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Posted by de charlus on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Haha! Very good. As a matter of fact, Adrian, I had one Intended whom, and much to my annoyance, simply refused to like red wine. She'd come up with all manner of fictional flavors to dislike in any given wine, and the more I tried to find something that she'd enjoy, the more she resisted me. Finally, on one of my birthdays, I had a dinner party at which I served a number of wines, the highlight of which sent everyone - myself included - into raptures, whilst she said "actually, this isn't bad at all. You should buy more of this stuff, and I'll certainly join you in drinking it. I at last concede that you're right, and that not every red wine is horrid". And the wine in question? Mouton-Rothschild 1945 en magnum. I'll pop down to the supermarket and get right on that.
de Charlus
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Posted by drdna on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Ha, the joke's on you. The SAME wine (albeit not en magnum) is the one which Michelle holds up as the paragon against which all else are judged. And here I bought a case of the 1989 Mouton at the corner grocery as it was on sale along side the day old bread, but she claims it's not the same. Fortunately, most any wine improves dramatically after the first glass. It's hard to say whether this predicament is better to be in that one with an old college friend of mine whose highest compliment for wine is "it goes down smooth!"
Adrian
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Posted by de charlus on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Yes, I have a few acquaintances who have damned the vinous pearls that I've cast before them with the very faintest of praise. One said that a 1990 Montrachet Ramonet was "as good as Cloudy Bay". Actually, although the Mouton was pretty special, along with certain vintages of Cheval-Blanc, Petrus, Lafite etc etc, I personally feel that the paragons of wine emanate almost exclusively from Burgundy; DRC, Dujac (I was at Oxford with Seysses Jr, giving me access to some spectacular Dujacs) Dugat, Dugat-Py, Meo-Camuzet, de Vogue for reds, along with Ramonet, Sauzet, Coche-Dury, Comte Lafon, Marquis de Laguiche, Dom. Leflaive, Dauvissat in whites to my mind easily exceed all but the most exceptional vintages of the most exceptional estates in Bordeaux. Also, humbly-priced Mosel and Alsace Rieslings routinely kick the ass of almost all other whites; Trimbach Clos St. Hune Hors Choix is just stellar, as well as pretty much anything from Egon Muller, although the Scharzhofberger vineyard is my favorite - the Auslese Lange Goldcap No. 29, Beerenauslese and TBAs amongst others are pretty much unimpeachable, and to my mind the Eiswein is the world's greatest dessert wine. Muller's Scharzhofberger Spatlese is to my mind the greatest wine that can be had for $20-30 in most vintages.
As for Bruckner/wine matching, I had one of those transcendent experiences recently with Bruckner No.7 and the '95 Charmes-Chambertin from Dugat - just sublime, although in this instance I can add no knowledge to the refined sphere of music/wine/women matching, since none were available at the time, on the whole a positive thing since there was more of that unctuous, lovely Burgundy for me, and I ran no risk of being told that it was "even better than Casa Lapostolle Merlot" - whew.
de Charlus
PS Adrian, I sampled a bottle of '89 Mouton-Rothschild recently from the cellar, and found it to be entering into one of those "closed" periods that fine claret tends to do at certain intervals in its lifetime. I don't know if yours was the same, but it would be interesting to find out.
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Posted by drdna on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d I agree that the most perfect wine I have tasted is from Burgundy, but I personally find the system of classification a bit too exhausting for me to be able to find good bottles versus mediocre ones, so I am tend to stay in the realm of Bordeaux, with which I am more familiar. There is so much variability in Burgundy, I find it hard to predict success with any given bottle. Probably the same reason I stick with symphonies versus choral pieces when I listen to different performances.
No question that the '89 is closed down, and it will require a bit of patience to see if it will ever come around...
Adrian
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Posted by de charlus on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Oh, it'll come round for sure - 4-5 years should do it. As for the Bordeaux vs. Burgundy thing, the thing to take on board is that it's purely to do with producers; a villages wine from a great producer such as the ones I just mentioned will frequently exceed the Grand Cru of a negociant or crappy grower. I'm not exaggerating either; the Bourgogne Blanc from Meo-Camuzet is without any doubt better than some negociant Grand Crus, since what a great producer, who may be getting as little as 8hl/ha from their vineyards, rejects from their 1er and Grand Crus is qualitatively greatly superior to the negociant who buys from cynical growers who extract the greatest yields possible - sometimes 30-50hl/ha - from their parcels of 1er and Grand Cru vineyards. This is what bothers people chiefly about Burgundy, but the difficulties can be overcome with a little expertise; for that matter, the growth in wine expertise among the populous has been responsible for the rise in the median quality of Burgundy - and also the demand, and thus price, for the serious wines - since cynical growers and negociants can no longer get away with what they've been doing for the last few hundred years. In any case, the Bordeaux "growth" system, ostensibly so straightforward compared to the confusion of Burgundy, was instituted by grading wines purely by the prices they were fetching at the time (1855) so in many cases it no longer reflects the truth; Pomerol was largely ignored at the time of classification, and yet it is now Petrus, Le Pin, La Mondotte etc that are found at the summit of prices and buyer esteem - Petrus certainly deserves 1st growth classification, and has for a very long time indeed. On the whole it works, but it's remarkably static, with the effect that there are some 2nd, 3rd and even 5th growth Bordeaux - to say nothing of the "no growth" of Pomerol - which should arguably be 1st growths now - together with some 2nd growths which should probably be demoted - and then you have the bizarre situation of Cheval-Blanc and d'Yquem having their very own appellations ostensibly superior to the rest, although in the case of d'Yquem, this is probably correct. Anyway, the bottom line is that you can't really go wrong with any of the producers I mentioned above - along with a few perhaps not stellar, but certainly very good, such as Pousse d'Or, Comte Armand, Roty, Gouges, Gros, Ponsot etc - in vintages decent and above. Outside of such notables, one should tread carefully; good wines do come from the most obscure producers, particularly in great vintages, but considerable expertise and an eidetic memory are required to amass sufficient understanding to easily negotiate the admittedly complex area that is Burgundy, since the pursuit of bargains in particular is fraught with pitfalls.
de Charlus
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Posted by drdna on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d  de charlus wrote: | | ...good wines do come from the most obscure producers, particularly in great vintages, but considerable expertise and an eidetic memory are required to amass sufficient understanding to easily negotiate the admittedly complex area that is Burgundy, since the pursuit of bargains in particular is fraught with pitfalls. |
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Ah, that must be my problem, as I am a frugal enthusiast! My one unhesitating full-price purchase of a PurePower 2000 was catastrophic, when the company fell on hard times, and I never got my unit back from repairs. However, I am still trying to get them to send me a replacement YEARS later. Perhaps a futile attempt...
Adrian
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Posted by de charlus on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Oh good grief, that really sucks; I didn't know that PP had fallen on quite such hard times, since I recall reading in other threads about people who'd purchsed the 3000 quite recently - is the problem that they've moved on from the 2000, misplaced your unit and thus cannot replace it?
Yes, being a frugal Burgundy enthusiast is destined to be a frustrating enterprise, but there are still a few bargains to be had, most notably the Nuits St-Georges of Henri Gouges, IMHO. The 1er Cru Les St. Georges is probably the best, but the 1er Crus of les Vaucrains, Pruliers and Clos de Porrets are really good, and even the Nuits Villages is excellent and quite rich in good vintages. Most interestingly of all, perhaps, is the 1er Cru of Chaignots, on the Vosne-Romanee side of the domain, for it exhibits all the force and richness of the Gouges Nuits St. Georges style, but with a touch of that inimitable Vosne-Romanee silkiness and refinement. Other than these wines, the Volnays of Pousse d'Or, as previously discussed, are a great bargain, but I strongly recommend the wines of Gouges, especially before they rise to prices that reflect their quality and aging potential. You won't be disappointed.
Regards
de Charlus
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Posted by drdna on
08-04-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d It is detailed elsewhere on the website, but when I sent my PP2000 to be repaired, I received endless promises. It turned out the company was going through a major crisis with a Chinese manufacturer and distributor trying to usurp the brand. They eventually seem to have recovered as of last month, and I know Romy loves his PP3000+. I have yet to see my unit replaced, despite contacting the company every few months over the past couple years, and getting promised that it is on its way. I will believe it when I see it.
Henri Gouges? Hm, I will look out for some of this.
Adrian
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Posted by clarkjohnsen on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d ...of wines and power conditioners and Bruckner and cigars. That said, I don't do cigars; I really, really do do Bruckner; power conditioners vary in their effect from place to place, day to day, and hour to hour (not only that, but most of them need vibration isolation too!) so I pass on them; but vin fin, although I love the stuff, is something I must read about more than I drink. And I've enjoyed this discussion despite being unable to afford such things today.
However, I have a couple each of '62 and '67 d'Yquem and '59 Steinberger TBA (or BA?). I expect they're ready but can't offhand match any Bruckner symphony so does anyone have recommendations?
clark
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Posted by de charlus on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Clark, as long as the d'Yquems have been well-cellared - and this is easily determined by looking at level, seepage and color - they should both be very good right now, although the 67 is the star. Most 62 Sauternes are over the hill now, but fortunately d'Yquem is a special case; you should drink it quite soon though. As for the 59 Steinberger BA or TBA, 59 was a great vintage in the Mosel, but I'd have to know more about the wine, specifically the producer. If it's the 59 Steinberger that I've come across, the TBA vastly exceeds the BA in quality, but once again, unless your bottle is from one of the top two or three producers - and I know that all that Gothic script can be a little wearisome to unravel - it should probably be consumed, and enjoyed, now. I find that there's something truly luxuriant about letting the strains of something ravishingly beautiful wash over me as I sip on a divine nectar; personally, I'd drink the 67 with the 7th, the 62 with the 8th, and the TBA with the 9th, but that's just my opinion - each would be delectable with each.
de Charlus
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Clark, I am with all seriousness inform you that the best match for your exotic wine will be drinking this wine with me. We can even manage to open the bottles with opening bars of the Haas version of the last movement of the 8th symphony. What might be more triumphal? I facilitate Bruckner and the rest of logistics and you facilitate the wine.
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Posted by Paul S on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d I don't know much about old TBAs, but d'Yquem (like many of the finest French wines) is actually pretty hard to ruin! Since aged d'Yquem is so dear now, I have a nice stash from a near neighbor to that plot, and I will think sympathetically of Clark and Romy the next time I sip (through) a bottle (while listening to Bruckner, of course). Mazel Tov!
Paul S
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Posted by de charlus on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Tokaji Essencia, Mosel Eiswein, some of the Massandras and the best BAs and TBAs are pretty much indestructible, but this is not to say that the bad vintages of Sauternes last forever (the other wines I list above are only made in great vintages) although d'Yquem can be the exception to the rule to some extent, although people tend to ruin them by assuming them immortal. The great vintages can go on forever though; I had a bottle of 1821 on my 21st birthday (but 1821 was a legendary vintage) and did a vertical tasting a few years back of every significant vintage from 1995 to 1811, which was very impressive but then, the wines came from the cellar of the chateau, so one would expect that. It is Riesling, however, that really ages; I once had a 1697 Rudesheimer Apostlewein TBA that still exhibited acidity and balance, when most really ancient wines are merely curios.
de Charlus
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Posted by clarkjohnsen on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d
I hate you.
c
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Posted by de charlus on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d The honor is mine, sir.
de Charlus
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Posted by Paul S on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d No doubt, then, you've also enjoyed the celebrated ancient Champagnes that the rest of us have only heard about?
It's on my bucket list...
And now I'm starting to think, Romy and Amy should just head straight for Dijon, maybe catch some chamber music or a chorale...
Best regards,
Paul S
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Posted by de charlus on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Yes, I have, but there aren't nearly so many around as people think. It is only the austere, often Blancs de Blancs style that's well suited to prolonged aging, most particularly those wines coming from the Clos de Mesnil, or just the ultra-rich, masculine style as exemplified by Krug. Dom Perignon falls into the former category, and I've enjoyed the 21, 26 and 43 in particular. Krug 28 is rightly legendary, whilst the Krug Clos de Mesnil Blancs de Blancs and Salon de Mesnil - one of the unspoken secrets of the wine world - are excellent in 11, 21, 28, 43, 59 and 71. The same can be said of venerable Pol Roger, both standard vintage but particularly Cuvee Winston Churchill being stunning in 21 and 28 - the 90 is certainly something to fill your cellar with though; it will age like a dream. Another Champagne that ages very well is Bollinger Vielle Vignes Francais, made from a small package of ancient, pre-phyloxera vines giving minute yields of Pinot Noir, making the wine a Blancs de Noirs. The 69 and 71 are breathtaking. Also, Bollinger does a series of "RD" wines - "reccement degorgement" - meaning that whilst they may indeed be 59, 71, 76, 82, 85 etc vintages, they have been left on their lees since bottling and are only disgorged upon release. These wines are unbelievably rich, toasty and nutty - hence all that lees exposure - and perfectly cellared since they've lain at Bollinger since just before release. I had a dinner at Bollinger a few years back, wherein every one of 7 courses was more than ably accompanied by RD wines, the 76 in particular harmonizing beautifully with a blanquette de veau, the 71 being sufficiently rich to accompany a selection of cheeses. Caveat emptor! Almost all of these wines were consumed at the respective chateau; Champagnes intended for this kind of aging require perfect cellaring. I do hope that the above whet your whistle somewhat:-)
de Charlus
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Posted by drdna on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Clark,
Sweet on sweet is a bit too much for my palate. I would much prefer to enjoy d'Yquem with something austere to balance it. Sofia Gubaidulina's Offeratorium or Krzysztof Penerecki's The Awakening of Jacob come to mind as suitable choices...
Adrian
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Posted by drdna on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Totally agreed that the 90 Cuvee Winston Churchill is spectacular. I rarely drink champagne, but even I set aside a few bottles just in case.
Adrian
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Posted by de charlus on
08-06-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d There was no dessert wine per se during the Bolly meal; just ascending richness and intensity, coupled with a body so full as to be atypical even for a butch Champagne house like Bollinger. To my mind, Sauternes should be consumed with either Roquefort Papillon Noir, or Foie Gras torchon; these are pairings practically symphonic, and you're right, to pair something like an d'Yquem or Muller Eiswein with dessert - and perish the thought that it contains chocolate - is to overwhelm the dessert and clutter the wine's palate to no good end. So perfect are these synergies that it seems almost churlish to trifle with anything else. Much thought should be given to musical accompaniment, but the food/wine pairing itself is child's play, giving harmonies so wondrous, yet so perfectly obvious, that it makes little sense to go elsewhere. Wouldn't the crowning irony be the female partner who refuses to eat the ambrosia that is foie gras on moral grounds? Just like the anti-pipe fascists:-)
de Charlus
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Posted by de charlus on
08-07-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Oh, and yes, that is pretty much the Champagne sine qua non for aging; you've done really well there. 20-30 years is not unrealistic for the very best 90s, as includes even the 1990 Pol Roger Vintage. You need to be so careful to keep the bottle angled slightly downwards, giving the wine full contact with the cork; this is even more important than with normal wine, but then, you doubtless knew that. Good buy!
de Charlus
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Posted by Paul S on
08-07-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Note that I am responding late to the post about the "closed-down/dormant" '89 Bordeaux. For those who do not know, some great wines can be brought (back) to life by beating the hell out of them. I use a large Burgundy glass for about everything, and I have learned to get excited at the smell of "burning rubber" exhibited by certain big Bordeaux, as this may well presage greatness, as opposed to spoilage. In some extreme cases, a good. sound "beating" is just the ticket. One simply, persistently, aggressively swirls the wine around in the decanter, and if that doesn't work I have even shaken it up. I wish I had been aware of this "revival" method when I sadly drank an "over-the-hill" '52 Chateau Ausone in 1974!
Of course, although there are exceptions, one generally allows Burgundies to come up in the glass! But I recommend one never write off a great vintage of a great chateaux before you beat some sense into it.
Best regards,
Paul S
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Posted by de charlus on
08-07-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d As for your theory of forced oxygenation, I think that I would err on the side of a vigorous decanting, followed by a little patience. A 52 Ausone will never be a 61,, no matter what violence you perpetrate upon it. Aggressive oxygenation of young wines can certainly open up previously hidden flavor profiles for tasting purposes, but I would not address a "closed" 89 Mouton or 82 Cheval Blanc by flagellation; they will blossom in time, and sometimes in unexpected fashions, which one wouldn't wish to miss. I too use a Riedel Burgundy glass for most tasting purposes, since they hold so much of the bouquet; the only exception is the Riedel Riesling, which channels the seminal flavor elements to the areas of the palate where they will be best appreciated. IMHO Burgundy should not be decanted, merely care being taken to leave the lees in the bottle; we are, after all, dealing with relatively delicate, ephemeral properties here. That is, I suppose, unless you like "Parker" Burgundy like Dom. Leroy, which definitely benefits from aeration.
de Charlus
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Posted by Paul S on
08-07-2013
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fiogf49gjkf0d Yes, all that. Of course one never resorts to the paddles except in the most desperate cases. Once the bottle is open, however, this may at least make a silk purse from a sow's ear. On the other side, I got too early to a Montrose that seemed "young" at 35 years, and no amount of whipping would substitute for even more time in this case.
As for Leroy, we are fortunate that Parker's influence is not ubiquitous with this producer, for, although Leroy and DRC do have domains that seem more aimed at the Parker-ized these days, they (Thank God) also still offer some more traditional delights, as well.
Best regards,
Paul S
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