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Topic: A chicken and egg situation

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Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-04-2016

It was 7 years ago. I was living in downtown Boston for 16 years and enjoying the opportunity to step out of my apartment at 3AM and to meet women who can afford plastic surgery. Then I felt that I was getting to old to be in city and I move to suburbs. The thread “Midbass Horns and Real Estate.”

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=11190#11190

…was conceived at that time that lead to new listening room, the hidden midbass horns and many other this you have witnessed over the last years.
As the 7 years elapsed there is a lot of change in my life. I got married, we have a child. We wants to have more kids. We both work full time, so with more kids we would like to have live-in help. It is not mention that my wife drives 65 miles one way to her new job. Looking at all of it Amy and I begin to think about moving to a new larger home. We are not planning to sell out current home and we are planning to return to it as we retire. The real-estate things are becoming interesting again.

I kind of begin to strategize what kind listening room I want, what kind relationship I would like to stress in my new listening room between my audio interests and my “civilian” family interest. I have many idea but I have no concussions at this point. I am allocating this thread to the subject and very much would like to hear from others who have passed this period in their life.
Rgs, Romy the Cat

Posted by Paul S on 02-04-2016

More kids? Basically, bigger is better as far as accommodating a family AND hi-fi, IMO. I include my own family life experience along with my hi-fi/listening experience when I suggest a large, "available" room for listening, as well. In other words, this room is basically for listening, but it is not at all "off limits" for the family; in fact, they are specifically "invited" in. The typical modern house has a "great room" that usually includes the kitchen, and this type of room could serve... in a pinch. But it has worked out best for me, personally, when I've had a room that was "accessible" but did not literally include the kitchen, and the others in the house have had places where they could "get away" from my Wagner, etc., and at the same time they would not bother me when they went about other business as I listened. Square footage wise, I am in 3,500 square feet with 2 others in this house right now, on 1 level, and I have to say, I like it. I wish my listening room were bigger, but the idea is good for family living, IMO. I know in the East it's all about the number of rooms, but don't underestimate the value and specific configuration of space when considering a home for family and hi-fi, together.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by scooter on 02-04-2016

If you want to keep this second house, think carefully what to do with it.

- Unoccupied houses tend to decay incredibly rapidly. I was in Spain a few years ago checking out new apartments on the coast. Build quality was good but just four or five years of no occupancy left every place we looked at in bad shape. There was some vandalism and illegal occupation. But our architect said that the water damage (some from rain entry and some from piping) and resulting mold (seen and hidden) rendered almost every building we saw, "Ready or just about ready for demolition."

- Renting can be a good option to cover expenses and make sure the place is occupied. However, lawyers have told me that Massachusetts rental rules strongly favor tenants, leaving the landlords with limited rights. Interestingly, next door in Connecticut, the situation is significantly different.

One example, which I am positive does not reflect on all Bostonians. We have a family friend (a tough union construction guy) who purchased a few units to rent near Boston. After 10 years of landlord experience, he said virtually every tenant eventually stopped paying, trashed their apartment, and after 1-2 years of legal wrangling was finally evicted (by courts, via payments, or...). Of course, for each tenant, the friend was out rent for 1+ year, significant legal fees, and significant remodeling fees.

He said these tenants weren't lawyers but they knew their rights surprisingly well and were happy to push the landlord to the limit. He finally sold the units and said, "Never again."

EDIT - Note tax implications of second house also. Given the high US tax rates, efficient tax structuring can make a huge difference.

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-04-2016

Well, we were thinking to rent out the old hours, there are obvious cones and pros but the topic would not rise to the subject of this site. What interests me in context of the site is the requirement to the new listening room. I still would like to do the same that I did in my current house: an integration of listening room with main gathering living room. my more experienced with family life friends are keep telling me that it is foolish but I still like the idea. The way how I envision it is to be an conversion room between what they call great room, listening room and opera room. I still would like to have there midbass horns but I doubt that I will be able to repeat my architectural success of my current listening room. No matter what I would like do not see the midbass horns in the room and if I will not be able to make them invisible and time-aligned then I will not go for midbass horns. A minor exemption would be if we get land and built a house from scratch, which is also being contemplated. If se I am a bit perplexed what version of midbass I would like to render.

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-04-2016

Whatever I thinking I am again and again return the design idea below. They thin might be even covered by drapes in the room and wify would LOVE that. The idea is elegant and non-intrusive. The key would be to have some math and to calculate the none-linearity of the mouth opening at the turn into the room. that none-linearity of surface change shall be offset by the triangle opening in the internal wall. It will not be the perfect triangle as I drew it but it will be a complex parabolic triangle. The idea is to have the triangle to compensate and to offset the any deviation from linear horn volume expansion. I do like the idea and I think it is very much accomplishable. Even more, I can make the triangle adjustable and then I can theoretically offset the standing ways that might come from the need to turn the horn at 90 degree.

Posted by Paul S on 02-05-2016
fiogf49gjkf0d So, from here you have to find a house that has an otherwise acceptable room that looks like this? Or is this the case where you start from scratch? There has to be a "safer" way to try for mid-bass if you start from scratch? Best regards, Paul S

Posted by zztop7 on 02-05-2016

If you buy a used house, find an inspector who is also a qualified structural engineer. I do my own inspections because 95% of the inspectors are idiots.Once I have found the problems, that list is multiplied by 10. Now I know what the house future holds.
If you buy a new house you will probably get a ONE year warranty. You know why? Because the engineer cannot trust the architect, the architect cannot trust the general contractor, the general contractor cannot trust the subcontractors, the subcontractors cannot trust his employees, etc.
You will often hear real estate people & contractors proudly speak of "the house was built to code". CODE = MINIMAL ACCEPTABLE STANDARDS. You actually will not even get that. About the local municipal Housing Department Inspectors: I have never seen an inspector enter a crawl space or climb a ladder.
OK, so we know that the first & most important housing consideration is your location preference. Now for the second most important thing that you will never hear people talk about: THE FOUNDATION. It is easy in comparison to change or replace almost anything else. FOUNDATION, FOUNDATION, FOUNDATION.
Just my 2 cents,zz.

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-11-2016

It is interesting lately to think about a new listening room as a concept. We looked at a few good house that for this or that reason did not work for us and one had a very good listening room, just a phenomenal location in the house. A tall cathedral ceiling with great view from window (Amy likes to look at a lake), connected to rest of hour with wide open plan …but the room itself is too small: 20 by 24. The 24xby24 room with open floor and cathedral top is not a bad room. However, I invision now a slightly different duty for the room.
I have 5 requirements for my listening room now.

1)      It has to accommodate (to seat) 6-8 listeners
2)      It has to have “no compromise” one listening chair in the “sweet spot”
3)      It has integrate the “Opera room” via large screen drop
4)      It has to have a side-located fireplace
5)      It has to accommodate 10-14 social room visitors
6)      It has to have plenty room for no audio time spending, including kids playing.
7)      It has to accommodate piano and Amy’s quarters events

So, playing with various scenario of furniture and speakers position I concluded that my new listening room has to be around 26 by 34. Thai is a typical of typical American 3-cars garage and many people build a “great room” above the garage.

Posted by Paul S on 02-11-2016

Yes, there is no substitute for space. A related consideration it that some useful rooms (like bedrooms, library, etc.) need to be away from the influence of the Music Room, so those who wish it can do something else while Music is being played. Again, no substitute for square footage, but the "floor plan" is also important.

Which brings us to "charging" the giant, open room... Sure, "live" surfaces help; but there must also be enough "horsepower" to vitalize the listening space. The "pros" might do this by "directing" sound to the main listening seat. (like the giant Westlake SMs) My own choice would be to charge all or much of the space, if I could figure out how to do it. Very few home systems will really charge a room like you describe, let alone systems you can still listen "into".

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by xandcg on 02-11-2016
fiogf49gjkf0d Romy, I think if you find a room a bit more deeper, like 40 feet your project will work better. The extra space will allow more easily to have a second ambient room, then the social visitors should not disturb the musical affairs/visitors. But be aware I personally prefer deeper rooms... May I ask you why do you not make one from scratch?

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-12-2016

Wify was asking me about my ideas about midbass horns at one nice property that we looked. Her innocent question made me to think. I do look at my prospective listening room from point of view of introducing midbass horns. I am not planning to make midbass horns visible in the room and then only way how I will introduce them would be hidden, the same way how I did it at my current listening room. I do very much realize that the way how I did it at my current room is time-aligned and unique, I very much doubt that I will be able to replicate this concept at my new listening room, even I keep my eyes opened for it. Whatever idea I have in my head I keep asking myself a question: if I would be able to hide the midbass horn in my listening room but it will be done with time-alignment then do I want to have this midbass horn? From hat I stay now I doubt that would go doe midbass if not going to be time-aligned. I still would go for separation of midbass and ULF but I would go for time-aligned direct radiators.

Posted by Paul S on 02-12-2016

I would have to believe there were big sonic gains in store before I went through the trouble of designing, building, testing, (and re-building) and integrating giant horns in any house. Romy, as I recall, you already have enough 15" drivers on hand for direct mid-bass, if you choose that? ~IB cabinets should not be a big design problem, and you can spend the time, money and effort you save somewhere else. Or maybe we're back to tapped horns? You never did comment on those re: mid-bass. Anyway, a really big room seems to give you more options on this score.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-13-2016

Romy the Cat wrote:
It is interesting lately to think about a new listening room as a concept. We looked at a few good house that for this or that reason did not work for us and one had a very good listening room, just a phenomenal location in the house. A tall cathedral ceiling with great view from window (Amy likes to look at a lake), connected to rest of hour with wide open plan …but the room itself is too small: 20 by 24. The 24xby24 room with open floor and cathedral top is not a bad room. However, I invision now a slightly different duty for the room.
I have 5 requirements for my listening room now.

1)      It has to accommodate (to seat) 6-8 listeners
2)      It has to have “no compromise” one listening chair in the “sweet spot”
3)      It has integrate the “Opera room” via large screen drop
4)      It has to have a side-located fireplace
5)      It has to accommodate 10-14 social room visitors
6)      It has to have plenty room for no audio time spending, including kids playing.
7)      It has to accommodate piano and Amy’s quarters events

So, playing with various scenario of furniture and speakers position I concluded that my new listening room has to be around 26 by 34. Thai is a typical of typical American 3-cars garage and many people build a “great room” above the garage.

I have been thinking a lot lately. This idea of moving pushed on surface a of aspects that make me to think again and again. I would not bother the readers of my site with collaboration of dilemmas to move to North Mass vs. south of NH, this is kind of audio site. Still, the whole notion of moving made me to reevaluate a few things that I felt I was tithe settled with. We do look for a large house and I many of them have the Great Rooms that very much could comply with my objective above. We are opened to an idea to get a house with no listening room and build attach room to my specification. To a degree it would compromise the notion of integration but with proper house it might be done very nicely. Still, even thought I have a very clear vision how it might be done I am not settled if it is what I want and if it is what would be right thing to do.

You see, quite a number of folks that I spoke do not feel that my idea of listening room integrated in the whole household experience is such a great notion. I disagree with them but they have something that I do not- experience with the subject. Arriving Thomas did severely compromise my listening experience because of multiple reasons. I can only imagine how would it be if we have let say 3 kids. So, I am wondering if I need to mitigate my objective and have rather a semi-dedicated listening room. It would not serve just isolationist objectives but to be room where great sound might be accomplished by way of less expensive efforts as the notion of hiding sonic means would not be on a picture. That type of room might not be a grandiose Great Room as I am envisioning now:

http://d31eqxppr3nlos.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/18great-room-feb18.jpg

... run rather a modest regular room. That type of room is MUCH easier to fine and it would free up a lot of demands for the type of the house we might want. I do not particularly feel that it would be some kind of roll back. When I lived in city I had a very small room and I had truly spectacular Sound. If I go this direction not I can do a room 3-4 time larger that would give me so much room to play. I do not know, I truly conflicted now. I do have envy o the guys who build audio installations and do not need to hide cables, make sure that record washing machine matches the room décor and to do not worry that kid will turn knob on crossover and screw up your super precise ULF calibration. From another perspective I love my family and love my kids and the time I spend in "audio isolation" I feel that I in way betray them. Still, unless a huge amount of efforts/money spent to make a complex and serious playback to be completely integrated and non-intrusive it means to make playback compromised. So, I am very much conflicting where I would like to go from now or what kin model of my new playback I would like to render in new home. Knowing myself I do feel that I might be successful with ether of direction but the direction of integrated room impose so much more demands to the house we might consider. I am not sure if I need to impose this demands to my family and if it make me happier on a long run. One day I have a fantasy about fully integrated room, as I have now, and all my family spend time in there. Another day I fantasize about a dedicated multi-media room (hate this word) but implemented by my standards, sort of an extended and enlarged version of our current Opera room but with Macondo. I do not know, I guess a need a psychologist....

The Cat

Posted by Paul S on 02-13-2016

Romy, it seems like you are basically talking values and value here. No way to know for sure ahead of time how your children will take to Music, let alone hi-fi, and also no way to be sure now how long any interest will last, or how long you will live in your next house, etc. This is all part and parcel of family life. Like I said before, I would not have the kitchen in my listening room if I had a choice, and I say this because I enjoy being able to listen to music while others in the house do other things. Believe me, kids not only get less needy over time, they wind up developing their own agendas to the point where you actually find yourself missing them. However, you still might want to listen to Music when you are the only one in the house who wants to do so at the time, and I think you will find over time that this is no small consideration. Again, I never had significant problems with my children messing with my gear - until my then 35 year old son broke the cantilever on my top line Grado!

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by zztop7 on 02-13-2016

Hi Romy, If you are going to add a structure/addition to an existing house, or add a detached structure several things must be investigated. A few are the local building codes such as what is allowed and setbacks from existing property lines determined by a current survey. If you build a quality super-insulated structure [slab, floor, walls, ceiling, windows, door/doors, you might investigate just putting electric heat in the slab to maintain 55-60 degrees. Very easy with super-insulated & no rushing air noise. The tubes & lights will bring the temperature up fast after that. I am not sure if electric resistance heating will have any effect on components. OR wall radiators with boiler; minimal noise depending on the radiators. zz.

Posted by Corallus on 02-13-2016

Paul S wrote:
Romy, it seems like you are basically talking values and value here. No way to know for sure ahead of time how your children will take to Music, let alone hi-fi, and also no way to be sure now how long any interest will last, or how long you will live in your next house, etc. This is all part and parcel of family life. Like I said before, I would not have the kitchen in my listening room if I had a choice, and I say this because I enjoy being able to listen to music while others in the house do other things. Believe me, kids not only get less needy over time, they wind up developing their own agendas to the point where you actually find yourself missing them. However, you still might want to listen to Music when you are the only one in the house who wants to do so at the time, and I think you will find over time that this is no small consideration.

Best regards,
Paul S

It is so true what Paul was write. I also have family(two kids) with I love to the end. And I also Have been In that "romantic" illusion to spend time with all family and audio in my living room. But when times go on it was not a pleasure it it was a terror for me and and also for my family. It just not working whoever you are.
Best regards
Corallus

Posted by xandcg on 02-13-2016

I fail to see why a dedicated audio room *should* be isolationist. If there are enough space (or good planning) the room can be made as a separated structure but at same time as a continuation of the whole house, allowing people to be there without disturbing the audio affairs, and at same time not disturbing the house affairs.

I used to have a separated construction like that, very small, and the house was almost all the time empty because everyone was in there all the time. Guests usually do feel more welcome since they are not "invading your privacy", because that is not your *real* house.

At same time if you need privacy or isolation you can have all you need because there are the house aside.

I think the point to make it work were in small details related of how you decorated and planned the space, in a meaning there need to have a reserved space for people to be in with a degree of comfort and independence of what you are doing. IMO the real secret is a nice attached bathroom. EDIT: a degree of commercial apparency help a lot too.

I always think in a dedicated audio room (for me) with a dedicated "Bar Zone" at end of the room, I do not see the point of a dedicated listening room with one chair...

Anyway, interior design specialists can help a lot with those details. Even the mess of cables and things around can be planned to be part of decoration too.

Posted by anthony on 02-13-2016

...like their own music when they can put it on, and they are 4 and 7 years old. Once they were old enough to negotiate with (somewhere around 2yo) they learned very quickly not to touch my stereo gear and the lessons have stuck to this day.

I love to flood the house with music. My kids love it and if there is nothing playing they will often put on their own bedroom systems and put music into the house. My wife is not always so keen about music loud or otherwise and sometimes just wants silence and often this corresponds with the time that I am in the mood to listen, and if it is appropriate I will close a door and we are both happy. But if I open that door I am reintegrated with the house and all of the family can, and do, use the room for recreation.

I think that the important thing is to have a listening room that is nice to be in. If it pleases your family and yourself to be in there then it will be used. If it is "Dads Space" and they have little say in when and how it is used then they will use it less often. On the other hand if it is a totally communal space then it is likely that there will be some sort of friction over its use from time to time. Eventually, the kids will want to listen to music in which you have no interest, or they will become immersed in other pursuits and their use of the room will vary and their tolerance to disturbances will be lower and I think that it is important that they have space available to follow those pursuits in their own comfort perhaps in another part of the house. How the listening room is used will vary with time, and in my opinion and how I would use it there needs to be flexibility in its integration with the rest of the house: open and inviting and accessible for parties and general family entertainment; in a position to flood the house with music; able to stem that flood of music to the rest of the house when it is appropriate.

Posted by Paul S on 02-13-2016
fiogf49gjkf0d Yes, Anthony, generally speaking, that is the best of all worlds, and IMO it's worth aiming for from the outset. Specifics beyond this are gilding the lily. I have given up some hi-fi specific "goals" in order to have a version of the situation you've recommended, and I would do it again. Best regards, Paul S

Posted by clarkjohnsen on 02-13-2016

When I was designing The Listening Studio (a business, of sorts) I had 4000 sq.ft. of floor at my disposal. Only the ceiling was fixed : A slanted oak-beamed roof of 14' to 16' height. After considerable thought I hit upon a solution: I would make the room dimensions embody the proportions of Symphony Hall, Boston. That gave me a ~1000 sq.ft. room -- 49 x 22. The speakers would be at the narrow end, and behind them I built a control/equipment room. The speaker cables would run through the wall. The two walls I constructed were somewhat slanted to discourage standing waves; the other two were brick.

It seemed to work well.

Originally I made the room LEDE, but after a few years was shown the error of my way. Subsequently I utilized Roomtunes and ASC Tube Traps.

The loudspeakers were VMPS towers, which were easily able to activate the space.

So what's my point? That, even given a great room, it will almost certainly take several years to whip it into shape. Probably the larger the space, the longer the time.

In my opinion Romy and Amy's Opera Room is the most beautiful and comfortable listening/viewing place I've ever been in. Something like that should be in any new house too. Or call it a Retreat Room.

clark

Posted by Paul S on 02-14-2016

Clark, your point is well taken, but I understood we have been talking about whether or how to achieve a working balance between high-demands audio and a growing, young family, with an eye on Romy's present "main" system/investment. Are you saying that the setting allows the Valencias to offer "more" than Macondo? I will say that I have a hard time reconciling accommodations for a large group with SOTA sound; but this seems to be what's up for discussion. Way back when I brushed semi-regularly with Hollywood notables, I saw many "screening rooms"/home theaters that were just that, with tiered seating, the works. And even back then, sound was part of it, and the moguls had, naturally, "theater" sound systems that did load those big rooms. But I have supposed we are talking more of a large room, per se, than a theater here, and we have been charged to come up with a way to get good sound in a fairly fluid and very "public", large space.

And yes, it might well take years, with the "goals" changing as the kids grow up, and the family transforms accordingly.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by clarkjohnsen on 02-14-2016

I wasn't validating the audio components -- was just saying it's a wonderful room, relaxed, comfortable, good sound (not Macondo) and I would say family- and child-friendly.

In my large Studio room I had chairs placed on the perpendicular bisector, each position yielding pretty good imaging.

At home now I'm reduced to 30', but audio has become less important to me so there's just a wide, comfortable sofa, an 8' screen (JVC projector) and two VMPS towers. Most people say it's the best sound they've ever heard for at-home movies. Like Romy, I find two channels not only sufficient but best. Some viewers even prefer sitting further back.

Important note: The screen is at sofa-viewer head height, no neck straining.

cj

Posted by Paul S on 02-14-2016

Well, Clark, you've been in my "empty nester" space, and not much has changed since then, except my granddaughters are now in their mid-teens. I seem to be in a perfect position to go balls out in the space, but the truth is, I no longer wish to cut myself off entirely anymore in order to get the "best possible" Sound, at least, not often. And this may be the crux of the matter for any number of us, that we actually want to "be able to" share the experience if the opportunity arises. I remember years ago, Sarah and I had some "artsy" friends over for a nice dinner, and I was playing Nat King Cole, Billie Holiday, etc. pretty darn LOUD, like the old restaurants with live "dinner music", or even the jazz bars of yore. Hell, I guess I used to do that pretty often! I have to laugh now, remembering how well it all worked at the time (for me, anyway...). Today I cannot imagine "intruding" so much into a gathering with my Music, even at home. I think now the "optional" listening room is the best fit for me, and to keep it "socially flexible" is definitely a "compromise" in terms of hi-fi, per se.

And just because I've made little progress does not mean I've given up on a R+L-blended center channel to add to my present (or similar) stereo set-up.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Romy the Cat on 02-17-2016

I need to say that I am beginning to “get” the people who advocate “isolated” rooms. Thomas begins to walk and he is becoming a self-propelling weapon of mass destruction. At this point I do not mind to see him to be lock out of my listening room’s equipment. I underrated that it will be a short people of time between he learn to walk and begin to obey restrictions. I wonder when a kid begin to understand where he should not go and what he should not touch?

Posted by anthony on 02-17-2016
fiogf49gjkf0d ...maybe a little earlier they will start to be able to be negotiated with and take directions and play by the rules. If you are lucky they become pliable at about 18 months of age. It is a long time to wait...and then there are the children that follow.

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