield Labs SL10043-52
Debussy Preludes Books 1 & 2 Joan Rowland, Sheffield Labs SL10087
Mozart Requiem, Herreweghe, Harmonia Mundi, HMG901620
J.S.Bach Orchestral Suites 1-4, Harmonia Mundi, HMG501578.79
Bruckner No.8 v. Karajan Weiner Philharmonica DG427611
Bruckner No.7 v. Karajan Weiner Philharmonica DG439.037
Tchaikovsky No.6 Pathetique Bernstein NY Philharmonic DG419 604-2
Cello Suites 1-6 J.S. Bach Rostropovich EMI Classics 55365/4
J.S. Bach Great Organ Works, Peter Hurford, Decca 443 485-2

As for any other methodology, I borrowed my acquaintance's DAC - the effects of which I am quite familiar with in combination with my Marantz CD5004 - in order to have some point of comparison with the Emmlabs. This Audio Aero La Fontaine unit I used for about half a day in order to re-accustom myself to the effect of a halfway decent, if slightly saccharine-sounding DAC, upon my CD player. That done, I swapped in the (allegedly very superior) Emmlabs DAC for the majority of the rest of my listening period, before finally swapping in the Emmlabs transport for a few hours at the end. Hardly scientific, but it yielded some interesting results nonetheless.

As I said before, I'm rather lacking in audiophile argot, but I will do my best to describe my findings. These two DACS are rather polar, in fact, as the Audio Aero isn't exactly the last word in detail, but does possess a sweet musicality that I find quite compelling; there is a great improvement in transient decay and soundstaging over the base CD player - not surprising, I suppose, given that it is quite old - and the sense of space between instrumentalists is more evident in chamber music in particular. There is a palpable warmth, particularly in strings and woodwind, that is not there without the DAC, and whether or not this is detail or coloration, I find it pleasant. Vocals, too, were greatly improved, particularly on a Diana Krall CD I like.

As for the Emmlabs DAC in conjunction with my CD player, it's a little odd, but I can find precious little fault with any single aspect of the presentation, and yet I preferred the former DAC. The soundstage was broader, deeper and slightly better defined, something particularly evident on orchestral works. There was without question more detail, transients were more sustained, and yet there was a slightly clinical aspect to the presentation that remained throughout genres. Curiously, I cannot think of an aspect of the Audio Aero's presentation that was notably "better" than the Emmlabs, yet as a whole I found the latter, at least in conjunction with my Cd player, less compelling.

Finally I swapped in the Emmlabs transport, which in conjunction with the DAC seemed to actually compound the sensation of sterility that was noticeable, albeit subtle, when the ye olde Marantz was in place. Again, I cannot fault these units for extraction of detail, soundstaging and/or any other audiophile tricks that I can think of, yet I found a subtle lack of emotive engagement even in pieces that I love as much as the Mozart requiem. Very curious. Suspecting that the transport was more or less jitter-free and extracting more of less as much detail as it was possible to extract from CDs, I swapped in the Audio Aero DAC, and voila; the combination of great detail, stability etc that the transport brought to proceedings when in combination with the sweetness of the Audio Aero - which could be coloration, but it was the most satisfying Cd presentation I've heard in my system by some distance - seemed as fulfilling in terms of musicality as I can imagine CD replay in my system to be.

This is not an outcome that actually helps me much in the immediate, since as you, Romy, pointed out, it will be quite some time until my "big" system is constructed and firing on all cylinders; I was, however, hoping that spending a few thousand dollars on a DAC would greatly improve CD playback in the meantime, but unless I'm permitted to tout my old Marantz down to Montreal - not an unreasonable request, I would have thought - the Antelope audition that I've arranged for during my visit to Montreal would be of academic interest only, and even if I can bring my CD player, who knows what part of an unfamiliar system will be imparting what? This is the problem with certain, relatively obscure but interesting components only being available for audition here and there, but if it turns out that I like what I hear in Montreal, perhaps I will be able to work something out with the dealer in question. After all, from what I've read these units need 500+ hours of burn-in to perform at their optimum; if I'm able to put a deposit down and keep it for a few weeks, this is something that I may be able to achieve - otherwise, not. Since this long burn-in period seems to be commonly understood, it's hard to imagine the dealer not being aware of it, so the demo unit may already be fine, but all this remains to be seen.

de Charlus
07-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 19687
Reply to: 19686
Care to explore my route?
fiogf49gjkf0d
It sound like the Emmlabs I heard before. A few things. I am not familiar with Marantz CD5004 but I am pretty sure that it is not TL0, in fact nothing most likely is. If you use TL0 then it will be very different result as TL0 push a LOT of more out in each quantifiable sonic aspect. If I were you then I would make selection of DAC after you get your select transport, would it be TL0 or not. If you end up with TL0 then you might explore the rite that I took. You are in Canada and John Right who dose Bidats nowadays somewhere in Canada as well. Something is very interesting going on with TL0/Bidat combination. I do not know if I use Bidat with other transports however….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 41
Post ID: 19688
Reply to: 19687
Marantz & Bidat
fiogf49gjkf0d
  • The "Super Mod"
    The Bidat was originally designed with 3 separate crystal-based voltage controlled oscillators. This was unique because we had the crystals specially made to be 'pull-able' around the sample rates of 33, 44.1 and 48 KHz. This scheme worked well only if the signal coming from the digital source was within the S/PDIF spec. In real life, many sources are not. The "super-mod" gets rid of these crystals and replaces the front-end PLL with another Meitner innovation - one that allows the Bidat to track the input even if the digital source is off-spec. The super mod is an extensive upgrade. In addition to the above, it includes changes to the power supply, power inlet, digital front-end and analog outputs. The cost of this update is $250.00 USD.

  • The Bidat Switching Power Supply
    This update is no longer available.
  • The Bidat "Plus" Update
    This is it! This is the update that puts the Bidat back on top, if it ever slipped. This update will make your Bidat the best sounding converter on the planet. The analog stage has been revised as has the power supply decoupling and the lock detection circuitry. More importantly, the DAC chip is modified to run in a much more linear fashion with lower distortion. The result is a breath taking experience. The bass rolls out at you now with a tremendous sense of foundation. The sound stage is absolutely life like and the subtle inner detail is beyond description.


  • Indeed, John Wright is now based in Calgary, and offers updates for Museatex, Meitner and Melios units. This is definitely an interesting notion, to say nothing of being affordable.

    The Marantz is just a solid-sounding unit that produced very decent sound in its day and did nothing overly wrong. As I said before, at the time I wasn't exactly overwhelmed with the possibilities of audio, and bought an affordable system that offered acceptable "hi-fi" sound; as a transport, it can still surprise when in combination with an appropriate DAC. Indeed, it continues to surprise me how little CD replay has progressed in the meantime, although there have been a few exceptions to the principle. The notion of auditioning a universal player, given that I'm unfamiliar with any particular SACDs or HDCDs, is disarming to say the least; the very notion makes me so tired that I'd almost rather take a recommendation from someone whose opinion merits respect, and which plays Redbook Cds to a satisfactory standard, since I do not see myself plunging into these media wholesale unless things change profoundly, which they will not.

    de Charlus
    07-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
    ArmAlex
    Iran
    Posts 81
    Joined on 02-15-2009

    Post #: 42
    Post ID: 19692
    Reply to: 19688
    Transport+DAC
    fiogf49gjkf0d
    Dear de charlus,I think AMR CD77 is a valid candidate for you. I haven't heard this CD player but I own AMR PH77 phono which is special. Romy knows it's designer very well you can ask his idea also.Regards,Armen
    07-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
    de charlus
    Posts 94
    Joined on 06-11-2013

    Post #: 43
    Post ID: 19694
    Reply to: 19692
    AMR & Museatex
    fiogf49gjkf0d
    Thank you. This is something that I can look into locally, so that's great. Romy, does your Bidat have the upgrades that John Wright speaks of above, or is it virgin, so to speak? If the latter, do you find such claims - with upgrades, "the best DAC on the market" - to be plausible? Obviously I will have to take  recommendation from someone whose opinion merits respect and go with that, since I will have to find the Museatex on Ebay or somesuch, and then send it for upgrades. I'd be willing to do this, sight unseen, since it represents so small a financial outlay for a unit that has garnered a great deal of respect, and it would represent an immediate improvement upon my base Marantz, perhaps even going into my "big" system beside the TLOX, or something similar.

    de Charlus.
    07-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
    Amir
    Iran Tehran
    Posts 158
    Joined on 02-11-2009

    Post #: 44
    Post ID: 24964
    Reply to: 19647
    CEC new DAC DA0 3.0
     Stitch wrote:
    Based on that marketing I would say, digital playback is now 25x better than live. Minimum.


    :-)))
    New CEC DAC DA0-3.0 is in market , It will be connected to TL0-3.0 transport and it uses r-2r network. http://www.cec-web.co.jp/service/download/document/catalog/DA0_ENG_Catalog_w.pdf

    did you heard it?
    08-26-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
    dedobot
    Posts 8
    Joined on 08-25-2018

    Post #: 45
    Post ID: 25056
    Reply to: 24964
    Interesting..
     Amir wrote:
     Stitch wrote:
    Based on that marketing I would say, digital playback is now 25x better than live. Minimum.


    :-)))
    New CEC DAC DA0-3.0 is in market , It will be connected to TL0-3.0 transport and it uses r-2r network. http://www.cec-web.co.jp/service/download/document/catalog/DA0_ENG_Catalog_w.pdf

    did you heard it?

    Good. My 100 USD Fiio DAP use this groundbreaking tech  Smile. Interesting approach to connect stand alone appliances indeed and that's all. 
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