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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-18-2022
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I need to say that I miss my Macondo sound, not the sound
itself but an ability to push a button and have predictably good sound. However,
from the place where I'm staying now, I feel that to have just Macondo result
is not enough for me. I would love to have that “magic” and that sense of intimacy
that I got from my Dannoy experiment last September. So, thinking about all of
it I am contemplating a project of Macondo 2.0. the idea is to keep the base of
Macondo to get rid Injection channel and get rid of upper mid-range frequency
channel, tweeter and substitute them with one Tannoy Red driver in absolute proximity
with Vitavox MF Chenal crossed at let say 100Hz. The Red might have a passive
radiator that look behind the Macondo and this way I might be able to deal with
base phase problem I had with Dannoy. The idea is to have S2 driver to run
along with Red and letting the S2 to handle dynamic and let the Red to handle
tone. Sort of acoustic injection with absolute phase alignment between Red and
S2. This is very interesting idea, and I would love to experiment with it. Another
very interesting subject is the fact the I would need to drive it with different
amplification: S2 with my Milq DSET and Red with Yamaha B2/B3. It should not be
a good idea generally as the SS with SET did not work together but there is an
interesting aspect in the story. The people who pushed the VFET claimed that
the VFET has the same electrical characteristics as a … tried. I wonder if all
of it might work out together. I might put in the S2 a metal diaphragm to add some
virility on S2 part to compensate the Red’s lushness. I am very fascinated how
all of it works might work together…
Rgs, Romy
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Posted by Paul S on
11-18-2022
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Agree, it sounds interesting, and just the sort of thing I daydream about. My own speaker project has languished for well over a year, due to "health issues" and old age, generally speaking, and all the more frustrating because I am so close now, yet still unable to actually finish it. I will admit, however, that I somehow managed to complete some significant projects while my children were young, based mostly, I suppose, on sheer will power and the "radiant energy of youth". Based on my own experience, I say, if you feel the urge, get to it, while you still can.
Best regards
Paul S
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Posted by Paul S on
11-18-2022
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Of course, any speaker is a compromise rather than a "solution" for the complex problems of "phase", which can hardly be "solved" by fixing driver diaphragms in the same verticle plane, at least relative to the listener. Not to say that this is not worth doing, but there are several "other considerations", like combing/sum and difference effects, including "issues" from shooting a given driver across a horn body. Good thing we believe our ears before anything else, as I pity the young audio nut who thinks he can "solve" the fluid and dynamic problems of a multi-driver speaker before actually building it. As far as I know, experience is the only real difference maker. And then, there are crossovers, which include adjustments for driver efficiencies... which affect phase...
Paul S
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Posted by anthony on
11-18-2022
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Being in the final phases of tuning my Macondo/Melquiades, I am most interested where you may go with 2.0 Romy. I'm so in love with my setup that I feel it will be quite some time before the honeymoon is over...
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Posted by Amir on
11-19-2022
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it sounds interesting
I think most members like this topic.
I really enjoy to see there is no end to your high end activity
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-19-2022
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-19-2022
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Rowuk, in context what I expressed above I would like to ask you how you a few questions. If you play your trumpet and you are sliding higher then do you do anything intentionally to compensate the collapse “drama” with increase pitch? If you are closing to E6 then is any way for you to bring the “complexity” as you can express in F3. Also, how you handle with the situation when you need to increase pitch but decreased volume? I do not talk about the playing techniques but rather your decision to do handle the situation intentionally different. You see, the playback doe not have the awareness to act differently in the situations, the musicians do it to bypass the limit of the voice of instrument, but playback do not have it autocorrections. So, I wonder if in your view I am in a fruitful direction to think….
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Posted by anthony on
11-19-2022
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Romy,
Interesting video. The first thing that came to my mind when you were talking about HF colours and the "clean" RAAL Waterdrop tweeter, is perhaps adding colour to the RAAL. Instead of blanding out the midrange S2 and injecting HF colour with the red tweeter, perhaps the YO186 is also suitable for the Waterdrop? Go to a two stage HF channel in the DSET.
Just thinking aloud here...no experience with Dannoy or Remedies...but perhaps a simpler solution...or maybe somewhere to go first.
My RAAL Lazy Ribbon has ended up needing a 1st order high pass filter to match the midrange S2 which is so much more convenient than third or fourth order as initially intended.
Rgds,
Anthony
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Posted by Paul S on
11-19-2022
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Anthony, I agree with your central observation, and I have used paralleled HF drivers for decades, starting with the old Peerless paper tweeters paired with RTR6 electrostatic arrays, and now paper whizzers with Audaphon ribbons. As you know, this causes "audible and measurable problems" at the istening seat, yet I would not do it if I did not think it "sounds better". I will speak of how and why I have modified this approach if/when I ever finish my own project. I will say now that I think there are several matters at play here that bear on where and how a particular pairing might be most effective in overcoming the "audible and measurable problems" I referred to earlier, whcih don't just go away but need to be trumped by the "sonic benefits" a particularly well-met pair might bring.
Best regards,
Paul S
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-19-2022
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 anthony wrote: | My RAAL Lazy Ribbon has ended up needing a 1st order high pass filter to match the midrange S2 which is so much more convenient than third or fourth order as initially intended.
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In my case I found that RAAL ribbon with first order can not deal with dynamics of S2 driver. For sure we can make a perfect fit from amplitude of phase characteristic, but low order makes the ribbon to loos dynamic too aggressively. The problem with ribbon atop and Red stop that it feels that Red can go might higher in term of drama. Do not be very persuaded that Red is a spectacular tweeter, it is not as it has own ever presented character that I DO NOT appreciate, I was doing OK for years using the Red for my injection Chenal but now, after my expresses last September, I am want very much change the HF apiculture. Before S2 was handling HF all the way up and as it naturally decayed is was embraced by clinical RAAL. Now I would like S2 and RED to care MF up together when one dictates tone and another dictates rate of change. With proper matching it might work but it might very hard to find the proper setting, including the differences in crossovers and amplification.
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Posted by anthony on
11-19-2022
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| Romy the Cat wrote: |
In my case I found that RAAL ribbon with first order can not deal with dynamics of S2 driver. |
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I suspect that my RAAL Lazy Ribbon does not have as much lower frequency output as your RAAL Waterdrop. RAAL refused to build another Waterdrop so I do not know this for sure but my tweeter SPL falls away very quickly in the lower frequencies even with a first order filter. I could not get a third or fourth order filter to work as the SPL fell away like a stone and I found it impossible to match to the S2 below it...just not enough SPL.
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Posted by rowuk on
11-20-2022
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This is a very good question, but there is a lot involved.
Tying "expressive/drama" factor to frequency range is very real. With a trumpet (and a soprano voice for instance) I would say that we change from dramatic to spectacular above the soprano staff, that means with the fundamentals starting at A=880Hz. This transition is also very much composed into the literature that we play. The purpose of a trumpets high C or D in a Bach composition, is very much like the same notes in a Mahler, Strauss or Stravinsky symphony. The function of this range is generally outside of the orchestral fabric - blending is less important than spectacular. I think that the violin however has more than an octave more of "drama" before the intention becomes spectacular (perhaps >1500Hz).
In the case of Bruckner, we have a mixed field for playback however. The vintage german rotary instruments were built with a very sonorous low register (below C=512) Hz, clear midrange between 440Hz and 880Hz, and above that the instruments were very bright - and directional. Modern trumpets have pretty much homogenized color up to maybe 800-1000 Hz above which they get far more spectacular. Bruckner composed for the characteristics of the vintage instruments and the results still hold true. Even American orchestras are using rotary trumpets for this literature today.
So, what is the drama part? Well, it is color (instrument and performer based), it is the "elegance" with which the musician plays, it is also the "dispersion" of the sound. Lower notes out of a trumpet have a much wider pattern of dispersion - something missing in many recordings. This dispersion makes the room sound a larger part of our total "tone". As we ascend, the room becomes much less of a factor because the radiation pattern becomes much more directional. The drama is also very much influenced by our ability to modulate tone, vibrato, and volume (I am leaving expressive factors like tempo or intonation out of the equation here as the playback is helpless to change these).
So to answer your questions:
1) No, I can not bring complexity to E6 like with F3. We are playing on the partials and the length of the instrument and shape of the bell limit what is available. I can change articulation to change how spectacular the upper range is launched into the room. As pitch increases, the palette of color decreases.
2) Increasing pitch and lowering volume are simply increasing lip tension and blowing less hard - which changes the overtone spectrum (softer means less overtones). If we need a high, soft tone with brilliance, we insert a mute in the bell to lower the fundamental strength. Strings have "mutes" to do similar things.
I would like to add here, that probably the violin is the "best case" acoustically. It is certainly in many respects the most developed instrument with the least limitations. The string length and body size is optimal for the frequencies being produced. I believe that the violin has the greatest expressive possibilities because of this. Great range, great spread of articulation - consistent over that range, ample dynamics and color. As most of a live violins sound is reflected from the ceiling, "real" reproduction could be more diffuse and more forgiving if the recording engineers did a better job.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281076380_Directivity_of_musical_instruments_in_a_real_performance_situation
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Posted by Paul S on
11-20-2022
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Wow, thanks, Robin! You have made quite clear and intersesting for me what is obviously clear and interesting for you.
When thinking of expression via the trumpet, I recall Miles Davis, also Dizzy Gillespe, whose (almost unbelievable) highest highs seem pretty evocative to me (eg, Afro-Cuban Jazz Rythms).
I'm thinking Bruckner is somehow "different" for the continuous "cushion" of (U)LF the instruments are +/- woven through and/or riding atop on.
Is it even fair to add the piano?
This thread should be copied and pasted onto the Musical Discussions board, as well, not to hijack the Dunnoy 2.0.
Best regards,
Paul S
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-20-2022
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| rowuk wrote: | | As pitch increases, the palette of color decreases. |
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Ok, I think I begin to understand the key to the attraction that I experienced last September. I literally took me over a year, and the conclusion is certainly not a definitive answer by rather my working hypostasis. This is a way a radical idea and I would like to tackle it with Macondo 2.0. It is bit “other” perspective open you mind and follow me. Let me to explain
Let forget anything we know about audio and analyze the events of the last year ONLY from the perspective of distribution of palette across the range.
With a single Tannoy Red I never found sound attractive. It is beautifully colorful, but it is so radioactively painted with van Gogh type of colors that it truly destroys music and makes me to feel uncomfortable with what I hear. Plus is has no dynamic range and everything looks like it is painted on cardboard.
Then the “ingenious” Romy the Cat put the Sunspeak passive radiator to the bottom of Red Driver. With all understood audio benefits that the change resulted, I think what escaped me was the fact that I accidently created am active mechanism of none-linear color suspension. Atop of the range the Red was free to do what it doers but as the range does down the colors in Dannoy become more and more reduced by the Sunspeak suspension. It kind of become a mechanical colors damper and that was what I was super hypnotizes with. I am trying to look in my memory and to focus to this specific element of the sound I heard last September and it “feels right”.
So, let postulate that there is a “secretive pattern” that the most suitable for our perception of sound that indicates how colors should be distributed across the range. We do not know pattern, but it very much factored in the musical interments humanity has developed to itself, the history of harmonies, the performing and composing techniques, the way how our hearing is organized, etc… Yes, the pitch increases, the palette of color decreases, it is expected but the more Sound resists to do it (would it be in both music or audio) the more communicative we found should is. Our brain accustomed that as pitch go up that sound become less complex but if by the efforts of playback, or a musician or a singer sound with going up still demonstrate unexpected colors then it acts as a hypnotizing force to a listener.
I “discovered” it long time agon but until very recently I did not put it together with audio expressionism. For instance, I for years was hypnotized what British Chris Barber does with his band. It is not my type of music, but I experience a strange attraction to the way how they use colors seems disrespectful to range. Or another example the very contemporary Dimash. With all wonders that he does vocally and artistically I feel that as he goes up, he reminds me Macondo: drama derives from supper impressive accuracy but not from expressed complexity. But look what he does in the end of the end of the Sinful Passion, he overlays his upper voice with pedal point by chorus which all together enrich drama.
I would like to mimic this pattern with Macondo 2.0. The idea is to have two mid-range drivers with different tonal characteristics and to give different drivers different prominence contingent upon range and rate of acceleration. Of course, all of it should be done in context of absolute face linearity. I do not know in this point if I will be able go away only with mechanical means or need experiment with active electronic attenuation. that all remind me ironically old Ed Meitner IDAT algorism when Meitner used type of DA conversions for slow and fast sounds only in my case it will be pitch and loudness dependent. I do not know how to do it yet but the is the objective.
I cannot describe it but I very much invasion how the result should sound like. Forget whatever we know about audio and forget that we all feel that quality derives from quality of transients’ reproduction. What I propose is that quality is not about of recognition of transient but maintaining some mysterious balance between expressivity of transients across the tonal and dynamic range. It is very loaded task and I do not know how to go there yet but I am not wiling to give up what I heard the last September and I would like my Macondo to be able to do THAT.
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Posted by rowuk on
11-21-2022
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I consider the piano to be a "percussion instrument". There is no steady state "tone" and no crescendo or decrescendo (dynamic) change once the tone is produced. This means that for the current discussion (at least viewed through my perspective), the piano does not apply.
I think that the piano does not move from "drama" to "spectacular" ever. The expressive capabilities are in the articulation (transient) realm, not like a wind instrument that has steady state and transient possibilities. This does not mean that I do not recognize the pianos expressive possibilities, only that the challenges for recording and playback do not follow what I think that we are talking about.
| Paul S wrote: | Wow, thanks, Robin! You have made quite clear and intersesting for me what is obviously clear and interesting for you.
When thinking of expression via the trumpet, I recall Miles Davis, also Dizzy Gillespe, whose (almost unbelievable) highest highs seem pretty evocative to me (eg, Afro-Cuban Jazz Rythms).
I'm thinking Bruckner is somehow "different" for the continuous "cushion" of (U)LF the instruments are +/- woven through and/or riding atop on.
Is it even fair to add the piano?
This thread should be copied and pasted onto the Musical Discussions board, as well, not to hijack the Dunnoy 2.0.
Best regards,
Paul S |
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Posted by Paul S on
11-21-2022
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To my ears, the right piano in the right hands can be very rich in harmonics. Although the harmonics are produced differently than, say, wind instruments, they certainly share characteristics with stringed instruments. I guess it gets down to blowing vs. bowing vs. plucking vs. plunking.
Paul S
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Posted by rowuk on
11-22-2022
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For my ears, the piano is rich in harmonics that change with playing volume BUT the only way to get a louder note is with the hammer striking the strings more powerfully which always is coupled to a louder "articulation". Violins and wind instruments can independently change color and volume without an additional attack. From an audio point of view, each piano note is an isolated audio event. Naturally, great players leverage those singular events to create musical line and drama that is connected.
I think that piano playback is a completely different challenge as speakers deal with the percussive articulation followed by tone very much differently in the various ranges. "Recreating" a plausible piano sound is a special discipline as the percussive portion and the tone/decay have natural proportions that speakers like to inconsistently exaggerate or soften - especially ported, passive radiated or transmissionline architectures. This is why I have problems getting my head around a Dunnoy concept - disjunct lowest octave (due to what the woofer can not do and the "support" of the passive, time delayed Scanspeak) and transition from cone to horn. I could imagine a luscious midrange with some kind of "IT", but my perception would probably spoil the event in a serious way - especially with the instruments that I intimately know.
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Posted by Paul S on
11-22-2022
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The closest to date I overlapped cones and horns myself was waaaay back in my time with Altec A7s. But I have since then and up to now heard many fine "hand-offs" from cone to horn, and my current project speakers hand-off cone to (very fast/short) horn around 1,400 Hz, so I certainly hope it still "works"! As for how far to lap a horn onto a cone, I suppose "it depends" on the drivers, amp(s), room... the usual suspects. Still no idea how to do anything parallel with that phase-wrenching Dunnoy. I watch with great interest.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but pretty sure a piano key can be struck harder even on dampened strings, and God knows how Walter Gieseking did what he did. So much of his playing is lost on many speakers, particularly his Debussey. I don't want speakers that can't do Gieseking. This is why I asked if it's "fair" to include the piano, even though, surely, we all want to hear "natural" piano from our speakers.
Best regards,
Paul S
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
11-26-2022
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Like 20 years ago my table saw and my claps and smell of the
wood glue is back to my garage. I am making my new Dannoy-style HT channel for
Macondo 2.0
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
12-01-2022
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Posted by anthony on
12-01-2022
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You sound excited about the process and the early results Romy...great to hear.
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
12-06-2022
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I finally set it up new Tannoy Red best Twitters. They are sealed irregular shape and purely themselves do not sound bad. They do not have the full range feeling as they had with passive radiator and had a typical red sound of late Autumn leaves. I'm very happy and impressed how elegantly I integrated new tweeters into Macondo frame. However, when I begin to add Macondo original channels driven by Milq I idealized that it will be significantly more difficult then I initialy thought. To combine sound of two channels working in the same wrench but be able to expand each other dynamically is sound good as a concept but in a practical terms so far I don't see myself to be even remotely effective. I don't make any conclusion for now but so far I am nowhere.
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Posted by Paul S on
12-06-2022
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I do not understand from what you said the sorts of problems you are dealing with. What are you using as high and low-pass X/Os. Where and how you cross the drivers can make huge differences in the sound. Also, how did you throttle back Macando to match Tannoy efficiency? Combing is always a problem with multiple drivers, and it can even be a big problem that "suddenly disappears" if treated "correctly", in terms of the installation. I understand that you have removed your ribbon and now you use only the Tannoy tweeter for HF. Just in mechanical terms, shooting that tweeter at horn bells will affect its dispersion and so the sound at the listening seat, critical if it's presently the only HF source. Where, in terms of frequency, does the Tannoy tweeter kick in now?
Best regards,
Paul S
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Posted by Bill on
01-11-2023
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Per your recommmendation at your last visit, wish to try using your injection channel with the Dannoy with my horns.Are you using the tannoy only as a tweeter? If so, would you recommend my removing my tweeter and using only the tannoy's, or use both? If so , are you only using the tweeter or also the 10 inch driver? If only the tweeter, why the box, as the tweeter is sealed, and doesn't require the box?If using both tweeter and 10 inch, what is the lower crossover point you are using?
Bill
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