HookEm wrote:

I've heard so much about these legendary SET mono-blocks; but as I understand it, it's VERY important to match them up with proper (efficient) speakers.Anyway, I'd welcome some feedback on matching these amps with Lamhorn 1.8's + AER MD3B drivers (~100dB, 16 ohms).

HookEm wrote:

OK, would you say the weak link would then be: 1) Just the topology of Lamhorn (single driver with back-loaded horn appendix) 2) Any single driver back-loaded loudspeaker in general 3) Or any single driver loudspeaker in general Or perhaps a better question could be: Are there single driver speakers/topologies out there that would do justice to what the Lamm 2.0 is able to deliver? (if so, could the AER MD3B be the driver in a such a loudspeaker?) Thanks for the feedback.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Good question, HookEm. I would say my answer would be 2, “Any single driver back-loaded loudspeaker in general”. Do not get me wrong, driving your, or any other single drivers would do fine by ML2.0 and you will be able to feel the difference between this Lamm and most of other SETs, still in my mind the fundamental flows of the back-loaded single drivers will shine though with any other amps and with Lamms in particularly. It does not mean that it would not allow you to enjoy what you will be getting but my detaste of the back-loaded single drivers is well known, so here it went. In context of your original question and my feeling that it was irrelevant: let me to rephrase what I said. What you ask was irrelevant as (and it is very much in my view) the sonic problems deriving from mismatching SETs and loudspeakers are way under the radars of the sonic problems deriving from the back-loaded single driver topology. Rgs, Romy the Cat

Romy the Cat wrote:

HookEm, I could only advised you on methodological aspect as I do not extend any recommendations about purchasing decisions.  The 17x15 x11 is a very large room for a single driver speaker. If you insist to use a single driver speaker then get whatever you like from this topology and get to yourself some kind of $3K worth 211/845 integrated stereos SET. As you settle with the sound you get then you can bring Lamm 2.0 to to see if it worth to you. Lamm are monobloks, need a preamp, have large foot print and if it is your living room then your WAF might be hurt.   You will get more interesting sound with Lamms but then you will be able to see HOW more interesting it is and is it important to you. It is extra $10K and it is much more demands for playback. If I feel that I am OK with result I get from a single driver speaker then I would not go for Lamms. Again, it would be your decisions as only you know what you looking forward to get and what your definition is of "play music".

HookEm wrote:

… I'm not satisfied with the sound. …

…and what are the specific area of dissatisfaction? Can you write a list of what you feel is not right?

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

Romy the Cat wrote:

HookEm wrote: … I'm not satisfied with the sound. … …and what are the specific area of dissatisfaction? Can you write a list of what you feel is not right? http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432 Rgs, The caT

HookEm wrote:

The reproduction does not seem natural... too far away from what I would hear at a live event (e.g., female vocalist).  Sort of bright and fatiguing at times. I may not be using the proper terminology to describe it, but I do know (my ears & my head tell me) it just ain't right... it just doesn't sound like (or close enough to) real music/voices. I do realize there are a lot factors that can play into that, starting at the source, so I don't expect there's "magical" or "cure-all" answer - For exmaple: I do start with digital sources (I don't have a turntable & records), and that may not optimal, or how a "serious" systems should start; but, it's practical, and I'd like to explore making it work better if that's possible.

I do not know the Art Audio amp you use. As I underrated this is some kind of new production with PX-25 tube it might be anything, from something interesting to complete garbage.  What I know however that it is 6W and I do feel that it is not enough for your room. The ported yellow drivers  (that back loading horn is not horn but eventually wave-guiding port) can be wonderful MF driver but as soon then go to lower MF, not to mention to upperbass then sound goes to toilet. In your case the room has a toll sealing that creates LOT of low octave dissipation and you need a lot of power to fill it. If you pay attention than I pitched you 845/211 tube that would give you 20W not 6W. there is a problem however to pump more power into the back loaded yellow drivers. As exertion of them rise they sound worse with each octave down and what the sewer pipe the they call “horn” kick in then all lights are off and any “better amplifier” would not help.

For sure you can bring more powerful amp, or something like ML2 that is better sounding amp but it would not address the single yellow driver problem.  Sine you willing to stay with your single driver speakers (and there is nothing wrong with it) then it is an indication of efforts you willing to invest to get sound in your room. Please, do not feel that I accuse you that you are not willing to do something “more evolve”. That is perfectly fine; I just try to recommend you to think about a solution that would be coordinated with the rest of efforts. 

So, if I were in your place I would probably live everything as you have now but just high-pas the yellow driver at let say 200-250Hz (400Hz with over-second order will be the best) and put two cheap subwoofers next to the Lamhorns. This might or might not produce to you the sound that you want but it will unload lower octave from the yellow driver and it would give you an illustration how it might perform if it is not stressed. It is very possible that your IDH PX-25 SET will go very fine in there and then you will just realized that you need a dedicated LF solution. Do not forget to take notes and literally write to yourself what sonic changes you experience and what sonic problems you recognize.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I do have the answers about the right objectives but I have my reasons do not share them with you and I would like you to develop those answers for yourself.

Romy the Cat wrote:

... Sine you willing to stay with your single driver speakers (and there is nothing wrong with it) then it is an indication of efforts you willing to invest to get sound in your room. Please, do not feel that I accuse you that you are not willing to do something “more evolve”. That is perfectly fine; I just try to recommend you to think about a solution that would be coordinated with the rest of efforts.  So, if I were in your place I would probably live everything as you have now but just high-pas the yellow driver at let say 200-250Hz (400Hz with over-second order will be the best) and put two cheap subwoofers next to the Lamhorns. This might or might not produce to you the sound that you want but it will unload lower octave from the yellow driver and it would give you an illustration how it might perform if it is not stressed. It is very possible that your IDH PX-25 SET will go very fine in there and then you will just realized that you need a dedicated LF solution. Do not forget to take notes and literally write to yourself what sonic changes you experience and what sonic problems you recognize. Rgs, Romy the Cat

zztop7 wrote:

Edit:  I think it would be better if I said Solid Plated vs. Perforated Plate Output Tubes.   Perforated being the winner with 12 hours of listening - very easy.Best to you,  zz.

HookEm wrote:

Actually, I would prefer moving towards a more permanent solution (for practical, and frankly, economic reasons); and if that means moving away from the single driver (yellow cone), so be it... Now if having the subs in place would be also useful with a different speaker configuration, perhaps adding them now may be a good place to start?... about the crossover (200-250 Hz), would that be built-in to the (self-powered?) subs? (i.e., line out to sub, and from there, HP filtered to to the amp)... But perhaps adding subs would be overkill (or throw-away) if I move away from the "yellow cones"?... BTW, what is "IDH"?... As for taking notes: You bet!, I'm already taking notes!

Paul S wrote:

HE, you've gotten a long run so far without anyone asking if you've read the site.  Have you?  There are long threads on the Lamms and the Lowthers that might offer you some food for thought.  One thing I would recommend is playing with the ML2 "plate loading", including output taps, which is well-described in the ML2 thread, if you've not done so already.  And remember that the AERs and Lowthers notoriously hate subs, although they do sound much better when they are shed of LF, or anything approaching LF, not to mention getting more from the ML2s (by asking less) by using another amp for large/heavy drivers.  Likely, in terms of sub performance, you should not run your subs up as high as 400 Hz, 1st order; but it would probably be best for the Lammhorn sound if you could.  Although you will likely never shed the effects from the driver/speaker itself, no matter what you do, you might be able to get more of the sound or sound effects you want if you stay focused and systematic. Best regards, Paul S

HookEm wrote:

But, although it seems things are moving in a good direction, the overall presentation still seems a bit dry (not as fluid as my head tells me it should be).

Romy the Cat wrote:

... Yes, one more thing, very important. If you use your wife for the screen holding then do not forget to buy her a pearl necklace after the experiment. This will lubricate the sound in your listening room and make it less dry and abrasive. You will see, the next week she will ask you to make more audio experiments… :-) The Cat

Paul S wrote:

HE, from what you've said so far, much of what puzzles and interests you now has been thoroughly discussed here for years, and IMO you owe it to yourself to read extensively at this site.  As you begin to "get the idea" you will be better able to navigate on your own, and even your questions will bear more fruit.  Anything that's not already here will likely come up as a reference or link, or you will have the "background" necessary to "figure it out".  In any case, you will learn a lot in short order as your understanding of audio playback "transforms" from the usual gear shopping and swapping to something more personal and more focused on your appreciation of Music. Best regards, Paul S