| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time. (456 posts, 22 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 17 of 19 (456 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 15 16 17 18 19 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  230819  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  59083  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  190327  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1097837  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1823307  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  836990  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1464820  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  The ULF amp Itch....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     146  922228  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  49389  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12073  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  131492  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11474  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  82789  06-13-2011
11-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 401
Post ID: 14891
Reply to: 14890
Blurred transients?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Are there any signs for worsened transient response of your midbass channel due to the sharp electrical filtering?



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
11-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 402
Post ID: 14892
Reply to: 14891
Taking turns out of coils in search of prodigious balance
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
Are there any signs for worsened transient response of your midbass channel due to the sharp electrical filtering?
Nothing that I note. The transient response of your midbass channel is a bit tricky thing as the way how the midbass is blended and calibrated as now make it very difficult to feel the midbass itself. Remarkably it feels that all midbass noted are coming from upperbass channel and I do feel that midbass transient are dictated by upperbass and lower midrange. Listening the midbass channel itself is very interesting – it is not musical in a way how my upperbass is. The sound of midbass channel is pretty much the sound of artifacts. combined with the rest of the system it doe the right mix of actions.
BTW, I need to point out that the way I implemented the midbass crossover make sound less likely to experience the negative effects of sharp electrical filtering.  My filter is fixed second order filter in the amp input. The filter is written against fixed impedance and made as close as possible in this topology to Bessel curve, presuming the minimal phase distortion. Then, after the amp there is a first order filter, that is by nature is Bessel with minimal phase distortion. What is important that the first filter does not see the second filter, so any ringing associated with high electrical filtering are not applicable.
In the very best world I would put 1st order before the amp, the second 1st order between the stages of the amps and then the last 1st order in the speaker level. This I would decouple each stage of filtration. How much practical impact it would have is very hard to say. Who said that I need a perfect text-book roll off characteristic for a given amount of dBs per octave? I need a properly sounding midbass channel, this is more important than to know that I have 18dB/octave at minus 6dB and 14dB/octave at minus 15dB….

Anyhow, the bigger thing to me now is to find a very prodigious balance between the feelings of midbass time mis-alignment and the longetivety of the midbass decay. What I observe is that making the midbass tail a bit longer I might mask out to a degree the fact that midbass leading wave is delayed. I do cruse around a good configuration but I did not hit the perfect one yet and did not lock it yet. I think it will be somewhere between 130Hz and 155Hz of the second filters. I would like it to be set absolutely right, in the middle of any type of music and any type of recordings. I am absolutely confident that I will be able to do it but it takes time to listen and the time to take the turns out of those coils… 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 25
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 403
Post ID: 14896
Reply to: 14892
One has to consider the roll-off charcacteristic of the horn's themselves
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would worry that there could be an interaction between your electrical filters and the filter formed by the horns themselves.

I, too, like to trust my ears and I would ten to trust yours more than mine but nonetheless you have created quite a complicated filter with the mid-bass horn.  Akin to several Doctors giving a patient  drugs without considering how they will interact with what the other fellow has prescribed.

My instinct is to simplify the chain of filters and see what happens. 

I respect your search for perfection but sometimes only compromise is possible.

11-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 404
Post ID: 14897
Reply to: 14896
Perfections and compromises are bogus notions.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rickmcinnis wrote:
I would worry that there could be an interaction between your electrical filters and the filter formed by the horns themselves.

I, too, like to trust my ears and I would ten to trust yours more than mine but nonetheless you have created quite a complicated filter with the mid-bass horn.  Akin to several Doctors giving a patient  drugs without considering how they will interact with what the other fellow has prescribed.

My instinct is to simplify the chain of filters and see what happens. 

I respect your search for perfection but sometimes only compromise is possible.

Rick, what are you talking about? I do not see any “search for perfection” on my side. I have perhaps 7 (!!!) differents filters that are in action and all that I would like to do it to get a proper dosage of LF after all those filters engaged. I do not think that I do something special or extraordinary asking my midbass horn to produce Sound that I want it to produce instead of what it “happened produce”. I can only assure you that it has very much different sound coal to what it he what you was here and it has even very different sound compare to what it was this weekend. Learning to use he such a horn is a mutual dedication – I learn what option and characters of sound the horn offers and I correct it in a why how I find it necessary. There is not a lot of difference between making a playback to sound in a specific manner and to conduct an orchestra. The methods of expressivity are different but the objectives and the ideas are very much the same.

So, the point is of perfection vs. compromise is absolutely invalid in my view. There is no “perfection” and there is no “compromise”. There is only an interest to process and interest in results. A playing placing with a large 7-chenals inhalation in a new room and making it to sound from a random cacophony to a well lubricated listing instrument is superbly educational, fascinating and I have tremendous interest in it. I truly do not think about perfections or compromise. I see what it does, compare it with what I want it to do and see what I might do in order to navigate sound where I would like it to be. Nothing more and nothing less.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 25
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 405
Post ID: 14898
Reply to: 14897
Semantics and other stories
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

I know you know there is no such thing as perfection.

My favorite quote is from S. Dali who warned, "never fear perfection, you won't achieve it".  But in that statement are, at least, two messages.

Nothing wrong in striving for perfection.  Being disappointed when you do not achieve it is insane.  OK, you know perfection is not possible.  Am I supposed to be surprised at that?  Of course not. 

Compromise is going to be what you deal with when there are seven filters in a system to my way of thinking.  If no compromise was required neither would seven filters be needed.  

I am the last person who would attempt to lecture you on how to use horns.  I would think my only place would be in reminding you of things you may have misplaced in your memory.

I know where your system is is far away from what I heard, not to say what I heard was mediocre.  That has nothing to do with my comments.  Let me assure you my ear/brain is not quick enough to be able to hear strangeness in a system I am unfamiliar with in an hour's audition.  Being lucky enough to have heard what I heard has nothing to do with my comments.  I would greatly enjoy getting to hear the system evolve bu that is not possible for me.

Ever since I started my horn adventure I have heard and read many times that one has to be careful with crossover slopes because of how they can interact with the slopes imposed by the horns themselves.  You certainly know more about filters than I, I assume.  So you know that they can interact.  Just look at the formulas for the various "shapes" and how they place the frequencies (duh).  Of course, you have gone for a shape beyond the gentle BESSEL.  But, are you considering what the horn's themselves are adding to the mix.  The horn imposes a third order filter (I hope I am getting that right) at its cut-off.  How this is synthesized with your filters sprinkled through the chain is open to speculation. 

I know you are careful in the design of your horns and you use them well within their design limits.  This should preclude the concerns I am expressing BUT who knows?  Maybe the horn's own filters could still "beat" back into their specific duty range? 

I have no genuine advice to give other than my instinct that you might have too much filter.  I believe in using the ears but maybe with this level of complexity it might be useful to measure it with one of those fourier analyzers just to see if there is something going on.

My speaking of compromise meant that, simply, you might have to settle for something that isn't exactly as you want it to be.  It could be that what you want the system to do is not possible?  It can happen.

If you can find the proper dosage for each of those filters I will be the first to congratulate you. Do I doubt you have the tenacity to do it?  NO.

My main point was that maybe you have too many filters.  I guess I should have just said that but you can see I can be verbose!

Cordially,


11-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 406
Post ID: 14924
Reply to: 14890
The 2dB battle….
fiogf49gjkf0d
Since I changed the LF transformer and increase the output stage loading I did address the problem with power limit. It looks like now the midbass does not clip at very high power and has some headroom – that is good. I however not absolutely comfortable about the new midbass configuration. The extras lording gave me some extra harmonics that I killed by the third filter. I also use some acoustic filtering at my triangular wall – something that you guys do not know yet but I will post the pictures as explanation later on in “my new room thread”.  Still, I have extra 2 dB of gain in midbass and that set my former last week absolutely perfect midbass configuration to be not as good as I wish.

Thos extra 2dB is a pain in ass. It is simple to kill it by divider in midbass driver stage, this would even add some power to the channel. However, I do not like to attenuate the LF and I asked myself why do not increase the rest of the channels for 2 dB, I do have this option. The irony is that the attenuation of bass for 2 dB is not the same as jacking up the rest of the rest of the channels for the same amount. It shall not be so. also, the almost transition slop use of my midbass do give some benefits – like an ability to virtually decompress some recordings and to hold the bass level properly at wider volume level.

Anyhow, I do not have my piece for now at what level I will be locking the midbass. I will be looking at it over the weekend.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 407
Post ID: 14935
Reply to: 14924
Ok, it is done.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, I have finished to setup the midbass horns and have fond a very good configuration with new transformer. The only issue remains is that now that I drive the out stage of midbass at 42W of pate dissipation – this is not a lot. I would like to driver it at 55W but it would require rolling off approximately 1dB in midbass.  I guess I will do it what next time will open the amps.  All problems of configuration n and integration has been resolve. The midbass horns are not newcomers in my playback anymore but very much it’s organic part. Later on I will post some new observation about the midbass horns sound and about the integration result.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 408
Post ID: 14964
Reply to: 14935
Large vs. small.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Was listening today from Radio Netherlands the Rotterdam Philharmonic Mahler’s  9 symphony, Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting. I very much did not get it from the beginning but the last two movements they grew up and it was very interesting. What I also noted is that LARGE sound that I have in this room with this midbass horns do helps a lot with this music. What is also very remarkable that the playback might present sound INSANELY LARGE if it need to be and at the same time it might be very “small” if music is called upon it. I do not know why it is but it is here.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 409
Post ID: 14981
Reply to: 14935
Behind-Above midbass horn – the presentation behavior
fiogf49gjkf0d

This is a very important question as since very beginning of the projects it was questionable if I would be able to get away with the back/top firing position of my midbass horn. So, as now, when the midbass horn project is over and horns fully integrated into Macondo and into the room, does the midbass horns indicate themselves as horns are in the “wrong” location? Was I able to hide that location of the horns by my integration techniques? Was it a mistake to plan the midbass horns at the Behind-Above location as I did? The reason I would like to cover these questions is because I feel that the content of this thread is in a way a good blueprint for somebody who would like to follow my steps and built a similar horns in your own house. Do not take my “steps” too literally. There are many rooms out there with many options to position and variance of horns at the “wrong” locations.  My positioning of the midbass horns is just one of the options, there are many others. So, without generalizing too much I would like to cover my view on general atypical horn positioning and  about my behind-above in particular.

It is my feeling that there is absolutely nothing that can beat presentation and imaging of a properly positioned midbass horn or perfect room setup with midbass horn. In the perfect scenario the midbass would sit on the sides of MF Island. I have depicted it a few months back:

Perfect_room.JPG

I do not have this option and my objectives did not even comply with this schema. May objectives were to make the midbass horn INVISIBLE IN THE ROOM and TIME ALIGNED. I absolutely successfully addressed my adjective; do I pay any toll for it by sonic problem related to my midbass horn imaging? Yes and now, and to evaluate it a bit complicated.

Under normal circumstances, sitting in my home and listening music there is absolutely no indication that there is a pair of 42Hz horns in the attic. The sound is full and coming very much from Macondo; in fact it is almost like a freak show with 115hz horns look like reproduce the whole bass spectra. When most of the LF events sharpen then bass localizes as it come from upperbass horn. This part of very, very, truly very good. However, there are some harmonic sequences (and only in classical repertoire) where sound coming ONLY from midbass and there is no sound from other channels. During those moments the midbass horns do indicate themes. Two moments however need to be considered to understand it correctly. The moments where no sound coming from Macondo are VERY seldom.  Also during those momants the horn does not localize behind me but rather Behind-Above, where 70-80% come to Above. The sound does not localize Behind-Above or better to say Behind-Above-Above-Above but rather sound moved a bit up. If MF move up then we have imaging shift –it is very visible and annoying. When however the lower end a move a bit up it is much less attracts attention as there is no focusing point. The sound instead of moving up just begins to fill the room from ceiling – with some music it creates very good effect.

All of it is very hard to delegate in description. Do not forget that miss- integration of my midbass horn is something that I very deliberate is trying to learn to recognize and to acknowledge. So I am much peakier and more anal then an average listener. There is a huge possibility that an average listener would not even recognize the difference. Sometimes I can play 5-6 CDs before I get a feeling that Behind-Above micro-event let itself to be heard. So, it is not so much in face and the Behind-Above is very non-invasive event what it take place.

What can I recommend to the people who are considering the similar deals on Attic and afraid that the Behind-Above positioning would be too critical? Well, invest in your education, fry over to my place and see how the Behind-Above works. I will be demonstrating to you the worst of the Behind-Above character and you will be able to make your own evaluation if it worth for you to be concerned.

My personal feels is that Behind-Above character works fine and evaluating all pluses and minuses that I know now I would still go for exactly what I did. Yes, some of the imaging moments that I was able to get in my old room are not available in my new room. I do not related it to Behind-Above location of my midbass, it also, not the end of my journey and I might further up find ways to shape up the imaging.  In the end I feel that Behind-Above location was a success. There are some adverse moments but they would be in ANY location of the midbass. Even if I go for the perfect room setup depicted above then the horns would have MUCH MORE reflections caught into the mouth with all negative consequences to Sound. One of the greatest thing of my Behind-Above location is that the horn is loaded to practically to open air, have no reflections and therefore it decays very softly. The advantage to sound is so huge that in my view it overrides any other advantages of disadvantages. This is my personal view and I built my horn for my personal use. I do clearly see the advantages and disadvantages of the Behind-Above idea and I do feel that with good sensibility the Behind-Above location my be very much well performing.

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 410
Post ID: 15026
Reply to: 14935
Modesty
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, if you have a midbass horn that more or less properly built then modesty and humility   of the horn setup is the key ingredient of the horn sound. When I have my old transformer 11:1 then I had the midbass horns calibrated so perfectly that you can tune a large symphonic orchestra by it sound. It was spectacularly stop-on setting with any type of music if played it never was too much or to little – it was perfection that might be taught in the hi-fi schools if they exists.

But I did not have power and I went for 9:1. Since then I keep playing the modesty games, constantly rolling off .25dB. The initial 1.6dB drop was implemented of cause but then running the attenuation back and forth I do not have that perfection that I had before. After long thinking I desired to move the crossover point of the first line level filter from 107Hz to 100Hz and drop another .5dB.  I mean I will drop 1.5dB on attenuation but will switch the out tube for +1 by plate dissipation, driving the 6C33C at 55W. I think that will do the trick as driving plate hotter I will get Rp down and will closer harmonically to 11:1 my setting. The most important I will get my power back. Horn or no horn but to drive the 15” driver from 6C33C I do what to have some spare power.  With absence of neighbors I sometime drive playback VERY hard and I would like it to be absolutely not restricted by power. On 6C33C the divergence between 45W and 55W is 1dB by gain, so I will burn in my input voltage divider….

CatAndIceScream.jpg

Meanwhile I exercise the most distinctive quality of myself – modesty, by finding the most modest operation point for my midbass horn. I have to note that it is very lucrative and attractive idea to make it to shine from hi-fi perspective but I keep repeating to myself that modesty is a fucking virtue.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 411
Post ID: 15142
Reply to: 15026
Midbass bloating - the weather is clearing up…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
When I have my old transformer 11:1 then I had the midbass horns calibrated so perfectly that you can tune a large symphonic orchestra by it sound. It was spectacularly stop-on setting with any type of music if played it never was too much or too little – it was perfection that might be taught in the hi-fi schools if they exists. But I did not have power and I went for 9:1. Since then I keep playing the modesty games, constantly rolling off .25dB….
As I said I had some difficulty to get the proper midbass balance. With new transformer seating it looks like I need to roll off midbass but by rolling off midbass I just loosing the midbass volume without losing the negative quality of midbass. This slight midbass bloating that I never had with my old transformer I was trying to get rid by dropping low-pass crossover point. I still was not able to get rid of the midbass very unpleasant swell. I was even blaming the transformer.

The last night I have discovered that my entire problem was with very characteristic midbass sound that new PP2000 produce. All that it took for me juts to switch he PP2000 to run from butter and I had my VERY nice and very clean midbass back. In fact I think that I can add 1dB of THAT midbass and it will be absolutely perfect.  Running the PP2000 from power lines imidetaly injects into midbass some very ugly bloating and midbass sound like it comes from a large empty barrel – very unpleasant. I am kind of pissed that I waste so much time trying to deal with it by crossovering and volumes and did not get the it was a damage from the new PP2000.

What it boils down is that until PurePower fix the new PP2000 I pretty much can’t not finish the system setup. The PP2000 runs from buttery very short time and runs from buttery has no other use then just short testing…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 412
Post ID: 15446
Reply to: 13597
Here is where Melquiades pays off.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Since I got my stable and good quality electricity back I recalibrated my bass horn. Again, I set it up with very precisely and absolutely without any measurements, juts by ear, to sound exactly how I want it to sound. This is in a way my crown jewel accomplishment as the way how my midbass horn sound how is in my view an absolutely a new word in midbass horns implementations. I am not trying to suck my own dick, I just admit the fact the that way how my midbass channel sound I did not hear anywhere sound, regardless if it was horn or not.

My playback feels like has no midbass. There is absolutely no midbass impressiveness of any kind, in fact it more like a deficiency of midbass. Then, suddenly what music calls upon midbass notes of midbass harmonics then it unexpectedly show up from nowhere like a ghost and then evaporates to nowhere. There is no sight of any “horn” or “not horn”  there is no question about fidelity of this midbass – it just so organically indispensable from the sound of the whole  room that it truly fantastic.

I do not know what made the midbass sound so great – is it horn? Is it dynamics? Is it driver?  But I do know that this super precisely calibration of this midbass was possible because the way how the Melquiades was build.  The Melquiades’ bass channel is highly overbuilt. The 1.5A power transformer, half ampere input chokes; 30.000uF in the filtering caps, the output transformer is gaped at 450mA with inductance enough to do 7.5Hz at FULL power. I drive my 6C18C (similar to 6C33C) at 195V and I pretty much was setting the gain of my midbass channel by adjusting current of my 6C18C. From 35W to 50W at plate I have ~ 1.5dB difference and perhaps 100R or output impedance. In the very end I locked everything at 195V and 285mA, that give 55,6W on plate. I absolutely love the result and I intend do not proceed with any faster core bass transformer.

With this result I officially declared the midbass project is over. I truly gratified with result and I am not kidding: the result did extend my vision of what is possible. I do have my ego trip about the fact that it was done by me as no one in the world knows that it was done by my carpenter.

CatAndDogs.jpg

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 413
Post ID: 15506
Reply to: 13597
Environmental inspection.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yesterday I performed the environmental inspection of the section of my attic that host the midbass horn. The section of the attic is well isolated from the rest of the attic. I have some temperature and humidity sensors in there, In addition I bought a very cool remote infrared thermometer that allow me to measure temperature on the different parts of the horn stating on the floor.

Like anybody else’s in New England my house is burden under at least foot of solid compressed snow – we had 42 inched during January and in 2 day another 15” will be coming. The snow on the roof is not just a snow but after a few days of melting it is solid block of ice and I have 9-10 feet long icycles. It is mess but I guess it is what it is in New England.  The alternative is to live in Florida and to have too many still alive republicans around…

So, I went to attic and inspected all the things around the horn. To my absolute satisfaction the space around the horn dose wonderfully. There is no dampness of any kind and humidity in there ~5-10% lower then at the rest of the attic. I did not open the back chambers of the horn. Next time I will go there I will do it and my intention is to install a remote reading sensor in one of the back chambers.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 414
Post ID: 15812
Reply to: 14664
Help me to fuck up my midbass horns!
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The subject of midbass nasal sound is very interesting. In addition to all OTHER aspects that might lead to midbass honk I would like to note that there is one that is in my view greatly overlooked – the precision of response. What I said that my new midbass horn has absolutely no honk then it does not mean that it has no nasal artifact under any condition. If I drive the horn in wrong frequency range and at worn volume then it will have all possible problem. What I do say is that when I very fine tune the horn in respect to my other channel and make the horn to operate in the mode that I would call “proper balance”, then the horn does not exposit any sights of nasal tone. I kind of even miss this very fine honk as I do like it. Live sound has it as well, and a very fine touch of it from horn is something that I like. My horn does not have it or perhaps I need to drive it a .25dB harder somewhere, I just do not know at this point where. His is what I am learning nowadays.
It is in a way ridicules. For years people who build of use horn fight with honk in horn, particularly in midbass-upperbass-lowerMF horns. I built my midbass horns and it has no honk, I mean no honk ever of any kind. Still, I am not content. As I wrote before I do look forward to get SOME very deliberate and very specific honk.
My midbassis insultingly neutral, it has fantastic dynamic, fantastic behavior at super high and super low levels, free from any coloration, superb transients, very good discriminates color and set at very proper level in the room. Everything is great but at time I feel that it is too horn-neutral, not tone-sterile but horn-neutral. It sounds like very good quality direct radiator with 109dB sensitivity driven by 1kW amplifier. What I would like to do however is to make my midbass horn to have a very slight pouch of horn honk. Yes, I am taking about a injection to very deliberate non-neutrality and very premeditated coloration.  Sure I will not my horn to have honky sound, we are taking about a degree. I know exactly what I would like to distort in the sound of my horn and what result I would like to accomplish, I just have no idea HOW to do it.

Perhaps the bypassing or moderating the high-pass filters would so it, or modification of the throat’s profile or injection of things into mouth, or use some kind of reentry reflectors would do it… I have many ideas but I do not want to go and to try them, not to say the many of them will modify the sound of the horn to higher degree then produce honk. I do not want to change the sound of the horns; I juts wan to add some very very very minor honk, not any honk but  good honk…

Did anybody research the subject of deliberate good horn sound?

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-21-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 415
Post ID: 15814
Reply to: 15812
My “radar of sensations” about the “good honk”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is in a way ridicules. For years people who build of use horn fight with honk in horn, particularly in midbass-upperbass-lowerMF horns. I built my midbass horns and it has no honk, I mean no honk ever of any kind. Still, I am not content. As I wrote before I do look forward to get SOME very deliberate and very specific honk.
My midbassis insultingly neutral, it has fantastic dynamic, fantastic behavior at super high and super low levels, free from any coloration, superb transients, very good discriminates color and set at very proper level in the room. Everything is great but at time I feel that it is too horn-neutral, not tone-sterile but horn-neutral. It sounds like very good quality direct radiator with 109dB sensitivity driven by 1kW amplifier. What I would like to do however is to make my midbass horn to have a very slight pouch of horn honk. Yes, I am taking about a injection to very deliberate non-neutrality and very premeditated coloration.  Sure I will not my horn to have honky sound, we are taking about a degree. I know exactly what I would like to distort in the sound of my horn and what result I would like to accomplish, I just have no idea HOW to do it.

Perhaps the bypassing or moderating the high-pass filters would so it, or modification of the throat’s profile or injection of things into mouth, or use some kind of reentry reflectors would do it… I have many ideas but I do not want to go and to try them, not to say the many of them will modify the sound of the horn to higher degree then produce honk. I do not want to change the sound of the horns; I juts wan to add some very very very minor honk, not any honk but  good honk…

Did anybody research the subject of deliberate good horn sound?

I was thinking and it came to me that my feel that I would like to experiment with “good honk” was initial purely conceptual, then it disappear from my radar of sensations and then re-appeared very recently when I began to use my final version of ULF channels. I did not listen my playback since I cleaned it up in my head but from what I remember I did not have any inducement to add “good honk” to sound what I used my playback with just midbass horns at the bottom. So, it is highly possible that that “good honk” is a properly that I need to ad to not to my midbass horn but to my ULF channel.

If it so then I am not very comfortable with idea that when I think about ULF I think about sound. It shall not be this way. From a different perspective what is “good honk”? The “good honk” is not a honk per say but rather a very special harmonic softness that certainly would not hurt my ULF channel. Did the ULF made my midbass horn to sound harder? It is very possible to be so. I wonder how I can test it? I have no way to modify the sound of my ULF and I have no way to change the ULF amplification, which is basically a transistor amp with all consequences of SS not able to produce proper bass. I would LOVE to try to drive my ULF tower with a powerful SET but where can I get 100W SET? I had a few threads hat covered the subject:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=5200

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2136

… but I am not going to built anything  juts to “try”. It would be nice if I was able to borrow somewhere a SET amp that would be able to output 100-150W but then I realized that it would be most likely a full range set but I would need LF DSET. I might get as a test a power amp with 211/GM70 tube and to wind to it LF DSET transformer with huge inductance and no sections – it will give me some point of reference if it still be in class A. However, I am not convinced that what I am taking is coming from amp not from my drivers in woofer towers or from the way how my woofer towers are built (slightly over damped). Anyhow, I do feel that it does make sense in my search for “good honk” to move the accent from my midbass horn to my ULF thread. If I will do anything about the “good honk” then I will continue my talk in the other, more appropriate thread.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 416
Post ID: 15839
Reply to: 15814
Honk idea...
fiogf49gjkf0d
R,

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are after, but if you remember my idea of filling a horn with a dense gas and having a gas tight, but loose mylar sheet to seal it in at the mouth... that will extend the LF, but you'll also get a greater impedance mismatch at the mouth.

I wonder if the resulting reflections may give you some of that quality... the gas to use is SF6, which would cost a fortune, but CO2 might be much cheaper and give a gentler mismatch.

Slightly higher speed of sound would also change the alignment...

Just a thought..
04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 417
Post ID: 15952
Reply to: 13597
My midbass horns are pregnant.
fiogf49gjkf0d
From the time of the insertion and setting the proper crossover my midbass is growing and growing, getting larger, deeper and better in all aspects. I am not kidding and now, when I have no ULF channels operational, it is very obvious. I can’t explain it by temperature variations as the back chambers are well insulated from rest of the attic; I have temperature and moisture sensors to confirm it. Probably the suspension of those 60 year old drivers is changing. Wherever it goes it’s truly beautiful.

A few months ago my long quest for the best Scherzo from Bruckner’s Apocalyptic came to the end and I found a truly sensational version.  Since then I pretty much end ALL of my listening sessions with my THE Scherzo, so I see how progression of my midbass horns pregnancy… Holly cow, I have become the Horn Obstetrician! I can see Bill from NH is laughing…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 47
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 418
Post ID: 15956
Reply to: 15952
Obstetrician
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank god for partial retirement. Now, instead of delivering babies at 3:00 AM, I can listen to my system.
Glad to hear the system is sounding so much better, especially with the ULF channels. Guess I'll have to get you up here again to retune my system now that you've got the ULF bug back again.
04-13-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 419
Post ID: 16035
Reply to: 13597
The midbass horns and older recordings.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I need to say that for whatever reasons the midbass horns acts as a phenomenal tranquilizing   sedative to listen some older recordings. The midbass horns make bad sound much more palatable and make attention to be much less distracted to quality of sound from old souses. I do not know how to explain this fact but it is what it is. Some of the music that I listen I would never have some much pleasure if it was not Macondo. Sure Macondo has some other virtues that that make good music to sound good but I am a preserving asshole and I did disconnect my midbass horn and conceded other midbass to see what happen. It was not that quality of bass was changing but alone with midbass horns from music some kindles were doing way and music became more demagogic and more unpleasantly authoritarian, authoritarian in bad way.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 420
Post ID: 16664
Reply to: 13597
The new seasonal observation about my Midbass horns
fiogf49gjkf0d

I was listening recently my Carl Schuricht’s Bruckner and I again noted what I am been noting for a while. I feel like my Midbass horns begin to sound a bit saggy. It is not too but and the degree of change is very minor. It is not even auditable at normal dally listening but if to observe the composite experience from multiple week then I say that the effect is there. Being me, if I acknowledge the problem then I do pay attention to the problem with much attention. Yes, I do feel that there was some very gradual change in my Midbass sound for the last 2 month or so.

Thinking what would it be I can propose two factors:

1)    My new Vitavox 15” drivers that were sitting in box for 60 years finally got broken-in completely.

2)    The high temperature at attic has softened the suspension of the drivers.

In both cases most likely the resonance frequency dropped for a few Hz that lead to a very mild sagginess of my midbass sound. I did not measure the resonance frequency nowadays, probably I shall… Most likely two processes worked together and second one strained the first on.

I have a remote humidity and temperature sensor sitting atop of the midbass horns back chambers. At the hottest day of this year so far with temperature of 94F I have at my attic 121F with attic venting off.  My attic does not have venting roof ridge and use side venting. I installed a powerful exhausting fan with thermostat, rated for twice size of my attic.  It cool attic very well but I did not note any improvement in sound since the exhausting fan went up. Indeed the difference is VERY mild…

What it boils down is that I think I need to revise the size of my back chamber in respect to new lower resonance frequency. It will take a little filling of the back chamber to drive the Fs up back to 42Hz. If I recalibrate the thing for summer, let say for 75F then during the winter I might put in the back change a very small heating element with thermostat and to stabilize the temperature. I still am contemplating it and not so egger to proceed. I like what I have now – the back change is empery as it would allow me to rotate the driver. The vintage 15-inshers with paper suspension need to be rotated 180/45 degree once a couple years if they are mounted vertically.

I am still on the fence with it but I do knowledge the there is very mind performance variation with season change.

Rgs, The Pussy.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 421
Post ID: 17133
Reply to: 13597
The midbass channel. A year later.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today is an anniversary as my midbass channel was completed, installed and finished. The horns still did not collapse my house. Below is the picture before and is it is today.


The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-13-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 422
Post ID: 17521
Reply to: 17133
To hear my midbass horn?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today a guy I know from south coming to my listening room to hear my payback. He is mingling with horns, he heard my installation in city and he is very much interested to hear my new listening room and the most important my new midbass horn. He actually said exactly like this: “I want to hear how your midbass horn will sound.”

Oh, boy the poor guy will be so disappointed!!! I recognize as a greatest accomplishment in my listening room that my large midbass horns are not only invisible but also unauditable. I never seen midbass configured and calibrated as in my room and my visitor who is looking for Sound of Midbass Horns might be very much at lost.

Still, as music call upon the horn will do what they need to do but they will never go over what they need to do. This is one of the reasons why the thread is called “Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time”.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-11-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 423
Post ID: 17944
Reply to: 13597
Macondo Bruckner Midbass horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I spoke recently with a friend of my and was trying to describe the sound of my midbass horns. I said that if Wagner was able to have his custom Bayreuth Tubas then why I am not able to have my Bruckner Midbass horns. I kind of like the metaphor that I crate as the sound of my Midbass horns, the way how they integrated in my playback and the hay how I use them in my view makes them very beneficial to play Bruckner-like music. For somebody who did hear my Bruckner Midbass horns it would be very difficult to understand it. Even if you did hear them than you need to understand and recognize how different configurations of my Bruckner Midbass horns impact the rest of presentation in my room. I did not demonstrate it to anybody and to my knowledge very few people understand what is being dealt in this. So, I do not think that I will find understanding, nor I looking for any understanding. Still, I would like to rename my Macondo Midbass horns into Bruckner Horns. The definition would be the following: the Bruckner Horns in playback is unique musical instrument of playback that no one understands out there but that does what is necessary to play Bruckner. The definition is perfect. So, from now the Bruckner Horns is requested trademark of Macondo Playback. Hopefully it will piss of a lot of typical hi-fi people out there who have no idea what this post was all about.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-11-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 76
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 424
Post ID: 17945
Reply to: 17944
Mahler sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am not laughing.  Just the other day I had the upper bass a little extra prominent, and midrange was gently tapering off into the highs.  
Some would say it was rolled off and flat, but when I played two Mahler 1's and the 9th, I enjoyed him like never before.  
Nothing else sounded very good.  Bruckner sounded still abrasive, but the Mahler, it had a real horn sound, even the violins sounded like horns at times.  
Simon Rattle with the Berlin from a Berlin FM broadcast 2010.08.27 , Symphony No. 1, wow!  
I really think the upper bass implementation must be flexible, depending on recording and composer.  
Plus 3-5 dB for Mahler, more for Bruckner?  Actually it is probably not loudness so much as volume of foundation.
Perhaps we can get back to the Upper Bass thread in a more general sense than Harlanov's no doubt interesting cushion of bass observations.


Mats
03-11-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 425
Post ID: 17946
Reply to: 17945
Default properly balanced sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 mats wrote:
I really think the upper bass implementation must be flexible, depending on recording and composer.  
Plus 3-5 dB for Mahler, more for Bruckner?  Actually it is probably not loudness so much as volume of foundation.
It was what I was thinking a few years back. Nowadays the idea of flexible setting of independent channels, including the flexible ULF does not appeal to me and strike me as wrong. I perfectly recognize the reasons for flexible setting still even having this options I do not do any ajustemnt. In my view a playback balance needs to be set for one “proper” setting. It is hard to explain what “proper” is but it is very easy to demonstrate. If a playback is in “proper” channel balance setting then no matter what recording is played and no matter what the deficiency of recording is the playback still shall present the result that would not encourage modifying anything. I know, it does not make any sense for people. They feel that if a recording has shy lower bass or not enough lower MF then it might be compensated somehow by re-balancing playback channels. A big mistake. Playback need to be set to deliver a default properly balanced sound.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 17 of 19 (456 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 15 16 17 18 19 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  230819  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  59083  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  190327  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1097837  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1823307  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  836990  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1464820  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  The ULF amp Itch....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     146  922228  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  49389  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12073  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  131492  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11474  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  82789  06-13-2011
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts