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Posted by Stitch on
05-01-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d This week is the High End Show in Munich / Germany. It is a typical Show, maybe something more interesting, there is a Demo announced with a Horn Speaker System I never heard before, Silbatone with a Pair of WE 15a, Bass with Electro Voice 30W + 2x Altec 515B ...
And there is also something in Horn from Schimmel Voxativ Ampeggio, I think, that is a new Design..
Interestingly there is another High End Show from Manufacturers who decided to rent Hotel Rooms because they want to serve the visitors a better sonic Presentation. The Hotel is close to High End 2012 and they offer a Shuttle Service for Visitors, that they can visit both Shows. It is in the Marriott Hotel (for sure, there is a good Restaurant).Here is a link, the name is Hifideluxe Munich 2012
It is in German Language, here you can see the Manufacturers (tried English, but didn't work)
http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html
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Posted by Stitch on
05-04-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d I found a nice link with a lot of Pics
The first Pages show his Tour in Munich, a very nice Place in Germany with lots of History and a relaxed kind of Living (Food, Beergardens....), I think High End Pics will start at Page 8
http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-04-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Stitch. I looked through the pictures. This guy is known to travel audio events and do very nice images, I call him Asian Federated Mike. I did not find a lot of stimulation in the images, at least by juts looking at the images of the products that I do not know. The typical glossy rooms with matrix-like presentation. I wish those people do not just shot everything shotable but to shot ONLY what is interning in the rooms.
At the page 10 there is a funky horn installation from unknown to me company.
It looks like 3-way with time-misaligned tweeter. Looks like a new inversion of Avantgarde or somebody like this. Very silk pain job and very silk mast for tweeter. I wish somebody would invent the configuration like this when the upperbass driver did not screw up the view of the whole system. It is no surprise the then did not mount any drives in there – it would ruin the nice picture. The line up of the MF horns on the right look very nice – even though that they look like a pile of prostatic viganas. The different types and shapes indicate that have press that they can customaries – this is nice and very not frequently. It would be nice to know who they are and if they can do custom jobs.
There was Silbatone Acoustic room on page 12. The images were not too indicative or what it is. I need to shut up about it as if I do not than the retired archeologist Joe the Pimp will pop and again begun to threaten me with this typical ludicrous verbal defecation about Western Electric.
On the page 13 there is a new how setup from Cessaro. I like those guys and they do have some very good ideas, even if I do not endorse all of them. I would love to hear this top of the line installation, not in show condition and if I do travel again across Germany then Cessaro own demo room, perhaps in private setting would be the pace to visit.
Rgs,
Romy The Cat
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Posted by cv on
05-04-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d I had exactly the same thought...They're "elliptical JMLC" horns by autotech.pl. There are some threads on diyaudio, including:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns.html
and they have a website showing their myriad options at:
http://www.horns.pl/
Anyway, I've heard that they are very reasonably priced and well made/sturdy. Thankfully the 80s paint job would seem to be optional.
Trying to persuade a buddy over here to find room and babysit their 110Hz tractrix horns for a few years...
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Posted by Stitch on
05-05-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d Now some impressions from the main High End at MUC Munich
This Speaker got raves in all Magazines, I visited the room twice because the first time my ears gave a strong message to my Ears :" M-E-R-C-Y PLEASE "Probably the electronics made their Part for it, at my 2. Visit I was close to a black out and I decided to move....
A Speaker from Poland, nice Paint job
Vitavox Ampeggio (Stereophile Speaker of the Year)
Definitely in the Category "Who cares ..."I thought, I am in a wrong movie ... bur Emotion counts
Their motto is:To reach the Top first we dig deep to the roots(Yeah, they were in the middle of the earth...)
Here my tongue sent a message "Stitch, I WANT a Bourbon...I need it"
That is very modern in Germany , buying old Turntables for nothing, refurbish those, offering them for a few thousand bucks and of course
They are great,Emotion you understand (my tongue said Hello again...
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Posted by Stitch on
05-05-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d This was a room called Auditorium, well, Analog CAN sound really bad ...
I simply didn't get it but it will find other friends ... no soundstage, no body, no size, no dynamics, but nice looking, limited range, compressed
Now
Fun counts
Horns from 1930, frequency range was not complete, but what came served a lot of smiles to the Listeners Faces....indeed, always crowded and most smilesI think, most modern Systems simply don't get it and the reproduction via those are probably in a way so natural that the human ear simply likes it
Avantgarde
compared to the Fun from those above: Simply ultra boring, dead, dry
Well, at the end of day I called a Taxi and whispered to the driver"To the best Steak House"I crawled out and ordered their best beef in maximum size, no matter about pricing and downed a bottle of Red Wine...Now I'm back in Life
Munich is great :-)
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-06-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d I generally like what the Polish people did. Of cause from sonic perspective their system with misaligned tweeters is unacceptable but I very much like how they curved both midbass horn and tweeter fame – very tasteful. Design-wise in this configuration MF horn most like has to be crossed very low – I would estimate 6kHz -7kHz, so the tweeters has to be kick in very low as well. If they drop the midbass to the ground and put a small MF in use it might be fun but it will be all another speaker idea. I wish those manufactures do not reinvent the while and do not waste time to do in-necessary mistakes but juts copy Macondo design. It will take years for them to discover and to recognize (some of them will never do and die in ignorance) that ONLY Macondo configuration works properly. So, I have no idea what they keep creating countless wrong designs. Macondo is public, learns hot to make is cheap, find proper drivers and make is under $10K. To press from plastic 3 horns costs nothing, plug fame and the rest efforts to the drivers.
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-06-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d I am looking at those images and a bit puzzled. Do the tweeters attached to their mounting board under an angle or they are paralleled with the mounting board? It is very difficult to judge from those images. It looks like the tweeters attached to their mounting board with angle to compensate the angle under which the mounting board is attached to the loudspeaker. If it is so then the tweeter is paralleled to the MF axis and it is fine design. If the tweeters does not have contra-angle and the tweeters is tilted down than it is not so good and an indication of Silbatone incompetence.
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Posted by Stitch on
05-06-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d Well, I didn't come so close to answer your question right.
I saw a few from the German DIY scenery and for them it was like the return of Jesus, best sound on Planet
But probably they are still deaf as usual, because the Frequency step ups are limited ( simple voice from Sinatra when he raised his voice, it was cut of from headroom) but the overall speed in effortless sound reproduction has had a fascination no other demo could deliver.
The Polish HornName: UNIVERSUM (the red one)Advanced 3-way Horn loaded speaker utilizing JMLC-200T midrange Horn and JMLC-1400 high frequency Horn. Premium drivers used are: Radian 950P with Truextent Beryllium diaphragm. Bass enclosure is of aperiodic vent type with actively driven 15" woofer. This construction is adjusted to give smooth, relaxed sound with lowest distortion possible even at driver resonant frequency - thanks to JMLC Horn contour8 ohmsFrequency response: 30Hz-20kHzMF & HF 100W power handlingLF 300W power handling(from their information paper)
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-06-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote: | Well, I didn't come so close to answer your question right.
I saw a few from the German DIY scenery and for them it was like the return of Jesus, best sound on Planet But probably they are still deaf as usual, because the Frequency step ups are limited ( simple voice from Sinatra when he raised his voice, it was cut of from headroom) but the overall speed in effortless sound reproduction has had a fascination no other demo could deliver. |
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Stitch, I am not able to make any conclusion about Silbatone being “still deaf as usual. I do not know anything about them. I know that behind Silbatone is a local industrial who make a lot of money in his field, for years was scarping WE around the world and now, purely for entertaining, he fancies an idea of making own speakers. There is nothing wrong with it. It is hard to say what is in his head and in his soil. The problem is that we do not hear from him and not clearly see his result of his efforts. The only voice that is coming from Silbatone is from the Joe Roberts and he is white trash culturally and industry pimp ethically. To judge anything about sound by listening Silbatone at show is very unlikely. You can say “something” about the GIP drivers they use but you will not be able to understand the sonic objective and expressive potency of the people behind the Silbatone. You need to hear Silbatone in well established installation, get Silbatone sound as final statement to understand where they are going and what they are trying to do. I do not have this experience and I am not familiar with individual components (would it be electronics of acoustic system) that they use in order to more or less accurately predict anything. A few years back when Silbatone came up with a large single plastic horn loaded by Manger they were wrong and it was bad design and foolish objective. At that time the whore Joe Roberts was goggling web and stick his tang in each ass that defecated word Silbatone’s Manger. At that time we swore that he put your own mama in pawnshop to buy Silbatone logo after he heard the glory of Silbatone’s Manger but I think that since then ever he shut the fuck up about that bad project. So, until somebody credible will explain of demonstrate the Silbatone result I will be still on face about what Silbatone does.
| Stitch wrote: | | The Polish HornName: UNIVERSUM (the red one)Advanced 3-way Horn loaded speaker utilizing JMLC-200T midrange Horn and JMLC-1400 high frequency Horn. Premium drivers used are: Radian 950P with Truextent Beryllium diaphragm. Bass enclosure is of aperiodic vent type with actively driven 15" woofer. This construction is adjusted to give smooth, relaxed sound with lowest distortion possible even at driver resonant frequency - thanks to JMLC Horn contour8 ohmsFrequency response: 30Hz-20kHzMF & HF 100W power handlingLF 300W power handling(from their information paper) |
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I do not know Radian 950P. I have seen that that retard from Brazil that was unfortunately was run over by a train yet was very pleased by Radian 950P. If so then the drivers most likely an incredible cap as the Brailian idiot might sever as a perfect test ground for nothingness in audio. I do not like the polish bass enclosure. They did come up with very slick horn assembly but the bass section (visual) does destroy the beauty of the whole installation. For sure I would like to see sealed enclosure but even the most important is that they need to make bass enclosure appearance-wise to match the rest of the system. I do not know anything about “JMLC Horn contour” and an idea that a MF horn can response from 30Hz-20kHz sounds too ridicules to me.
Rgs, Romy the Cat
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Posted by el`Ol on
05-06-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d Cessaro once again didn't manage to find electronics that compensate the cold TAD sound, so the Silbaton WE demonstration one or two rooms away was quite a contrast. Without being addicted to that kind of sound and without having too much listening experience with it I find that Anima from Greece come quite close to that soft and relaxing sound philosophy with 3" cone drivers for a few bucks. And with more highs. The downfiring thing gives bass, but doesn't sound much like a horn.
Most interesting room at the show: Görlich/Zellaton speakers with perfectly neutral GTE electronics for a quarter of a million euros or so, playing only analogue. Quasi a turntable directly connected to state of the art direct-radiating drivers. Quite unusual. never heard anything like that before.
Best horn and best sound outside the regular show, same procedure as every year.
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-06-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d | el`Ol wrote: | | Cessaro once again didn't manage to find electronics that compensate the cold TAD sound, |
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Very lucid comment. Still, do you feel that “special” electronics will help? I am a bit surprised about Cessaro. They have many models and I presume the have some sales - they are in it for a long run. If so then they heeded 3-4 year back to come up with own MF driver. Just repaint the damp TAD or put it in another external box and call it Cessaro driver. To be more seriously: if they have own MD driver only THAN they will be taken sincerely. They are good company and if they intend to make a mark in what they do then they will not do it without own MF driver. Until they use TADs of the alleged “modified” TAD they will not be the unique company.
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Posted by el`Ol on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d I think they could could make the sound more pleasant with an overkill of second harmonic distortion. But for people who prefer that kind of sound a relax-horn like Anima would be better anyway. No real solution. Maybe they should try the Radian aluminium diaphragms for TAD.
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d | el`Ol wrote: | | I think they could could make the sound more pleasant with an overkill of second harmonic distortion. But for people who prefer that kind of sound a relax-horn like Anima would be better anyway. No real solution. Maybe they should try the Radian aluminium diaphragms for TAD. |
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I think it has nothing to do with second harmonic. One gets more masking effect and more palatable sound but I do not think that this is the problem of Cessaro. Cessaro is a tough spot as they need a good MF compression driver that is stable and available. Anybody know that anybody can make an simple MF horn, buy of eBay some kind of kinky vintage compression driver, clean and tune it up, load it into the horn and to get MF sound that will be way more interesting then the default Cessaro/TAD offers. It will not be problem-free sound as vintage drivers come with own array of complex problems but it for all intended purposes will not be “not TAD anymore.” Unfortunately Cessaro can’t do it as they are production company and they need a reliable and very stable supply, they just can’t rely upon very spotty market of vintage drivers.
Different companies do different things. Some use the existing contemporary big name drivers, all of them not really good. Some of them use the existing contemporary drivers and claim that they modify them, most of the claim BS however. Some of companies do make their own drivers and I do like this approach. For instance AG made this own MF driver. It was no way good driver and no way own driver – they just took no-name cheap OEM driver and made it as their own. Still I think it was a good move as it did have own sound and it become the AG signature sound. I think Cessaro can afford to make their own MF driver, it might be even good MF driver and this will let Cessaro marketing to state that this is their own unique system, not only a fancy stand for TADs.
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Posted by decoud on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d Now they are back in production, surely that would be a great combination...
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Posted by el`Ol on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d | Romy the Cat wrote: |
| el`Ol wrote: | | I think they could could make the sound more pleasant with an overkill of second harmonic distortion. But for people who prefer that kind of sound a relax-horn like Anima would be better anyway. No real solution. Maybe they should try the Radian aluminium diaphragms for TAD. |
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I think it has nothing to do with second harmonic. One gets more masking effect and more palatable sound but I do not think that this is the problem of Cessaro. |
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I read somewhere (was it here?) that it is a set of densely spaced narrow band resonances of the beryllium diaphragms that makes the problem. For me the magnetostatic speakers of a legendary US manufacturer (that measure miserably in time- and frequency domain and are usually combined with Krell or worse) are the proof that errors in almost any domain can be masked with enough second order harmonic distortion and finally lead to a "musical" result.
BTW,
recently I have seen the schematic of a coaxial compression driver with BMS like construction on the JBL website. If the BMS patent should have run out some competition in the field should boost the quality of the concept.
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Posted by el`Ol on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d Looked at the JBL driver again. Seems that the two diaphragms are identical. A funny way to get around the BMS patent.
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Posted by Purite Audio on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d Ralph (Cessaro) is in the process of manufacturing his own compression drivers, I have no details as yet, I believe the diaphragms will be beryllium not made by TAD.Also new and ready for release ,although not shown at Munich are double skinned carbon/fibreglass horns, profiles are slightly different to current ,I will post more details as information emerges.Keith.
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-07-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d It is good that Cessaro come up with own driver. I wish they come with own driver a few years back. Use TADs for year and did not express criticisms to many TAD qualities was kind of “blind” and a bit devaluate the entire statement that they were trying to make. I wish Cessaro also got for own upperbass driver and the most important for the upperbass driver of the right size. They use too large driver for upperbass and it is one of the main liability of the Cessaro design. Who know, if they developed any sense and go for 4” compression driver then it will be interesting. Keith, I understand that you are some kind of dealer with them. So, if you have any pull among them then pitch them the idea of 4” driver (in Macondo-like configuration only 4” driver will work proporly) and if they want I might help them to test what they will come up with.
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Posted by Wojtek on
05-08-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d and especially "perfectionists" markets like Germany. Sound is of a secondary importance. I bet the new driver from Cesarro will be field coil driver because that's what peoplewant NOW. They want "the best" and field coil is now the best. Roman , something tells me that you did not experiment with Tad (4001)driver at all simply discharging it after a short trial. It is totaly unsuited to tractrix horn and works in 350-2k range. To use it like Cesarro did (if their horn is tractrix ) is simply a bad idea and would probably require a tricky filtering and still is probably dead sounding. Kevin Scott with his Pinokio nose horn found maybe optimal solution for
TAD driver.Rgrds, W
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-08-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d | Wojtek wrote: | and especially "perfectionists" markets like Germany. Sound is of a secondary importance. I bet the new driver from Cesarro will be field coil driver because that's what peoplewant NOW. They want "the best" and field coil is now the best. Roman , something tells me that you did not experiment with Tad (4001)driver at all simply discharging it after a short trial. It is totaly unsuited to tractrix horn and works in 350-2k range. To use it like Cesarro did (if their horn is tractrix ) is simply a bad idea and would probably require a tricky filtering and still is probably dead sounding. Kevin Scott with his Pinokio nose horn found maybe optimal solution for TAD driver.Rgrds, W
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I am not sure that Cesarro will go for field coil. I do not know how they think and what they are trying to accomplish. It very much might be field coil, juts because field coil is less expensive to make and more profitable to market. Neither field coil or new perm driver has no assurance or indication about the sound that it does, so there is no reason to speculate about it. The fact that Cesarro do want to departure from TADs is a good sight in my book but the new Cesarro driver might be even worse than TAD or to take Cesarro to the direction that might be wrong. Right or wrong – who knows? I am not intimately familiar with Cesarro in order to predict this next move.
About your defending TAD. Yes, you are correct I experimented and discarded with TAD after short trial and then only heard TAD in numerous installations of other people. As now I would not trust to myself 10 years back (when I was dealing with TADs myself) and I do not feel that other people who use TADs did get the best from TAD. Why do I say it? Become I do want that anybody feel that my disregard of TAD shell mean anything. It is not about passing judgment but about an individual be able to accomplish what he is want to accomplish with sound unit this or that driver. If you or Kevin Scott, or whoever else were able to be happy using TADs than good for you guys. Any driver, absolutely ANY single driver requires working with it. You feel that you made TAD to work for whatever you were trying to achieve? I only appreciate it and I wish you share your experience and your objectives.
The Cat
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Posted by Romy the Cat on
05-09-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d The el`Ol’s comments about Cessaro did not find a proper electronics to drive this TAD made me to ask: what electronics Silbatone uses? It never was part of attention of anybody and regardless if Silbatone demonstrate god or bad sound it might be interesting to know what they are trying to do from electronic perspective. It is kind of hard to assess what they do as I do not know what GIP drivers want o have as amplification, so only god knows how Silbatone drive them.
It looks like Silbatone produce own amplification and this site list a few models claiming “designs, parts quality is far beyond most commercially produced amplifiers” and “once-in-a-lifetime amplifier”. Thises statements we kind of never heard before from audio manufacture…. It looks like classic design and classic contemporary Hi-Fi implementation. They have SET and PP amps, have own preamp. The amps with all expected tube and as I understand they choke-loaded driver stage. I wonder if anybody heard them and if anything known about sonic inclinations of the Silbatone electronics. Also, Silbatone as commercial operation (if they do have any commercial traffic, which is not known) is nothing more than the Korean enthusiast who pays the bill and the blabbering idiot Joe Roberts who runs across the web like wounded in ass hyena and drooling saliva about his affiliation with Silbatone. This type of alliance typically is not the setting where electronics is built. Most likely Silbatone outsources design and production of own electronics. I say “outsources” as this amps do not look like they were made in singular version just for own use but they rather are commercial, batch-made amps. So, I wonder who made them for Silbatone…
The Cat
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Posted by guy sergeant on
05-09-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d As I understand it the Silbatone amplifiers are, in part, the work of JC Morrison. Although very nicely made, its hard to judge if they have any serious intention of selling them. I don't think there is any commercial imperative to do that just as there doesn't seem to be any in freighting WE15's half way around the world. I get the impression that the owner just enjoys doing it and he can. I appreciated the opportunity to hear the system. Never at any point did you sense that you were being sold anything. It was almost making the point that, 'you are unlikely to own this or even have the space for it but here it is anyway'. Certainly while I was in the room, and I went in a few times, they never made mention of the electronics and focussed entirely on the speakers. Most of the time they played the WE15, augmented by a large subwoofer carrying 2 x 30" EV units and 2 x 15". Each WE15 was being used with original WE555 units and carried a 597 above. They said the WE15 was originally intended to run between around 90 Hz and 7 KHz.
The rest of the time they played the smaller system whcih used newly produced GIP 594 mid drivers and new 597 replicas above. I'm not sure what the bass drivers were in those speaker or how they were loaded. The GIP drivers sounded fine although I think their implementation could be more interesting.
They played a wide range of music from Led Zeppelin to Maria Callas.
Also at the show were the LM Audio drivers another company (from China) making replica WE units. Sadly these weren't being played.
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Posted by el`Ol on
05-09-2012
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fiogf49gjkf0d I found the Silbatone electronics was somewhere between the neutral sounding electronics Cessaro used and the super-warm electronics at the Anima room. About going away from tractrix: The Anima horn with the little paper cone driver looked more like exponential, with tractrix on top for the tweeter. One can say that Anima sounds muddy if one belong to the ones who like it very precise, but one can't say the mishmash of horn geometries sounds inconsistent.
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