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06-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 13848
Reply to: 13848
Small double bass horn for 3"-8" driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
i made a new construction
down to ~34 Hz
for 3", 5", 6,5" and 8"
bass driver,
15 cm flat behind the flat screen
or two with 100x120x15 cm,
or sideboard for
sat placement.

the 17 inside width
would be a best solution with the
TB W6-1916.

the 23 cm inside width
would be enough for
100 dB 1W1m up to
200 Hz with superb
sytem impedance,
by using a
8N MB420 16 Ohm 18sound
you can couple two
double horns (4Ohm)
with one Submodul.

opinions?


DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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06-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #: 2
Post ID: 13849
Reply to: 13848
Bass driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
There is no sutch thing as a 3",5",6.5" woofer.
06-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 13850
Reply to: 13849
Bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
not for PA that´s right,
but up to 95-100 dB max.
there are a lot of good
HiFi bass driver.

normal listening level 55-65 dB

the trick is the
membran movement interlacing
and the bass horn mouth distance

look in the middle:
http://www.hm-moreart.de/11.htm



DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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06-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 13851
Reply to: 13848
Please, Moreart....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Moreart,

Since you are soliciting  public opinions then I would like to say that I very much do not like what you do. Calculate the area of your horn mouth and you get up to what region you have equalization from horn. Everything else is a regular direct radiator.  Nothing wrong with it of course but I do not like that configuration. The key in a horn the reproduce bass is softness, the softness that is in my view is imposable to get by virtue of any other topology. In the horn that you made bass of MF never get soft, in fact it always sounds like the echo from a sewer pipe. I do not claim that this is how your speaker sound but any single speaker of the similar configuration I have heard sounded exactly like that, I can give you a long list manufactures and DIYers who made endless amount of similar constructions – that is very boring.

In horn everything is like a programming in 4GL language – whatever you do – works. The key is to make it to do exactly what is necessary. Do not fuck nether with geometry nor with common sense. Make a normal horn, without cheating with proper profile and see how it competes to you “boxed with wholes” and sub-sized mouth. As you have seen I tried do not comment about your horns in past. I comment, in many instances critically, about horns inhalations, I do not find that your acoustic systems are horns in my understanding of the subject. What you do is some kind of pervert waveguide system, I do not understand anything about the waveguide, I do not like how people talk about it and I do not like even the people who use waveguide phase in their vocabulary.

Anyhow, you was trying to get opinion, well you got it. I think there are many other forums where suck acoustic systems will be much appreciated and you will find in there many people who will kiss you in end of your own sewer pipe, sorry the waveguide.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 13852
Reply to: 13851
Cat
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
"I can give you a long list manufactures and DIYers who made endless amount of similar constructions – that is very boring."
 
oh yes, show me !

sorry boring,
read please "about what" (in the middle)
and give your opinion.
http://www.hm-moreart.de/11.htm

e.g. the step response of
my Saxophon is better as can be ;-)) 



DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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06-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 6
Post ID: 13856
Reply to: 13851
Horst's goals
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

In horn everything is like a programming in 4GL language – whatever you do – works. The key is to make it to do exactly what is necessary.


I think what Horst tried to achieve is not bass softness, but high sensitivity / low bass extension / compact size / easy build, and he achieved it. But of course you are right when you say there are better forums for that.
06-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 13857
Reply to: 13852
Deliberately missing bass - is this a joke?? :)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Moreart, 6,5" and 8" drivers are not big enough even for reproducing midrange, not no mention midbass.
You say (quote taken from your website):

"By processing certain overtones selectively, a rich bass effect can be created using the small speakers which
cannot produce lower frequency components below 100 Hz. While speakers produce
tones above 100 Hz, the processed bass overtones compel the brain to replace the
missing fundamental bass signals, creating the illusion of bass."

When the real bass is missing the brain is working very hard to recreate the fundamentals and the listener cannot focus on Music reproduction. I have heard MANY constructions similar to yours. The result is always the same, no matter the type of the "fullrange" driver used - tonal deficiency of low midrange and upperbass combined with overall hardness and dryness. The instruments which are supposed to sound big and effortless are tiny and dynamically compressed. In addition to that, the sound coming from the month of the "horn" like yours does not have any relation with the sound coming directly from the speaker - two completely independent sound sources.
Nobody here is interested in small sized acoustic systems, so as you were already advised, please advertise your products elsewhere.
No hard feelings,
Haralanov.


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
06-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 13858
Reply to: 13857
Loudspeaker and breast enlargement.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
Moreart,….quote taken from your website):
"By processing certain overtones selectively, a rich bass effect can be created using the small speakers which
cannot produce lower frequency components below 100 Hz. While speakers produce
tones above 100 Hz, the processed bass overtones compel the brain to replace the
missing fundamental bass signals, creating the illusion of bass."

Haralanov, I did not read this article – I hardly ever read anything that stress DIY, but the fragment you quoted made me laugh…
There is an urban legend among women that a woman with large breasts is more appealing to men. I have no idea where it comes from but we all know that for whatever reasons women spend a hell of lot efforts in this direction.

I think moreart opened a new era in breast alterations. Instead of enlarge or change profile of women breast he proposes to men to wear special “perception alternating glasses”. It is certainly a new way of looking at the subject…. I will try it on my Cat. Instead of giving to her a whole can of tuna the she shall devour for 45 seconds and I will give her 1/16 of the can and they will convince her that it was a fool can. If she disagrees then I will sing her the songs about DIY movement…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 13859
Reply to: 13857
Read
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
and this?
"In my double horns measurements however, I used a microphone, so it can not be
a matter of a psycho acoustic effect. In reality, the double horn reproduces

frequencies at least one octave lower in comparizon to the single horn simulations. "

"
MANY constructions similar to yours",
like the cat show us one construction that works like my constructions!

your quote you find at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

Romy,
what a laugh, are you a comedian?
Where is your similar construction list? show us one!

BTW:
would this be more bass for you?
http://www.hm-moreart.de/100.htm


DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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06-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 13860
Reply to: 13859
...their vision of the Easy Audio...
fiogf49gjkf0d

 moreart wrote:
your quote you find at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

Romy,
what a laugh, are you a comedian?
Where is your similar construction list? show us one!

Moreart,

Have you heard about the doctors who were on secretive payroll of tobacco companies who for year stated that smoking is not dangers?  What you linked is the exactly crap that audio “electricians” invented to justify the marketing claims.  No one object that there are conditions under which it is possible to extrapolate lower frequency from overtones but does it mean the we need make loudspeakers aiming this. For God sake, man, who give a shit what kind award-winning Christina Aguilera was recorded and how much bass is allegingly perceived in her recordings? El`Ol, was right – there are much better audio communities who would entertain this idea and combine it with their vision of the Easy Audio. One more think, and I am not kidding, – never use “we” or “us” when you express your own thoughts. It annoys me.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 11
Post ID: 13861
Reply to: 13860
Show us (the forum) your list
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Cat,

"Romy,
what a laugh, are you a comedian?
Where is your similar construction list? show us one!"

I have no problem to be deleteed from this forum,
if a profi don´t understand, can´t read,
make statemente like a profil neurose and
tell us experience without any fakt,
thats boring.

Romy if you are afraid, please delete me.


DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 12
Post ID: 13862
Reply to: 13861
Lacking bass?
fiogf49gjkf0d
About the bass, which must be lacking in such a construction:
I once made an experiment with something similar (single "cut" horn with "mouth" directly adjacent to the driver), and subjectively there was much less bass extension when I placed a barrier between the two. I didn't like the sound in general, more pipe than horn, and in such cases I don't start measurements, but I am very sure there is communication between drivers and "cut horns" and maybe also between two cut horns in direct neighbourhood.
06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 13864
Reply to: 13861
Come on, Moreart!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Moreart, you took it all wrong. No one is trying to delete you. I delete idiots, you are not idiot. You are trying to advocate the listening concepts and loudspeakers design that are not exactly supported by visitors of this site and by my personally - it is hardly a reason for deletion. The point is that when you post your design idea and solicit opinions then you might expect some collaboration. It looks like you do not have a lot of understanding around here. That does not make you wrong – it just makes you knowing in wrong door. This is why you were proposed to fish in a different pond, where people would be more accommodating to your ideas and objectives. As was said – not hard feelings- I just degree and consider not “interesting for myself” what you are trying to do. Do I have rights to do so?

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 14
Post ID: 13867
Reply to: 13848
Open baffle
fiogf49gjkf0d
 moreart wrote:
Hello,
i made a new construction
down to ~34 Hz
for 3", 5", 6,5" and 8"
bass driver,
15 cm flat behind the flat screen
or two with 100x120x15 cm,
or sideboard for
sat placement.

the 17 inside width
would be a best solution with the
TB W6-1916.

the 23 cm inside width
would be enough for
100 dB 1W1m up to
200 Hz with superb
sytem impedance,
by using a
8N MB420 16 Ohm 18sound
you can couple two
double horns (4Ohm)
with one Submodul.

opinions?

moreart I dont want to put down your work. I rather be help than giving you the wrong path.
I cant judge how good your box going to sound especially below 300 hz. there could be lots of parameters which may can accidentally(or on purpose) make a set up sound good or worse we may need to judge it by some critical measurements and our ears to hear it
btw how do you claim that this can be an efficient bass horn ?( we end up with big numbers making below 100hz horn beside the difficulties)
Im not saying it doesnt have some shape of horn but its more open battle that delivers inside cabinet standing waves(box sound) ... that may cant be bad it juz means that lots of works should be done in boxing it.
& I suggest if you  can switch the opening to tuned helmholtz resonator there you can get better results.

 gl
 unicon

06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 15
Post ID: 13868
Reply to: 13867
Unicon
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,

i can´t help it,
take a calculator and calculate,
read the links and see the measurements and simulation
of the Kornett to interpret,
if you don´t understand, ask,

if this doesn´t help, don´t write than your knowledge is to small.

Show us you construction experience of horns.


DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 16
Post ID: 13869
Reply to: 13868
Rear Loaded Horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
Moreart   Most people on this site only badmouth things they don't understand. From what i have read the last few years on romy's site, there is a leader and a bunch of follower's that have no clue of audio basic's in sound reproduction. The leader just speaks out his ass and the follower's take it as gospel. The funny thing is the leader talks the shit and does the bad mouthing of the subject and or devise, when he has never owned or ever tested said device. Like i said 99% of the audio site's on the world wide web are Dis info sites. People wake up use your ears and brains before you talk your shit about something you donot have a clue about. Back to the subject at hand. I have been doing some testing on the rear loaded horns with larger drivers and found them to be a very good solution to bring the efficiency of the driver up closer to the level of the high efficient mid range drivers like tad 4001 or jbl 2441 with out having to use digital crossovers because you can use good time alignment with this topology with good results. I will not bad mouth something tell i at least give it a chance to Fail. Keep up the good research Moreart, knowledge is powerful.  Preaching Horn Religion  MSAUDIO
06-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 17
Post ID: 13870
Reply to: 13868
Meh lets calculate
fiogf49gjkf0d
 moreart wrote:
Hello,

i can´t help it,
take a calculator and calculate,
read the links and see the measurements and simulation
of the Kornett to interpret,
if you don´t understand, ask,

if this doesn´t help, don´t write than your knowledge is to small.

Show us you construction experience of horns.


Moreart
It can be done calculating by knowing your driver full parameters (T/S). and knowing dimensions(opening baffle and internal)& material used(z acoustic).
I cant help you if you don't have a clue how horns acoustically work and act.
that is disgraced if I do the calculations or take any calculator ...again that's not the point
You have designed something which is claimed to be a bass horn(34~hz). and lets agree that my knowledge is too small. then the remaining question is why do I need to construct a horn to get a decent answer ?
I read some on your site and few more :
1- your set up has functioning near 500hz so how you solve the timing problem we may encounter from opening baffle and driver itself ?(your box sound easily reach near 1k hz ?) . in deep bass region it may not be critical .
trying to hear answers again but
Im not going to waste more time ...

unicon
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 18
Post ID: 13873
Reply to: 13870
Why I don't like back loaded horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am on record as not liking back loaded horns:
  • to be effective at bass frequencies, a BLH needs to be as long as a FLH would be; I've yet to see a BLH, with the possible exception of the Tannoy Westminster, that actually has a long enough horn path for supporting bass frequencies down into the real low bass.

  • the horn mouth needs to be the correct size for bass frequencies; few, if any, are.

  • sound needs a finite time along the BLH. It then mixes with the direct sound from the driver. The sound from the BLH will always be out of phase with the directly-radiated sound. At certain frequencies, it will be 360° out of phase, or multiples thereof, and will reinforce the directly-radiated sound. At other frequencies, it will be 180° out of phase, or 540° etc, and lead to a cancellation. At most frequencies, it will be somewhere in between. At all frequencies, it will lead to time smear. It's debatable how much that matters at low frequencies, but it'd be better to avoid this time smear.

  • most BLHs fire the bass towards the back wall, and almost all at a different height from the direct radiator, which results in a very different way of loading the room.

  • all existing BLHs are folded. There's a very good argument to be made that the different sections of the BLH actually act as resonators at specific frequencies; if you look a the frequency response of real-word BLHs, they all show a series of peaks and valleys.

  • another way of looking at BLHs is to see them as transmission lines; they would probably be more effective if built to the rules of transmisson lines.

  • transmission lines are really only needlessly complicated bass reflex alignments. Instead of a BLH, you'd probably get better results from a properly sorted BR alignment.

I've yet to hear a BLH with bass as good as that from a really well-sorted BR cabinet. Just my 2 euro cents, mind, and I'm sure others will disagree.
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 13875
Reply to: 13873
It is about people as usually.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Good summary, Markus, I would add a few more reasons but what is the point. The key is that bass from back loaded horns is dipole by nature or has a large dipole region. The back loaded horns produce bass similar in behavior of Sun during winter: it produce light but does not produce hit. Here is where the ad homonym twist of subject let to be exposed – it is not about speakers but about people. The “back loaded horns people” just do not acknowledge or understand the needs that bass has and they mostly concern about very different thing – built up theories how to sell this semi-dipole bass form themselves. The most frequent leading theory is: look, I took over a weekend a driver, stuck it in a box and got Sound louder then a big and expensive commercial speaker that my neighbor bought. This is how a 90% of DIYers think and this is how they defecate from themselves one back loaded horn after another.

I think 10 years ago I got my ultimate remedy from back loaded horns. There was a Bottlehead meeting right here in Boston and I decided to go there for a first (and last) time. The people brought their amps and so on and there were a few loudspeakers as well. They were back loaded horns with sub-sized mouth – very identical to what Moreart and anybody else are trying to do. What was very funny that all 4-5 loudspeakers sounded absolutely identical disrespecting what kind electronics they were driving or even music they played. I pointed it out to those people and they reply me with phenomenal argument: “Oh, shat up, go and buy Wilson if you wish!”. That was so spectacular that since then to me Bottlehead and “idiots” are synonymum even I have nothing again their amps. Again and Again, audio, as anything else it is about people not about boxes. One need to assess the level of people objectives – only that would give a more or less objective picture about seriousness of Sound.

I very much do not like what Moreart does and I do not like that he is trying to built justification and theory hot intentionally produce infertile Sound. In my view it is not the target of high-end audio. If he is in the business to manufacture algorithms for iPhones and laptops sound system then it is a very noble subject but what it has to do with my site? I do not insist that Moreart’s idea do not to be posted. It is good that it was and I, for instance, learned something. However, if Moreart explicitly solicit opinion about his design then he shall not be pisses and he hears not what you would like to.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 20
Post ID: 13876
Reply to: 13875
Hey guys
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
your posts show you didn´t read, you have no horn
knowledge, no experience,
and i am f....off when people like you
tell the forum, that you built and heard similar constructions, (with bad sound)
but not able to show us,
a matter of lying is boring.

if someone lies to show he has no idea what i am taking about,
why you don´t shut up or show us.

Romy it is better to delet me,
for such stupidity i have no time.

"the horn mouth needs to be the correct size for bass frequencies; few, if any, are.               2
tell us how large must be a hornmouth to reproduce a 40 Hz tone optimal?



DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
less is more
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 21
Post ID: 13877
Reply to: 13876
Why ask for deletion? If you don't like it here, just stop posting and reading.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Horst, why not go to Frickelfest or some other occasion, show off your work and see how people like it. What I read on your website doesn't really go beyond "Judging my own work, I'm delighted by it".


06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 22
Post ID: 13878
Reply to: 13877
Markus
fiogf49gjkf0d
why do you write if you have no knowledge, show us.



DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
less is more
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 23
Post ID: 13879
Reply to: 13878
Horst
fiogf49gjkf0d
 You may well have more knowledge than I. It doesn't matter. This is not a competition. Have fun.
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 24
Post ID: 13880
Reply to: 13852
Moreart, take a look at the other sound problems
fiogf49gjkf0d
 moreart wrote:
oh yes, show me !

Just an example:

IMG_0307.jpg

I can show you at least 20 other backloaded horns with different drivers which I have heard here in Bulgaria.
Moreart, your main problem is the quality of the drivers you use. All those fostexes, audio nirvanas, tang bands, visatons and so on have wrong sound at high frequencies - it is too sharp, too beamy, closed-in and with taste of crunchy paper. It is like someone tries to sing while eating waffers at the same time. You can read about another limitation of such loudspeakers with only one driver here:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2768
and you can do NOTHING about that Wink



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
06-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #: 25
Post ID: 13881
Reply to: 13880
Sorry!!!?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello,
tell us the similarity to my double horns please,
nonsense sorry, if you don´t read and don´t understand,
don´t post, it is boring.

i tested a lot of driver the last 34 years, i found so many
expensiv driver which will at least worth for the money.
And i found a lot of driver which are after 300 ours good enough.




DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
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