At recent Nord-West trade show Jeffrey Jackson, the guy who runs Experience Music site, demonstrated his new horn Installation. I know little about it and would like to make some comments about what is feel is obvious from the image.

It is 5-ways with LF coming from this box in the middle on the floor. It looks like the wardrobe in the middle is amplifiers and it looks like it is a full-range amp, not DSET as I can see filters on the speakers shelf. As I understand it is the Jeffrey’s own amp:

http://www.experiencemusic.net/Eimac75tl.htm

Considering the Jeffrey’s association with GOTO the drivers might be GOTO, which one and how used is unknown at this point.

From the comments I heard personally from a person who heard the sound of the installation it looks like the result was OK but still not there. The person complained about dried, over-damped sound with a heavy shortage of the necessary amount twinkleness and sparks. It might be so or it might be not – I was not there. Jeffrey’s occasionally posts at this site I hope he would show up and comment on the Sound he was able to get out if this installation.

A few my own comments. First thing first – I do applaud and very enthusiastically support that fact that this is probably the ONLY commercial public installation where the person went into design expense to time-align the channels naturally. Here is where the Experience Music’s attempt is stay well above anything else. Unfortunately, like always with horns he pays for it a lot and here is what the tiny little things kicks in… So, let go from admiration of time-alignment into constrictive criticism.

Midbass horn: it a new meaning on half-space as someone make a joke at AA. It looks like 50Hz horn and most little crossed at 400Hz-500Hz above. I said before and I am saying again – I do not think that 50Hz horn might live under MF channels in horn installation. The price of the having that mouth’s opening in front of MF and tweeter is too high price to pay. In the time-aligned configuration the mouth of 50Hz horn is 6”-8” ahead of tweeter – too, too, too, too, too much. I do give a credit to the elegant shape Jeffrey was trying to make his 50Hz horn but in going this shape he last some sq inches in midbass-horn mouth.  What I see would be much better if this shape midbass-horn would be sitting on the external left and right side of the system, mount to the right and left wall. Perhaps Jeffrey intended to do it but looking at the high of the frame he constricted it does not look so. If the midbass-horn goes on the side walls then the lover MF horn go to floor – it would be way more interesting configuration. In this configuration the midbass-horn might be used much closer to listening spot and the entire installation might work in much more extreme nearfiled – it would help a lot with the reportedly needed sparkles in sound…

Lover MF horn: The profile looks like from the classical GOTO playbook, probably 200Hz-220Hz horn and the channel most likely is crossed at 1kHz -2kHz. In Macondo I call it Fundamentals Channel - I love this channel. It might be a very interesting debate if the Lover MF horn should be faster or slower opening horn. With faster profile (Tratrix, LeCleach) we have more articulate but shallow lower end. With slower opening (exponential, parabolic) we have more LF extension but it is in a way more muddy bass, the slower opening also make gloriously softer bass… So, it is how it was used and there is no truly any golden rule in it… The key is what kind accent the Lover MF horn provides in the system.

MF horn: It looks like a compression driver in 500Hz  LeCleach horn. For me it is too far. The price of putting the midbass horn in front I think is too high… The presentce of the horizontal (!!!) surface above (look like a shelf for crossover) is absolutely prohibitive in my view

HF channel: I feel that tweeter is los in this configuration. The baffles around it too much and there are too much reflections for it to work as well as it can. One of the solutions would be to use a line array tweeter (ribbon) with very narrow (15-25degree) vertical firing diagram. But it will send the Lover MF horn even more up. So, do not put the Midbass horn below the MF… :-)

The Frame: I do not like it at all. Perhaps it is just a temporary solution juts for the show. The front tripod should not be there. The baffle with MF horn shell be stronger and shell hold the Lover MF horn without any front legs. If the Lover MF horn too heavy then use contra-level with added mass to balance out the Lover MF horn’s moment. I think the black-painted frame with the shelf and the front legs will be way more graceful solution, the solution that would visually connect the midbass horn and the Lover MF horn into one visually compiled system.

serenechaos wrote:

Having just returned from this show, I have a few comments on your comments... 1) Yes, it was the amp you posted the link to.  2) Yes, the tweeter and two MF channel drivers were GOTO 3) Your estimates on flare rates aren't too far off (don't know if Jeffery want's them posted, but he was quite free with that, and all kinds of information at the show).  4) The main thing I wanted to comment on though was "person complained about dried, over-damped sound with a heavy shortage of the necessary amount twinkleness and sparks."  I was in and out of that room quite a few times, both days, and sometimes CDs were played, sometimes vinyl, sometimes really good tapes.  Sometimes the turntable was well adjusted, sometimes, well... not..  When it was right, it was hard to fault.  Everything was integrated, and "locked in" and the front row of chairs was only ~8' from the Midbass horns.  Everything from symphonys to solos-- Easily the best I've ever heard; i'm glad he brought it across the country to a show.  Now I'm trying to decide what do do the same, and what to do different.  I've wondered about that frame/front tripod.  Would it diffract soundwaves from the high MF horn and tweeter?

I do not invest a lot of credit in comment of my west coast friend, nether in your comment nor even in my own comment if I were in the room. The sound we get out of playbacks is something that serves our own sonic interests and audio adjectives. If I was at the show I would be interested in some specifics that would hardly wound be possible to furnish or to observe at show condition. Still, your comment that the Jeffery’s installation did throw some moments of excellence is nice to hear.

In the long run the actual result that Jeffery was able to obtain from that installation is not important. The most important is what and how he was trying to accomplish and that does have a great educational value.

Again, the Jeffery installation is the only commercials attempt that I have seen to time align channels by the way I do it – naturally. I said before and I will say again: horns-centric miss-align systems are crap and Jeffery’s intend is, in my view in very positive direction. It is hard to say anything further. Jeffery used Su’s GOTO drivers. GOTO are Morons and they advocated 4th orders crossovers. I hate those Linkwita-Riley fantasies about constant voltage – the people who use it juts have no ears. Still, I have no idea of GOTO might be used with slow crossovers, and I have no idea how Jeffery used them.

It is hard to judge what worth to imitate and what to do different – it would be nice to know what and how was done. In case GOTO drivers it would be hard for me for instance to predict anything with a degree of certainty and I did not play with GOTO drivers. From another side I was told that Jeffery sells the installation for $40K. It is not so huge price. Even if you obtain the drivers in Japan then they still will be around $10K-$15K that lives ~$25K for whole system.  The MF horn cost around $1K and the lower MF horn around $2K. That lives $1K-$2K for a frame (obviously it shell be better quality and design) and leaves ~$15K for big horn.  I think it is somewhere very reasonable numbers not to met ion that the drivers most like are being sold, even in wholesale, not as it might be sold in Japan.

So, considering that Jeffery demonstrates his ability for more of less sane horn construction considering that he is open for custom commissioning:

http://www.experiencemusic.net/philosophy.htm

, considering his reasonable prices I think that people who would look forward to build something similar might consider to recruit Jeffery for a custom project. The system need to be designed, estimated and tailored for the specific need - in my mind this is how any more or less serious installation shell be done. I think it is a good direction and if we have 5-6 builders in US with knowledge, taste and skills (not the Fitzmaurice-level fucking idiots that infested market nowadays) then in 5-10 years horn-loaded installations might be very far then they are now. In fact, if Jeffery (who is a young guy) will be in business then public has from him 2-5years when it would be possible to make his to do anything worthy and later the industry’s brain disease will forces him to make the same crap as any other audio company do in their plunge in reference points, descent of audio objectives and profit maximization.

I ask Jeffery about crossovers... 
Yes, the GOTO sub comes with a steep slope. 
The crossovers Jeffery built (all the horns) are 1st order, and cross-over points fine tuned by ear. 

The “what to do different or the same” question was just what was bouncing around in my head at the moment I was writing. 

I plan on building something with similar horns, but giving the mid-bass a rounder mouth, and mounted to the ceiling –
which will necessitate a different style mounting framework for the other horns. 

I wanted to use something which could easily adjust distance/angle until the right spot was found.  

cv wrote:

Did I ever mention my sulphur hexafluoride idea to you? You fill a horn with this gas, sealing the front with some loose fitting heavy grade mylar or whatever. The horn can then be 44% of the size you'd otherwise need.

cv wrote:

I was going to email Jeffrey and ask about them - kind of like the scene at the movies in Annie Hall where the director is in the queue at the movie... But I'm pretty sure they all needed a place to crash after the beers were cracked open...

cv wrote:

That said, I do have is a single 160Hz/1.5" finally up and running on a compression driver, and it's a different world - stunning. Actually the results are exactly as JJ described.

Without wishing to open a can of worms....

Mine are the 1443 - same as the 1428B save for the field coil voltage. I've finally got round to ins talling some of Cogent's replacement diaphragms to restore them properly. I can't say enough good things about Steve and Rich and how helpful they have been. I wonder if their bigger driver, with its 4" throat might fit your requirements for midbass when you sort out your new abode?

Regarding Jeffrey's comments to me - they were more regarding what to expect of the horns, more so than the driver they were used with. He is indeed using GOTO, he has the RCAs and many others, but I should end this hearsay! Let's just say that he is one of a very small handful of people who I trust on these matters and leave it at that!

cheers


     

No, the 1443 is also a field coil, just a different voltage.

Re: the configuration - indeed; I am hoping to get 300Hz with the RCA, then the S2 from between 1k-1500 and up, + tweeter. Below the RCA willbe a compromise to begin with, but hopefully will lead into 5 ways.

Regarding the RCA breathing when driven lower - I'm not entirely sure at this point. I do know that it was not happy on the 340Hz horn.  
Steve and Rich's cones are carbon fibre, the originals are phenolic. They do seem to sound different, but its early days.

It will take a while to get this all sorted, but I will report back when ready... I will try observing at your suggested x/o experiments in particular - those settings should work (or at least not destroy) the S2 and enable an interesting comparison.

 

cv wrote:

Re: the configuration - indeed; I am hoping to get 300Hz with the RCA, then the S2 from between 1k-1500 and up, + tweeter. Below the RCA willbe a compromise to begin with, but hopefully will lead into 5 ways.

The subject it itself is very interesting and although it not directly relates to the Experience Music Horn Installation but there was some talk about in this thread. There was conversation on the similar subject at British hifiwigwam forum

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=28094&forum_id=19&jump_to=738445

The whole thread is very much not worth to look at but from page 19 it get interesting stating from Coco comments. I generally do not participate in the internet discussions where my former brazilin defecation ‘angeloitacare’ is posting but I hope he long gone from there. It would be interesting if CV and him local British folk would play with S2 and RCA 1443/1428B and try to figure out what is the most characteristic for sound of those drivers.

CV was right in the page #21 of the above-linked thread - we juts are scratching the surface of knowledge how the RCA drivers might sound. Cogent do not use RCA but they have their own version based ups the RCA design. I do not see anybody ever talk or think about sound of Cogent RCA.  They might be good or not – not one knows and not one unfortunately looks into Cogent’s RCA sound seriously.  There is also community of all those cretins around the Oswald's Mill who in one way or another trumpet RCA drivers but they are the ultimate Sarah Palins of Audio and to expect anything sensible from them is like to expect from a monkey to learn a multiplication table.

So, let see where the Brits will be landing at…