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01-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Timothy L. Davis
Brookline, US
Posts 7
Joined on 05-12-2005

Post #: 1
Post ID: 534
Reply to: 534
Loudspeaker: Sound reproduction has not changed.

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Hi Romy
I have never purchased a manufactured loudspeaker I've built my own and they were all much more interesting musically than any that I've herd on the market.After seeing the CES voodoo you get an understanding that it is about(the con and money) has very little to do with musical enjoyment.Advances In playback have not made sound reproduction more musicaly interesting.The only way this will happen is when the love of music over come the designers lust for money.There is'nt an piece of playback that is worth 10's of thousands of dollars that's truely MORONIC.I agree that the loudspeaker is one of the weakest links I guess my point is I try to do the best I can with what little money that i can invest in playback.
01-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 535
Reply to: 534
Re: Sound reproduction has not changed.

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One thing I have noticed at CES is that many successful audio component companies are incorporating a lot more physical design elements into their creations. They have focused more on the component as a symbol of personal style expressed by the component as an object only. I dont find this bad or good as it is up to the consumer to decide the value of the musical aspect of a component vs. the value of having it as an object to enhance the physical expressiveness of their home. However, it does make me feel more alienated when trying to think in musical terms as I wander about the rooms. I find myself suddenly at a fashion show and I was beginning to notice womens scarves and perfumes a lot more than the sound.

Steve
01-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 537
Reply to: 534
Sound from a sick Cat

Timothy,

My “understanding” whatever you feel I understood “after seeing the CES voodoo” neither changed nor evolved in any directions. My level of tolerance changed but it was it.

However, I feel that you mistakably “deciphered” my message.  First of all I have to note that I have heard many home-brewed loudspeakers that did not necessary sound better, in many cases worst, then thier commercial equivalents. They were less expansive but “just the price” is completely irrelevant at this mater.

You see, I do not complain about the commercial loudspeakers as a concept but I complain that 1) they are mostly bad 2) they “politically” are not inappropriate audio ingredient 3) they have very little to do with the actual listener’s demands and needs (listener-speakers and speakers- listener feedback loop)

I know it is kind of “general phrases” but trust me: I have a lot of “load” behind those watery words. I am sick now and I‘m out of my healthy-malicious attitude but when I get in my normal physical shape and have time then I writhe further explanations on the subject.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-21-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Timothy L. Davis
Brookline, US
Posts 7
Joined on 05-12-2005

Post #: 4
Post ID: 546
Reply to: 537
Re: Maybe VooDoo Was to strong a word

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Hi Rony The only think a manufacturer has over the me is custume made drivers not saying that makes them better.Also you came up with a design conclusion and assembled you own system(That makes you a DIYer).You choose not to endores any produce but you do by association because people respect you thoughts.I'm not saying that all the products at the CES are crap Just a large percentage are.Most of the best driver choices  are older drivers (Why?).Sound reproduction is a young science even the best sounding system and how well they sound is not any where close to reproducing the event accurately let alone are we recording these event correctly.In my pursuit of more musical  reproduction over the years every thing I have done seemed to improve  the musicality of my different setups.I say seemed because to me the changes made me become more involved in the music.Now weather  those changes where correct who can be sure but to me they where.People are subjective more than they are objective when it come to human senses.I think there are people out there like you that for some reason can see the over all picture better than most.I really dont know where I'm going with this but your site evokes thoughts that I need to explore and it seem here is a good place to do so.Hope you are feeling better Regards Tim ps I think it would be educational to know what your first setup was at what age and how that changed over the years
01-21-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 547
Reply to: 546
I think you getting it incorrect....
Actually I do not see any fundamental differences between production and homemade speakers and I do not know why you put the home made speakers as something by default more superior to the productions models. You see, it is not about the speakers as a self-contained atomic component but rather about the acoustic systems as an adaptable reflection of a listener’s understanding and intentions. Loudspeakers are expressive tool of audio where a listen act as conductor. Formation of an acoustic system is a creative process. Yes, people in DIY environment “appear” like having more opportunities but practice indicates that is not really the case. DIYers do their things directed by the different then manufacturers but still mostly incorrect guiding principles.

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-21-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Timothy L. Davis
Brookline, US
Posts 7
Joined on 05-12-2005

Post #: 6
Post ID: 548
Reply to: 547
the state of mucisality
 Hi ROMY Most manufacturers are DIYERS in the begining It really does'nt take much become a manufacturer.Is classical music the only true form of musial expression I think not.Loudspeakers are expressive tool of music all kinds not just classical.Sound reproduction systems should be able to reproduce any event accuately.Come on Romy tell me what was you first system it has nothing to do with the topic at hand but I would like to know.I my be incorrect but I'm still pursuing the goal accuracyand have fun along the way.I hope I'm not to irritating but what is your range of musical appeal.Tim     P.S.The listeners understanding(of what music,sound reproduction?)and intentions(The intention is the most accurate reproduction of sound)I think all people that enjoy sound reproduction have the same intention.
01-21-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 549
Reply to: 548
It has nothing to do with "state of mucisality".

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Tim,

I relay do not know what you are talking about. The commercially available products and DYI are juts the different ways to get speakers but the various methods of obtaining of AC is not where the problems come from. The problem is the most DYIers and manufacturers have no musically-objective means to evaluate and understand what the hell they do. From his perspective the fact that some speakers where built at the manufacturing plants of Harman International or in somebody's own basemen is completely irrelevant. Anyhow, I will stop here because some of the sighs that I've picked from your comments suggested me to do so.

Regarding my “first system”: this is actually quite interesting subject and quite pleasant memory lane…. I should probably start a new thread for this….

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 551
Reply to: 549
Re: musicality not required

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Hi Romy,

I have a friend who uses his audio system to listen to dramatic productions broadcast (sometimes live) on the radio. He also buys recordings of plays, and poetry readings. He is extremely fussy about how the sound of the venue is reproduced and the specific qualities of the performers voices. He rarely if ever listens to music. He has a system which does give a very convincing portrayal of this type of material.

He is looking to buy a new amplifier. What aspect of listening to 'content loaded' music might help him make the right choice?

Guy
01-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 552
Reply to: 551
And how do you feel ....

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he would answer this question?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 553
Reply to: 552
Re: And how do you feel ....
Perhaps a good place to start is with music that demands more from the listener than the listener demands from it. As if the music is searching you for an explanation rather than you searching the music for one. If the music sets up this dialog with the listener...

Steve
01-23-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 555
Reply to: 553
Inquiring music

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 AOK_Farmer wrote:
Perhaps a good place to start is with music that demands more from the listener than the listener demands from it. As if the music is searching you for an explanation rather than you searching the music for one. If the music sets up this dialog with the listener...

Steve


Very interesting Steve. I've been learning to enjoy those pieces that need and grab your attention to ellicit that kind of dialogue, but I actually find very few ones. Would you mind commenting which works, renditions and recordings are demanding more of you?

Rgrds,

Ant
01-23-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 557
Reply to: 555
Re: Inquiring music
Ant,

For every individual the cause of this experience of dialog is possibly very different.

For myself it is not so much the performance, for reasons it will be easy to see, but the composer and more closely the period when the composer lived and the type of composition.

The center of my musical universe are a triad, and all have to do primarily with religious music. First in the early 1600's in northern Germany with Sweelinck and Schutz, second in Italy in the mid 1600's with Carissimi and Cavalli and lastly in France around 1700 with Francois Couperin. This was a great trasition period for sacred music in europe and when these pieces are played I am captivated.

This is music composed 100 years before Bach (under great Italian influences) and there are not a lot of performances availiable. But I have found that the performance is not what speaks to me but rather it is the actual music itself. Perhaps if I had more performaces aviliable I could be more selective.

Oddly, a trio of contemporary (for me) keyboard composers whose music I feel very strongly about are the solo piano works of Chopin, Field and Medtner. Again it seems to have little to do with the performance (which is one reason I dont post here much as this seems a mor performance driven site).

Chopin was my first love, so to speak, and somehow there is much in him that is in the early composers in my 'triad'. I cant explain this. But I could barbarically say that there is something of Chopin, Field and Medtner in Glinka and some later Russians. In fact, to my ear, and to make a great *leap of faith*, Tchaikovsky bears some strong resemblance to Carissimi. I am getting off track...

So I think that the causes of this musical dialog are very individual. For me it's very much composition driven and not the interpretation of the composition. It may be that I am not demanding enough of the music and so my dialog is not as deep as it could be. I dont believe this but I offer it as a distinct possibility. And the fact that there are few interpretations of much of this early music may also lead me to my position.


Steve
01-23-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 560
Reply to: 557
Very Ilustrative
Thanks Steve for your insightful answer. I feel mixed feelings with classical music. I have some composers that can grab my attention whatever version of their music I listen to, but are very few, probably just Bach, Beethoven and Mendelssohn. There is a big bunch that depending on the performance and the work can do it, and there are some that I haven't been able to grow interest for most of their music. But regarding that further "dialoguing" with the music, I've experienced that only a few renditions can do it. I'm probably too ignorant about recorded performances to know if I'm not capable to be a "serious listener", or if it's just a matter of having not found the performances that really can grow in me.... or maybe it's just that my system is not capable to give me the "thing" that should make some works really interesting. The fact is that I can enjoy better a regular life performance than most of the "reference-recommended performances" of the works I know can do the trick.
State of mind? System flaws? Lack of musical sensivity? Who knows! I wish I knew.

Rgrds,

Ant
01-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 564
Reply to: 552
Re: Musicality. Linn revisited?
Hi Romy,

I hope you're feeling better.

This individual used to be a theatre actor (and sometime critic) and used to participate in and go to plays much of the time. Since an unfortunate accident he is now wheelchair bound and cannot get to theatre easily at all. In his case the amplifier I'd recommend would have to be able to cope with the needs of his speakers. (made not far from you actually, in Haverhill. Snell AIII's )

The point of making this post is that good audio equipment should be able to realistically reproduce the illusion of a recorded event regardless of its content and that, in my view,  'musicality' per se is too prone to subjectivity to be a useful yardstick in objectively assessing the merit of a component or system.
For many years, Linn used a similar maxim although not based on as thoroughly developed thinking as yours. Their 'follow the tune' approach was very successful until their systems were confronted with material lacking specific tunes at which point they rather lost the plot.

An event sounds no more or less real because of its content. My next door neighbour teaches piano. Her piano sounds just as real when a novice is playing a simple tune with one finger (badly) or when she is playing something more complex (well). It has nothing to do with what is being played or the degree to which it engages the senses. You have to examine what it is about the sound of her piano (even coming through a wall) that tells you it's real and not reproduced.

I have an old kitchen radio (made by Hacker in the 60's) which communicates 'musicality' very well. I can derive a great deal of enjoyment listening to a live FM broadcast of a BBC lunchtime concert. It isn't trying to recreate the concert in my kitchen but it conveys the message in the music well enough. The same can happen in the car if I am of a mind to let it. Neither of these constitutes serious audio but both can be very 'musical'.

I think there are attributes which good components/systems have that hold true regardless of the source material and which may be listened for. In my case they require that the source material contains acoustic rather than synthetically generated sounds. I can relate to how this type of music sounds in real life and make my assessment based on that experience. There are people whose musical tastes cover only synthesised, technology based material. They find their own ways of judging equipment. I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest that the sort of electronics or speakers I prefer would be the best solution for their needs.

regards,

guy
01-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 15
Post ID: 567
Reply to: 564
You said it.

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Guy,

**** The point of making this post is that good audio equipment should be able to realistically reproduce the illusion of a recorded event regardless of its content…

If the point of audio is to realistically reproduce the illusion of a recorded event* then which place in the building of that illusion the audio gismos (loudspeakers for instance) take? You see, an illusion is not only a subject of Reality and it is not only the subject of imagination. Rather an illusion is a complicated melt between Really and agreeable imagination. It is not about finding of a “good loudspeakers” but rather be able to identify own objectives and reference point and be able to correlate those reference points with the actual results that the speakers could delivery. The agreeable perception is the key.

Rgs,
The Cat

* I would slightly correct it: is not the “illusion of a recorded event” but rather the “illusion of performed musical peace” but in context of the given application the difference is insignificant.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Timothy L. Davis
Brookline, US
Posts 7
Joined on 05-12-2005

Post #: 16
Post ID: 572
Reply to: 560
How do you know what you are hearing?
Hi Romy                    Reading your brief audio history really does not sound to different than the rest of us.So my next question is (how are you able to hear or think you hear what so many other people just can or don't ).I'm realy not trying to be an ass really.I love classical music and jazz ,rock.My father loved his classical collection alot are old mono rca,angle, london.What I getting at is he had a passion you could tell by watching him when he was listening to them.When I was younger he had an old pair of Empire speakers years later Allison Ones.He also liked other kind of music as well rock,country(puck) but with the same passion.He liked audio as a hobby and I don't know what his (intention or exspectation)were but for him I think they were met to so degree.Regards Tim
01-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 574
Reply to: 560
Please...
 Timothy L. Davis wrote:
....how are you able to hear or think you hear what so many other people just can or don't
I do not think I even made such a declaration.

Tim, also if you do not mind then would you please when you start a new thread start it with you intention to initiate a new distinct subject of a state something that has no direct relation to the existing topics. There is deference between a new post and a new thread.
 
Rgs, Romy

PS: I will move later this thread to your thread: "Sound reproduction has not changed."


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 575
Reply to: 567
Re: the sounds of different venues.
Hi Romy,
 
I suppose I carry in my head, a general approximation of the sound of an orchestra. Whether that is how it sounds in a hall in Birmingham, London, Tallin, Paris or wherever else I've been to concerts doesn't matter. While the acoustics of all those places may vary to a degree, I'm usually thrilled but never startled by hearing a orchestra play live. That sound is always readily recognisable despite the venue. The common and agreeable characteristics that each experience has are what I try to recreate at home.

The loudspeakers attempt to reproduce the spread and depth of the sound and are therefore best placed in front of you to give the same 'viewing angle' as you might get a few rows back in the auditorium.

Stereo imaging is, I believe, a contrivance which for some helps to recreate the illusion. However if you step outside the concert hall when the orchestra is playing it still sounds real without any specific left/right information to help you visualise it.

The same applies to a Jazz trio or indeed to the wonderful harpist I went to see on saturday.

You can take the memory away with you and strive to recreate it at home.

Guy
01-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 576
Reply to: 575
Re: the sounds of different venues.

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Guy

You know I think that we make this all too hard on ourselves.

You recognize when sound is correct without any perceived memory. The recognition is pre reflective and unconscious. The more you think about how it is supposed to sound...the farther you are from the entity that is working at the actual recognition. We are all born with a full set of instincts. Perhaps what we really need to do is learn in which situations they are best left alone to do their thing.

Just a thought.

Steve
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