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04-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 18077
Reply to: 18077
Tree motors from one side? Buttery operated?
fiogf49gjkf0d

There is TT out there: Raven Black Night

http://www.tw-acustic.de/engl/turntables/raven-black-night/index.html

that has:

“3 motors arranged in an arrow formation, pointing towards the platter. Drive belt is guided through the drive pulleys and around the circumference of the platter. Two built-in power supplies - one is exclusively used to charge the batteries. In normal operation the motors run from the battery supply alone, controlled by a microcontroller. Switching between battery and mains supplies occurs automatically without interrupting operation, as does battery charging. A remaining charge indicator is included on the front panel. Battery complement: 20 x rechargeable AA cells. Run time on battery operation only: Approx. 20 hours.”

Well, can somebody explain to me why one motor will not do the job properly?  Also: to run TT motors from DC? Come on! Give me a break! Sorry, but I do not believe in all of it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 18079
Reply to: 18077
In reality it is Dark Night
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 Give me a break! Sorry, but I do not believe in all of it.
The Cat

It is simply a unit for customers who have more money than brain.
The Raven AC was on the Frontpage from TAS and Stereophile (I think), and for some Customers it was simply too cheap. It is not negative from me, you find that everywhere, in Speakers, in Cables, specially in Cartridges ... Analog has endless choices :-)Listened to it some time ago....There is a strong Fan group, they never sleep and search all Internet Pages for "critical" comments to blame the writer. Stupidos , typical for Analog Forums.


Kind Regards
Stitch
04-22-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 18082
Reply to: 18079
More money than brain?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well to pile up superfluous things into audio components in order to make products more expensive is not alien thing in audio. My question was not about to mock the Raven company.  It might be fine TT, I do not know anything about them and I do not particularly care.  Still, any person who has ether  have brain or does not have brain, after he or she buy that TT, would unavoidably make experiment to learn how the DC powering of motor and multiple motors affect sound. In the TT of this configuration is it very simple to put the bell over one motor and it is very simple to switch the motor to run from AC. Let presume that I am a gullible person and let presume that it WILL be sonic difference what a person do it. If it will not be difference then off cause all bets off and the TT need to be smashed over the head of the persons who made it. But if the sonic difference, would it beneficial different or not, does exists then my question is way would it be?

I have a friend of mine, the guy who I do not consider to be an audio idiot, and year back we had a big argument about powering of TT motor. He insisted that by raining PowerPlant  to power his Seiki S-Z1M motor he has some kind of sonic benefits. I absolutely did not believe it. I did not hear the different in his room and I did not hear the difference in any TT that I tried.  It is DC motor with 19V power supply and it stabilized at 12V. There is no exoteric thing in that and motor “see” only voltage. The motors on Micros are light and platters very heavy. The belts are low tension belts and the moment of inertia on the air-suspender TT is huge. My TT takes 4 min to stop if I take the belt off. Why any imaginary voltage-related issues with motor supply can have any impact to the platter?  It looks like Raven uses  more or less heavy platter and they insist that they invested some efforts into “kinky” bearing with very low friction. If so that this platter shall glide on own inertia and as platter achieves the cruse speed the motor only very slightly push the platter to compensate the minor friction loss. Why the DC supply on motor would do any difference is beyond me.

The 3 motors BS is also a big mystery to me. With light platter one might argue that it makes sense – multiple motors can tilt or bias the platter and get rid of the hypothetic bearing beating. I personally do not subscribe this approach but I do see a valid argument for multiple motors in case very light platter used. However, to do it you need to have motors on the different side of platter, not on the same side as Raven has. We do not bias the tilt of the motor axis but we bias the axis of platter. To do it with multiple motor located on the same side of platter is ridicules. Also, the amount of motors I feel is absurd. It is know that any surface might be balanced perfectly only on 3 feet. No surface is balanced on 4 legs, never ever, as only 3 legs of any 4 legs design are actually work. So, Raven and others use 3 motors that along with platter forms 4-leg environment – a foolishness from my point of view. One motor drives, the second motor buffers, what the hell you need another motor for? The third motor can ONLY ether drive or stop, it can’t not do anything else - so what the purpose to use it, particularly if the system use elastic rubber belt?

Sure, all the theories go to toilet if you engage third motor and hear that Sound change in the direction you need. I do not think that it might be the case but I am sure somebody might have experimented with it and can shade some light.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,148
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 4
Post ID: 18083
Reply to: 18082
Selling the Idea/Ring Up Market
fiogf49gjkf0d
Apparently, TTs are so mysterious that anything goes, as long as it's long, convoluted, and circular.  Multiple DC motors "make sense" if one starts by believing that an AC motor naturally slaves to its sine wave and polarity, and that this behavior is problematic, on the face of it.  The multi-motor gambit is just an extension of the notion that it is not only possible but a good idea to drive the platter at the perfect speed with the motor or motors as the means for so doing.  Basically, 3 motors "average out" better than one, not to mention the "benefit" of "balanced tension on the bearing". Rim and direct drive are sub-sets of the "motor-in-control" thinking.  Hats off to Linn, who first planted the idea of the dominant motor in the fertile minds of the light-weight/PRAT fraternity. From such humble, verbose beginnings, the Strong Motor idea seems like a perfectly "reasonable" bid for a significant slice the Heavy Platter Up Market.

To provide even more opportunities, I provide the following grist for the TT mills: Lately I have been wondering about the "micro-controllers" that "regulate" the motor speed(s) on many modern TTs, whether these switching components flood enough hash into the lines to affect any analog parts of the proceedings.

Paul S
04-22-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 18084
Reply to: 18083
Down to Basic
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Audiophile has the emotion to think, why 'this' or 'that' was made and probably there is a secret and this secret can do wonders and so on...
Sometimes we should face the fact, that something was done without any brain or positive result, just to find a reason to make it "more interesting", to increase price, to serve customers who believe that spending more lifts them automatically higher compared to other Audiophiles ("I can hear better, because I can spend more money...").And when the manufacturer can make more money and the customers tell him how good it is, well, can't be better. Or?Even brainless Designs have Fangroups somewhere, you find for everything the matching owner... and they are happy. Believe me :-)Everyone gets what he deserves.


Kind Regards
Stitch
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