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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1856709  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1488963  07-26-2009
11-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 251
Post ID: 24538
Reply to: 24520
Some freaking magic.
There are some things that I truly cannot explain in Macondo topology. I am kind of the author of the Macondo topology. Did not “invent it” of cause, rather just formulated and I should know everything about the Macondo application? Ended I know a lot, I know how the use what I know but there some aspect that are complete mystery for me. I know it works but I have no idea why. One of such of the aspects is the proximity of Macondo listening.

 
The common practice of the Macondo topology recommend to put the listening position at 80%-90% of the space between the speakers. If you sit  too close then you have R and L channels with missing middle image presentation or the middle image transition because too abrupt and if you go too far then everything sounds like mess to me. So, we have space between the speakers proportional to the listening distance. Of cause we presume that we have proper space from wall and many other basic factors. 
 
The between speakers distance to listening distance ratio kind of work but there is always that magic spot where the alignment of Macondo jump over the roof. I have no idea why. As the listening distance hit close to 6 feet (to the mouth of upper bass horn, which would be probably about 8.5 feet to the diaphragms) then Macondo is really getting alive.  I set now 6.3 foot from upper bass horn and 11 feet apart horns. I moved the horns closer and the screen now can’t be easily dropped down. In this kind of ridicules configuration for such a large room the sound the Macondo’ sounds jump like a wounded in ass antipodes, with very nice imaging and with very nice space mapping. The integration, the colors, the decay…everything gut get absolutely alive with this close proximity. Perhaps it is just a way why how I get accustomed to listen but it is what it is. But this is why I consider myself an elite audio listener… 
 
I still have no explanation why a foot wider and a foot farther the whole effect is collapsing. It should not be. If I have a pair of some kind of box speakers then they are forgiving in term space vs distance. The Macondo is not. No explanation, just magic…
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 142
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 252
Post ID: 24539
Reply to: 24538
Explanation
I am thinking that there is an explanation and it has to do with a narrow sweet spot, where the large system sums properly with reduced amount of chaotic room reflections, with a smeared timing. I noticed a similar effect with my system and if I reduce the physical area of sound source (to approximate closer to a point source) the room interference is reduced, the sweet spot is enlarged. I think that the larger the system, the uglier the sound that the room sees (mostly timing alignment of channels) and throws back at you. This is my explanation, although a crude one. But I have tested it and always come back to the same explanation, the same problem of a large system with multiple sources of sound.For example, a small Tannoy V8, with it's limitations and handicapped sound, performs the trick of coherent sound projection very well -- disturbingly well.Have you tried turning off channels, one at a time and observing how the sound forms in the areas where it's usually a mess?
11-03-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 253
Post ID: 24540
Reply to: 24538
11 feet apart
When you say, your horns are 11feet apart, does this mean from acoustic centre line, or the outside perimeter of the upper bass horn. If it is from the outside perimeter of the upper bass horn you are having a similar setup with mine. When they are about 3,5m apart like I have them now, which is a little wider than yours, the depth of the image, the textures, the whole aliveness and complete disappearing act of the speakers is really mind blowing.

The whole effect does not collapse with a foot apart with mine. But, if I do that, then I have to change a lot of things. First is how far I sit. Then the midrange horn attenuation. The amount of toe in. The acoustic treatments in the room. Then you can have a very similar effect, a little less exciting but a very well balanced sound. 

For these practices, the best I found out is to decide with horn stack only. Then adjust the bass afterwards. It is much easier to decide with everything that is working approximately over the schroeder frequency of the room.
11-03-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 254
Post ID: 24541
Reply to: 24540
Juts a proposal.
In my current scenario I have slightly under 11 feet between the MF driver diaphragms. The optimum listening distance in my view somewhere between 8.5 and 10 feet with the acoustic center line pointed to shoulders. This is my typical configuration and it works for me very well for me. The listening distance off cause is not set on stone and to great degree is contingent upon the location of the speaker of the given topology (and I am taking here ONLY about Macondo topology) in the room, the proximities to the walls, the acoustic treatment and many other factors. That all is not a mystery. The mystery is that as the listening distance is set that with any other speaker topology you can slightly widen the distance between the speakers and move the listening distance slightly further. With most of the speakers it works fine but not with Macondo. As soon some “magic” balance of space vs distance is violated the sound goes to hell much faster then I observe with any other speakers. 
 
 
I do not agree with the explanations above. The leading idea that I have is that as the listening distance move further then the time aliment curve become more flat. This screws us the time alignment. This is just a proposal. I did not test is and do not realign the Macondo timing if I move my listening chair a foot further. So, this effect would be present in all acoustic systems that are tall have HF transducers at the peripherals.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-04-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 255
Post ID: 24542
Reply to: 24494
Stronger preamp
Dear Romy,
Try EAR 312. it may help.
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 256
Post ID: 24543
Reply to: 24542
A stronger preamp and sick Paravicini?
 ArmAlex wrote:
Dear Romy,
Try EAR 312. it may help.
There is a very little info about the EAR 312 and I do not know if it is “stronger”. Wherever I looked I was not able to find the output impedance numbers.  It looks like the preamp use transformer-coupled SS outputs, I am not sure why it does so. To keep the noise out? That will be strange… 
 
I also not comfortable with the Paravicini name. Do not get me wrong, he is an excellent designer but I feel that very much might be a typical industry idiot. A few years ago he sent me a few emails blaming me that I am stealing his ideas and degrade him with my “End of Life Phonostage”. That was absolutely ridicules. I explain to him that I very much at my site gave him credit in his design of 834. The modification of the circuit was not mine; the only thing that I did was introducing the air caps in feedback and to compliment it with Expressive Technology II transformer. He accused me that I “build my financial success on his bones” and as soon I heard it I advised him to go fuck himself. Mr. Paravicini chooses a wrong door to knock with his paranoia.  So, I doubt that I would engage off the shelf Paravicini product. I do think that Paravicini was juts confused in his assessment of my objective but honestly I have no interest or patience to deal with hi-fi industry Morons.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 297
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 257
Post ID: 24544
Reply to: 24543
Sick? No.
But Tim is a very difficult man. To everyone.
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 258
Post ID: 24545
Reply to: 24543
Strong pre
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 ArmAlex wrote:
Dear Romy,
Try EAR 312. it may help.
There is a very little info about the EAR 312 and I do not know if it is “stronger”. Wherever I looked I was not able to find the output impedance numbers.  It looks like the preamp use transformer-coupled SS outputs, I am not sure why it does so. To keep the noise out? That will be strange… 
 


Unfortunately I can't lend it for a listen, I'm too faraway! The system in which 312 is being used is quite different with yours of course. But what i know is when I used more than one set of output many pre amplifiers kind of die. Not this one, even using 2 sets of long interconnects it's very stable and no sound degradation. That's why I thought it may be powerful enough. I can send you some pics from inside if you are interested.
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 259
Post ID: 24546
Reply to: 24545
I think it will be no 312....
When you use more than one set of outputs in a pream many BAD preams will die, but this is also would be depending of the power amps’ input impedance.  If two sets of long interconnects caused sound degradation then it was not bad preamp but VERY BAD preamp.  Generally, a high current, DC coupled preamps should have the lowest output impedance and it looks like your 312 is the topology as above. I am not sure what the “psychologically healthy Paravicini” made in his preamp putting there output transformers.  Anyhow, it does not look as it is a common preamp in my part of the world and I do not think I will be able ever to evaluate it.  Even if I did I am not sure I would use it as I do not want Mr. is to “build his reputation on my bones”.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-18-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 260
Post ID: 24566
Reply to: 24538
The new room is officially open.
Today is a first day since we moved to the new house last June when a local audio guy comes on over to do some listening as I feel that the room and playback setup is over. It is kind of important to me to have this introvertial milestone, to know that my playback is up and running and to feel that this part of my comfort is… comfortable. It is funny as when we were hunting for a new house then to have a good listening room objectives were very deeply sited into our requirements. We did not like the house initially but I did feel that this listening room had a good potentials and it was something that made wify to see and to examine the house during second showing. She did ask me how long it will take for me to setup the listening room, and she did imply in that time to rebuild my midbass horns. We were expecting the twins then and I told her that it will take 3-4 year to open the new listening room for business. So, I am running 1.5 year ahead of schedule…


There is a tone of thing that I still need to do in my listening room: organize the CD/LP/Video/tapes alphabetically as it used to be, find somewhere 3-6 extra DB volume, figure out how to use video and DAW with Larry Gold at the same time, try to put in ULF use the lest channel extra 2 scan speak drivers and so on… but the intrinsic bones of the playback Room/Macondo/Milq operation is already setup and I am content with what I getting here.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 261
Post ID: 24585
Reply to: 24566
A picture…
I was looking for a wile how to cover the slanted wall between my speakers. I hate while walls and I did not want to put in there any acoustic treatment. The room is treated enough end there is no need to put anthem more acoustically active. I wanted something that I feel is pleasurable to watch. I did eventually found it, it took 6 hours to put in in there….

Room_Picture.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 297
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 262
Post ID: 24586
Reply to: 24585
What a beautiful set-up!
I'd only try to move the computer screen out of the way of the tapestry.
12-03-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 263
Post ID: 24587
Reply to: 24585
Dream place
I'll willingly give away a bottle of 25 years Armeninan cognac and a box of Cohibas to spend an hour in this enviroment.Dear Romy enjoy this "fruit" which you got by spending a lot of time and most importantly a lot of knowledge.

Armen
12-04-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 264
Post ID: 24590
Reply to: 24585
Headphones sound from playback
I have a local audio guy coming to my room recently and he hive me an interesting feedback. He said that my playback sounds like a headphone. I had years back, when I lived in Boston apartment somebody told the same things. There is a point to comparing the sound of my playback with headphones. One of the objective that I always had is that listening a playback installation at the listening position with and without good headphones should not make any difference. For sure it will be a difference in term of space, imaging and a few other aspects of presentation but overall balance, the unity of sound, proportion dynamics across octaves, tonal aspects should be generally the same or even better. Headphones do allow mentally focus   of this of that aspect sound of music, a playback sound do the same. It is important to note that association of sound of playback with sound of headphone has absolutely no indication of musicality of playback. But is does serve a good technical listening starting point.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 265
Post ID: 24591
Reply to: 24590
The headphone analogy
I heard the same not just from one but from a few guys for my playback as well! I think it is because of the all encompassing effect and the strength of the stereo image. Most people have never heard that strong of a phantom centre, or an orchestra actually laid out in front of them in 3d sound like that. However the visceral feeling you get (not talking about the bass thump) not just from your ears but from your whole body is something I really miss with headphones. You can not feel the dynamics, which means you miss a lot of feeling as that is one of the most important ways one conveys feelings through their instruments. They have incredible clarity, good balance. Great to spot little things and I used them for checking my mixes and after tracking instruments for any problems back when I was recording. They can be like a microscope. I have some stax, and had some other good headphones (akg etc) from studio days but I can never get into them for listening pleasure. 
12-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 266
Post ID: 24592
Reply to: 24591
Sound in a head vs sound in space
 kodomo wrote:
I heard the same not just from one but from a few guys for my playback as well! I think it is because of the all encompassing effect and the strength of the stereo image. Most people have never heard that strong of a phantom centre, or an orchestra actually laid out in front of them in 3d sound like that. However the visceral feeling you get (not talking about the bass thump) not just from your ears but from your whole body is something I really miss with headphones. You can not feel the dynamics, which means you miss a lot of feeling as that is one of the most important ways one conveys feelings through their instruments. They have incredible clarity, good balance. Great to spot little things and I used them for checking my mixes and after tracking instruments for any problems back when I was recording. They can be like a microscope. I have some stax, and had some other good headphones (akg etc) from studio days but I can never get into them for listening pleasure. 
Kodomo, I do not think that “all-encompassing effect and the strength of the stereo image” is something that make people to associate your playback with headphone. The strength of the stereo image is something that headphones do not have it in my view. There are headphones-focus community in audio who might feel that I am a fool and they would violently disagree with me and they spent a lot of efforts to get the imaging via headphones.  I would not argue. I am not so advanced in the headphones world but my experience with headphones, whatever it is, advises me that there is no imaging with headphones. A properly set playback should be way more advanced in term of strong of a phantom center or orchestra laid out. If somebody feel that a playback images like a headphone then it would be in my view a great insult. The headphone do “sound in a head” and this is very different from normal playback that should do “sound in space”


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 67
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #: 267
Post ID: 24593
Reply to: 24592
Wrong way
Romy you take it from the wrong end. Of course the image is vastly different as the sound is in your head with the headphones and not laid out in front of you. But a centre image is exactly at centre (not in front but centre, a phantom inside your head), everything is separated precisely from centre to sides and have their own 3d locations. The difference is one is in your head in 3d, the other is in front of you in 3d.

I did not take it as an insult as it was not. If I could actually figure out a reproduction system to sound exactly like headphones and somebody told me that, that would still not be an insult, that would be an incredible breakthrough and would mean I have found a new way of reproducing sound Smile
12-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 268
Post ID: 24594
Reply to: 24592
Sounds like an insult to me
hi Romy
Confusing description this headphone alikeliness. I heard couple of strong beaming horns and noticed despite the good resolution (equivalent to dampened room) also a very narrow stage. Especially the center usually being like a meter or two closer to me. I was describing it joking as „spitting to my face , like a headphone „. I want distance, like in the philharmony, realistically far away. Its of course not all in head like a real headphone (which i don’t like either) but still, wide dispersion speakers or dipoles especially electrostatics have the air and space i want. So, in your system, u refer to the resolution only, or the stage is also very narrow?
Cheers Josh 
12-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 269
Post ID: 24595
Reply to: 24594
Imaging.
Well, probably too much looking into to the word “insult” made the focus of it a bit off the target.  I do not know what makes the headphones to have bad imaging devise.  There are zillion papers written about it, whoever care about it might look among the headphone people.  I never care about it, even though I use headphones a LOT, being a software engineer I do work in headphones in office. 
 
Horns are usually are bad for imaging. Different topologies can throw much better imaging then horns. Still, there are reasons why horns do not image as good as some other topologies and is to take care about the reasons (time alignment, horizontal surface, back reflections etc…) then it is possible to get a spectacular imaging from horns. Not a lot of peoples know how to get there. 
 
I still feel that direct radiators conceptually have advantage over the horn’s imaging.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-11-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 270
Post ID: 24597
Reply to: 24585
Some odd pleasure with no memory.
Last Friday I have some time free from work and kids and I sat in my listening chair, put some music in spend nice few hour to listen music. The playback sounded very nice. Not nice in audiophile sense but rather very none-conflicting and musical all together.  It was very pleasurable and I had very nice time. 
 
In two nights I woke up during the night for some reasons and the memory of the pleasure I had listening my music come to me. They the strange things happened: I did not remember what music I played. A few days past and each day I am trying to refresh in my mind what music I played that day and I just do not remember what was it. I have had it before…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 302
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 271
Post ID: 24598
Reply to: 24597
Learn to forget
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Last Friday I have some time free from work and kids and I sat in my listening chair, put some music in spend nice few hour to listen music. The playback sounded very nice. Not nice in audiophile sense but rather very none-conflicting and musical all together.  It was very pleasurable and I had very nice time. 
 
In two nights I woke up during the night for some reasons and the memory of the pleasure I had listening my music come to me. They the strange things happened: I did not remember what music I played. A few days past and each day I am trying to refresh in my mind what music I played that day and I just do not remember what was it. I have had it before…


Do we really need to explain this to you?

Anyway your set-up looks relaxing and pleasing (apart from that monitor stuck up there) and I hope you enjoy your time spent with it. I think the surrounding decor is an important adjunct to enjoyment of a nice audio system. Enjoy the holiday season. Best wishes. Steverino
04-01-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 272
Post ID: 24776
Reply to: 22459
The infrabass injection.
I was listening a few days ago the first crescendo of the Bruckner 9 by Vienna and Giuliani. I was listening probably 20 times in row and was always feeling that I was missing something. The Bruckner crescendo are different then most of the crescendos in classical music. Bruckner always lives some space in “there”, it was goes laud, large and with his typical “gravitas” but it has some very interesting “loudness space”.

I do not care how many ‘f’ in the Bruckner score. The celebrated 5f in famous music or even the Ligeti‘s 8f cannot be projected to Bruckner in my view. The morons like Mahler is trying to get gravitas by dynamic range but Bruckner does not do it by pure loudness and by many other things. In my former listening room I was able to get some Bruckner crescendos in the way how I like it but in my current listening room something in missing in my view. The sound-wise it is fine but it has in my view it has slightly shallow philosophical meaning. 
 
I have been thinking about that “philosophical meaning” in the Bruckner’s reproduced crescendo for some time. Sound-wise and texture-wise the crescendo fine. I think that the crescendo in my current listening room are lacking info-sound. The info-sound in reproduced music does not give only “weight” to bass but also alter “meaning’ of that weight. 
 
I am thinking how to inject the sub 20 Hz bass in my room. I do have space to do and means to do it but I am slowly contemplating for more elegant way to do it…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-01-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 302
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 273
Post ID: 24777
Reply to: 24776
The number 20
I am thinking how to inject the sub 20 Hz bass in my room. I do have space to do and means to do it but I am slowly contemplating for more elegant way to do it…

Why are you trying to get sub 20Hz in your room in order to play Bruckner's symphonies or anyone else's? The orchestral bass goes down to the mid 30s Hz limit nearly an octave above 20Hz. The only exception would be large pipe organ where the lowest note is 16Hz. Bruckner's crescendos are weighty not only because of the massed forces but also the relatively low frequency range of the trumpets he used (in F not C) and the way he orchestrated the brass and strings. The lower range instruments have more overtones in the audible range and therefore fill up the soundfield. The slow tempos also help increase coherent reverberations. Mahler and Richard Strauss use the brass and horns in more varied fashion and are more contrapuntal in the scoring.
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 274
Post ID: 24778
Reply to: 24776
Undertones?
Yes, it seems like these "crescendos" should have something under them for "support" and "seriousness", and the something should be the size of Valhalla.  My ceiling is only 8' and it seems "too low for Bruckner".  Mark's higher ceiling works better for the "atmosphere", but I'm not sure a larger room alone is enough because no matter the size of the room it must be "fully charge-able" FR for a shot at "complete" Bruckner. Although most conductors do not try to blow the doors off with Bruckner, there must always be "portent".


Paul S
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 302
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 275
Post ID: 24779
Reply to: 24778
Resonance distortion
Paul,

  You do raise an issue I was unclear about from Romy's post. If the aim is not to hear the music accurately but instead to be overwhelmed by it then some kind of sensory overload is the goal. This would be like putting an amplified band in a small club or letting the Velvet Underground turn up the amps in the recording studio while performing the songs on White Light White Heat. Listen to that record for how it sounds when you are not inside that room. But inside the room it sounds well uhh overwhelming.
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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1856709  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1488963  07-26-2009
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