GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

Analog Playback
Topic: My lp playing epiphany

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Posted by Romy the Cat on 08-18-2008

It has been changed. Looking at the extend of my record collection, the efforts I went with my TT setup and my “End of the Life Phonostage” it would be hardly expected from me to be somebody else a die-hard vinyl dude but it is what it is. Those feelings are brewing in me for the last 3-4 years – the feeling of not equitable cost-benefit ratio of LP universe. The subject that in my live makes LP less desirable is FM and I have been straggling with the fact that FM is wiping out my CD/LP listening habits…

If not the subjects of put audio interests (like testing some gear or something like this) then it sometimes goes for weeks or month that I do not listen my CDs or Records. In my listening I pick very specific CDs and very specific LP… and I do not care about other mass CD/LP that I have. So, I kind of slowing considering to get rid of the balk of my CD/LP – the second, third …eleventh and so on performances that I do not need. I do not know how many LP/CD I have, perhaps couple thousands CD and 10-15 thousands records. What I think is to convert it to 1000 CDs and 500-700LPs – the only first the best performances that I know and let the rest go. With amount and quietly of music I have from FM I truly have no interest to the rest of my pre-caned music.

The only thing that is hanging in the air is what I would do with all those records that I am not interested to hold anymore. To trash then is a barbarism – they are good records and good music. To sell them is not something that attracts me… so I am looking for an inspiration of what to do with those records. I heard that in Seattle some high-end coffee and cigar shops play classical LPs for patrons. If I have a nice shop like this in Boston then I would feed them with selected records… Unfortunately in Boston’s upscale cigar saloons the Morons watch the stupid baseball games…

Oh, well, in 2008 I bought only 3 records. One of them I did not even heard….

The caT

Posted by Antonio J. on 08-19-2008
That's what I'd do. Maybe a High School or Music School that already has a room for allowing the kids listening to recorded music. If they hadn't the means for LP playback, I'd get them some sturdy and decent sounding TT. Sometimes I feel the same about my vinyl collection and reproduction rig. It's been for more than 4 months I don't drop the needle on a LP. Rgrds

Posted by Wojtek on 08-19-2008
Kids in High Schools or even a Music Schools are listening ONLY and exlusively to I-Pods. Romy if you don't want to be bothered selling piece by piece ,sell it in bulk to record store for people who would want them and enjoy them or post them on "Exotic leftovers " I'm a sure some would rent a truck and take it. rgrds, w

Posted by Antonio J. on 08-19-2008
but maybe their teachers still play "old" CDs and vinyls, hence the suggestion. When I was a teenager at High School they had a modest vinyl system, our music teacher played some vinyls for us, and later at the exam, we had to recognize the pieces. I keep fond memories of those classes. I wish our teacher had had some of the recordings Romy wouldn't keep hehehehe Rgrds

Posted by Paul S on 08-19-2008

I have mentioned more than once, and I think it should be obvious to fellow tweaks, that I instituted a sort of cost/benefit "go/no-go" policy some time back. Oddly enough, the ML2s fit comfortably within my parameters, as do the "value" pieces I've picked up and modified over the last couple of years. So, why don't I enjoy my swell system more? Is it because I've cut all those corners?

I have to say, again, that the Biggest Spoilers (BS) for me are bad electricity and program material, and not necessarily in that order.

The bad electricity is so relentless that when it suddenly turns good I am often taken by surprise to catch myself sunk into music I had been +/- distancing myself from earlier.

As for program material, what are you gonna do?

One weird (and very cool) thing has been the "car experiences", especially with the live FM broadcasts, where I find myself feeling just like I do when I'm in the live audience. Yes, I occasionally get this with CDs or LPs, too, but the element of surprise is almost never as great in those cases, and the sense of "extension" one gets from an audience is almost never there. Sure, I've heard most of my records before, and I realize this contributes to the situation; but maybe the element of spontaneity is also lessened because the Sound itself is almost always more of a factor with CD and LP.

Tuners have definitely become the component-du-jour.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by steverino on 05-22-2009

Responding to the statements in the Cat's second paragraph concerning lp downsizing:

FWIW I had a similar dissatisfaction several years ago although I had nowhere near the number of lps that Cat has. My library was about 2000 lps. I had already gotten rid of most of my CDs around 10 years ago just from growing distaste for digital recordings (at least as expressed on disk). Anyway prior to my epiphany I just played LPs at whim or to obtain variety of styles. As time went on I felt more and more annoyance from deciding which LPs to play and was getting less enjoyment in playing them. Then it occurred to me: why play 2 different LPs that you only half like when you can play an LP you really like twice. From that I made the decision to only have LPs that I really really liked. This required me to make an attempt to rank order them at least in groups of 100 (ie top 100, top 200 etc). The only split was between classical and everything else. (The ranking didn't take that long maybe 6 hours and it has changed only a little in the past 2 years.) Then I started playing the lower ranked LPs to verify that I didn't mind getting rid of them (sale/donation). Within a year I was down to about 800 LPs - 600 classical and 200 everything else. I have a further system where I play my top 300 LPs twice as often as the rest. Interestingly a sizable percentage ~ 25% of the lower half classical LPs are different performances of LPs in the top group which mitigates against getting tired of hearing the same performance over and over. Now I just rotate through them and I really am enjoying it far more. Steverino

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-23-2009

steverino wrote:
Within a year I was down to about 800 LPs - 600 classical and 200 everything else. I have a further system where I play my top 300 LPs twice as often as the rest. Interestingly a sizable percentage ~ 25% of the lower half classical LPs are different performances of LPs in the top group which mitigates against getting tired of hearing the same performance over and over. Now I just rotate through them and I really am enjoying it far more.

... that is the whole points, isn’t it? I probably need to do something similar; I just need to find a stimulation to start doing it. What was your incentive?

Rgs, Romy

Posted by Reggie on 06-03-2009

Is it the work of the vinyl upkeep? Could it be that the inability to throw an LP on the TT, without the ritualistic prep, is taking from the spontaneity of getting the music? That's the only downside I can see about vinyl. It's much more work to keep. Vinyl in my not too extensive experience is the medium which comes closest to the real thing and conveying the essence of the music.

Posted by Romy the Cat on 06-13-2009

With new MF amplification and change of Macondo reconfiguration I found myself to play a lot of analog lately. In addition to anything else I kind of interested in getting the “new” Macondo’s imaging pattern and LPs are the best tool to do it. With all musically Fm it is difficult to say anything definitive about imaging as everything that comes from FM is frigging imaging-great. The LPs are much more “define” and much more critical from imaging perspective, not to mention the dynamics vs. imaging aspect….

Actually, playing the records for the last week I kind of turned to like it… again. The renaissance of record playing habits? That is interesting….

The Cat

Posted by Romy the Cat on 06-13-2009

After my recent vinyl re-inspiration I did today something that I did not do for over two year – I went for vinyl shopping. It is not that I was walking by my local vinyl shops and stopped by for a glance or two -I do it occasionally – but rather I specifically decided to go to a local vinyl shop to pick some vinyl inspirations.

An hour later and $60 less I brought home 8 records that I will be spinning this evening. A few words about the equipment. The arms look like keep all operational parameters of the cartridges over the period that I did not care/heck them. The last time I was caring about my analog setup it was what I was buying my last cartridge a year ago. Also, one more observation – listening the Otophone Jubilee is it EXTREMELY difficult to switch to SPU Classic…

I bought the Mahler First Symphony by London with Jascha Horenstein. Since the Levine played it LIVE so phenomenal last year I developed a lot of addition to this Symphony. The insult the injury to the Horenstein’s 1969 performance is that I pressed on Unicorn Label – a wet dream for some people. The record I got G2 but it is in meant shape . I have to confess that I am NOT a fan of sound from Unicorn. I always find it bright and mindlessly aggressive. Well, I paid the $5.99 to confirm that I was right again, in fact I was.

I got two records of Starker with Sebok played 5 Beethoven’s cello sonatas. I think I have it on other labels. I bought it because it is an early 1963 performance and it pressed at a label that I do not know – British RMC. It looks like some kind UK Record Club. It might be as bad pressed as our TimeMusic subscription but it might be as good as the Reader’s Digest subscription. I am listing it now. I am not thrilled with the arrangement of sound from RMC label. It is not end of the world but not a lot of special; on a sonic scale of pressings I would give them 3 out of 10. My records are S1. The Beethoven’s sonatas and the relatively young Starker are of cause beyond any criticism.

I got a very interesting record – the Bolshoi Theater Orchestra performs live Russian showpiece at NY Metropolitan in 1959. I expected the showpiece but got literally shit. The play and the sound are horrible – a direct miss and a good candidate for trash.

I got a new for myself concerto: the Alexander Tcherepnin’s Second Piano Concerto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Tcherepnin

performed by the author at piano and with no less then Rafael Kubelik conducting the Bavarian Broadcasting SO. I have no idea what to expect and I did not linen it yet but here is what all fun comes from. It is DG 139379

Then I got the Schubert’s 7(9) Symphony with Bohm and Berlin – I never heard this particular Bohm’s play, why hot. I just need to be in a special “Schubert” mode – not today but I am sure I will be there.

The last two records are kind of freak of the nature:

The 1976 play of Ozawa leading BSO with Rostropovich plays the Shostakovich’s Second and Glazunov’s Chant. The well-celebrated record and I have those performances on other slicing but this record have some quietuses – it is sealed. Well, it is the original 1976 pressing, un-played and even thought the DG pressed badly in 70s the quality of the event do not allow do not pay 5.99 for the sealed 35 year old record.

The same goes for the second record: it is Rostropovich with Miaskovsky Cello Concerto on one side (Philharmonia under Sargent) and Ostrakh with Prokiviev Violin Concerto #2 on other side (Philharmonia under Galliera). The record is not the original EMI from 1957 but Seraphim piled this record up in 70s. However, it is also sealed and it is $4.99. Hard to pass by…

The Cat

Posted by steverino on 06-13-2009

Romy said: Actually, playing the records for the last week I kind of turned to like it… again. The renaissance of record playing habits? That is interesting….

There is a psychophysiological process called habituation (and its reverse called dishabituation). When something becomes repetitive the brain starts to tune it out or become less excited by it. However a change in the stimulus can produce dishabituation which removes the habituation. Then the habituation process starts up again unless there is another change. This is why audiophiles start playing their music in excitement whenever they change their system for the better. Everything seems new - at least for a moment. Interestingly people usually have a small subset of things they like that never seems to habituate or doesn't stay habituated for long. For example we all get tired of eating the same thing at every meal but we have certain foods that we could eat far more often than others - for me its peanut butter rice and apple pie. I can eat these even if I'm not in the mood to eat. The same thing applies to music for music lovers - there is a subset of music pieces which never really becomes tiresome (habituated) to a given person. That was the point of my previous post concerning reducing an lp collection to those recordings that do not become boring even after great familiarity.

Posted by Paul S on 06-13-2009

The paranoia has long since set in: I am convinced that career record shoppers have already gotten to and picked over everything any place I am likely to think of to shop. I very rarely find anything really great. But it does happen occasionally.

How exciting it would be to find the 1957 Rostroprovich EMI, or something like that! I can think of lots of examples!

I am not sure I've played a Seraphim since I started seriously measuring the thickness of the LPs and setting VTA accordingly, but my opinion of all the DGs I've tried has been raised considerably since I adopted this technique.

I will still buy clean Seraphims with good program material if I do not have the original. If I do have the original, I pass on the Seraphim, even as a "back-up", UNLESS it is a record I have loved so much that I am killing it.

Maybe the careful VTA setting could make the Seraphims better, too? They do have some nice programs...

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by drdna on 06-14-2009

steverino wrote:
This is why audiophiles start playing their music in excitement whenever they change their system for the better.

I would say just whenever they change their systems, period. Often different is confused with better for this very reason.

steverino wrote:
For example we all have certain foods that we could eat far more often than others - for me its PEANUT BUTTER RICE...

Um... wh-what?

Posted by drdna on 06-14-2009

Paul S wrote:
The paranoia has long since set in: I am convinced that career record shoppers have already gotten to and picked over everything any place I am likely to think of to shop. I very rarely find anything really great.

Setting aside that proposition for a moment, tongue in cheek though it may be, let's look at the issues:

There hasn't been any new vinyl made to speak of in about 15 years, so there is no source of replenishment.

Of all records made, only 5% (1 out of every 20) are classical.

Of classical music: here is the top five albums sold this week (on CD of course):

   1. The Priests (some Christian/Gospel vocal group)

   2. Placido Domingo

   3. Luciano Pavarotti

   4. The Cistercian Monks (more chanting)

   5. Gergiev/Mahler No. 8

So fully 80% is vocal/popular work by volume. SO much so that, when I have received used records by mail, the sellers sometimes pad the package with old opera/vocal records used as filler to protect the "real" record. I guess when they run out of Styrofoam peanuts.

Most records are not re-sold. They are destroyed. They are put into a giant chipping machine and go into a landfill. They are considered worthless by folks who have switched to CD's (or who these days don't even know what a vinyl LP is or how that relates to MP3's) or they just can't be bothered to find a buyer for those old LP's (most music stores do not take used vinyl) when all they will net is a few dollars. Into the trash it goes!

Adrian

Posted by Reggie on 06-14-2009

When I first discovered just how good vinyl playback was compared to digital, I became addicted to going out and buying records. Most that I bought cost me on average 50cents each. I quickly learned to check each carefully, so most I've bought are in premium condition. Over the course of two years, I must have bought at least 2000 LPs. - I've not counted them, but that number would be conservative.

It never ceases to amaze me how good vinyl records can sound. Western Classical music is very important to me, but I love many forms of music.

I listened to Glenn Gould playing Bach Goldberg Variations the other day. The music at first seems stark, simple, unadorned I guess because of the lack of accompanyment (by other instruments). It stikes me as a pure mathematical excercise in logical progressions, and Gould is masterful. I feel that he is intimate with every molecule of the music. My impression is one of slight dryness, without any of the added flair some other pianists might be unable to avoid adding. In a sense he is the perfect conduit and the notes and progressions themselves as skillfully executed by Gould need no further beautifying. Listening to the complex variations evolve, I find myself lulled (mesmerized?) into a sort of peaceful state and contantly hooked into the music.

Posted by Paul S on 06-14-2009

Adrian, your point is perhaps better taken with respect to new/newer LPs. I was referring to the better old LPs that are only found on the re-sale market. I reckon there should be lots more good classical LPs at used record stores, since (and also by your account) people generally just don't care about this stuff.

But it's no secret that there really are "collectors" who actually acquire LPs - including classical LPs - based only on the label, stamper #'s, etc., because they believe these LPs may be "worth something" to other collectors; ie, they are perceived to be "valuable" not for their content but only due to scarcity and demand (mostly from other collectors); the perfect circle jerk.

I have long been aware that unsold LPs have been shredded and recycled to make new LPs. And it's funny that the "better" contemporary LPs all make a big deal of advertising that they are made from "virgin vinyl". This gives grounds (sorry...) for the question, how many really good old LPs have been pulped to make bad re-issues?

Meanwhile, the power company has anticipated the cooler weather and kept the power at low ebb, so even the good LPs are off form...

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by Paul S on 06-14-2009

Reggie, I've also made some critical observations about Gould's playing recently, while comparing his '55 and '81 Goldberg variations via my truly terrible company truck CD player.

Yes, the best version of this cycle I have heard is the original '55 vinyl. But few have the original '55 LPs, let alone the 1S iteration.

Once we get into dubs, IMO all bets are off regarding which copy will offer the most of what, meaning, pick your poison. This is one reason for owning several copies of a seminal work.

Unfortunately, THE Sound is where we find it; vinyl, per se, is not a lock, by any means.

Fortunately, Gould's superb '55 Goldberg can survive a lot of mistreatment.

Although I listen almost exclusively to LPs, I am quite leary of vinyl culture that implodes upon itself, like all object worship must do.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by drdna on 06-14-2009

Paul S wrote:
Adrian, your point is perhaps better taken with respect to new/newer LPs. I was referring to the better old LPs that are only found on the re-sale market. I reckon there should be lots more good classical LPs at used record stores...

Um, there are no new records, Paul. That all stopped about 10-15 years ago, for the most part. I actually think that very few people buying vinyl over the past ten years have thrown away anything. This is probably a pretty good source of mint condition vinyl.

No, I was talking about the old stuff, too. I almost imagine an army of hoarders: "I heard from Michael Fremer that the sound changes significantly after a half dozen plays, so I have bought fifty copies of mint -1A -1A Kind of Blue, and after I play a copy a dozen times I just use it as a Frisbee for my dog."

But probably the truth is more mundane. Like every other collectible, ranging from muscle cars to numismatics, it is in large part a matter of damage, decay, destruction, and loss. My Mason jar of zinc pennies notwithstanding, everything falls prey to quiet steady attrition.

P.S. Regardless, it doesn't make that '55 -1S Gould any easier to find, does it? Sad

Adrian

Posted by drdna on 06-15-2009

Paul S wrote:
Yes, the best version of this cycle I have heard is the original '55 vinyl. But few have the original '55 LPs, let alone the 1S iteration.

Paul, are you referring to the Phillips, blue Columbia label or the grey 6-eye?

Adrian

Posted by Paul S on 06-15-2009

Adrian, acording to the archives, Gould recorded the work in summer, 1955, and the original Goldberg Variations album was released in early 1956 on Columbia's "Masterworks" label, which I think at that time generally featured re-issues of still-earlier "classics". I do not know if the original recording was done "bi-naural", as some (and more than we knew...) were at that time; but in any case, the first edition was only released in then-generic "mono", as far as I know, although at that time there were no special notes to that effect, whereas "long playing" was generally noted, apropos.

The work was an immediate smash hit for Columbia, and it "enjoyed" many, many subsequent editions, beginning shortly after the first release, hence the confusion about its origins.

Good luck finding a decent early edition, at any price!

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by drdna on 06-15-2009

Paul S wrote:
Adrian, acording to the archives, Gould recorded the work in summer, 1955, and the original Goldberg Variations album was released in early 1956 on Columbia's "Masterworks" label

Right I believe you are correct, it was first released with on the Blue label and then on the six-eye label (grey mono editions) when they started that the next year. Also, it was released via Dutch Phillips for European distribution. I agree that the original Columbia is the edition to get and the subsequent dubs are inferior. I have the grey 6-eye and wondered if you had ever heard the original Blue label version. They tend to be a bit noisy in general. Adrian

Posted by Paul S on 06-15-2009

Adrian, it has been my understanding that there were several international "1st" releases of this work, all within days or weeks of each other. Until now I have thought that the gray "6-eye" was "the" US edition, and this is the only 1S I have heard (although I do not own it).

I have a few old 6-eyes that are among the best-sounding LPs I own. I cannot say this of the older "solid label" Columbias; but perhaps they just want more careful VTA to get the best from them?

The older LPs were not yet made of "vinyl", and many sound quite "brittle" now, in my experience, including some of the most wonderful stuff on early RCA, pre-"shaded dog". This stuff is the strongest argument for a 2nd, spherical stylus, for serious listeners.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by drdna on 06-16-2009

Paul S wrote:
I have a few old 6-eyes that are among the best-sounding LPs I own. I cannot say this of the older "solid label" Columbias; but perhaps they just want more careful VTA to get the best from them? The older LPs were not yet made of "vinyl", and many sound quite "brittle" now, in my experience, including some of the most wonderful stuff on early RCA, pre-"shaded dog". This stuff is the strongest argument for a 2nd, spherical stylus, for serious listeners.

This absolutely agrees with my impressions. I have a large number of the older pre-"6-eyes" and "Shaded Dog" versions, you know the older 12" and even 10" versions. They have an incredible immediacy and lifelike sound that cannot be beat, but there is a lot of noise, even when the albums are pristine with no groove wear, to the point that is hard to listen around the noise sometimes.

You may be on to something regarding the formulation of the vinyl and that the older albums may be reaching the end of their lifespan, hence the brittle sound, although there is always the possibility that with the proper VTA, the proper equalization, and a real mono needle, we might both be pleasantly surprised.

Posted by Reggie on 06-16-2009

Paul S wrote:
Reggie, I've also made some critical observations about Gould's playing recently, while comparing his '55 and '81 Goldberg variations via my truly terrible company truck CD player.

Yes, the best version of this cycle I have heard is the original '55 vinyl. But few have the original '55 LPs, let alone the 1S iteration.

Once we get into dubs, IMO all bets are off regarding which copy will offer the most of what, meaning, pick your poison. This is one reason for owning several copies of a seminal work.

Unfortunately, THE Sound is where we find it; vinyl, per se, is not a lock, by any means.

Fortunately, Gould's superb '55 Goldberg can survive a lot of mistreatment.

Although I listen almost exclusively to LPs, I am quite leary of vinyl culture that implodes upon itself, like all object worship must do.

Best regards,
Paul S

Hi Paul,

The version I listened to is the '55 recording. Your last statement regarding your being leary of the vinyl culture makes a lot of sense. That said, in my listening experience with vinyl, which is admittedly far more limited compared to you guys, the majority of recordings -where I'm familiar or have both the CD and vinyl - the vinyl version almost always sounds better - but more to the point, invoves me so much more in the experience of listening.

Reggie

Posted by Reggie on 06-16-2009

Paul S wrote:

I will still buy clean Seraphims with good program material if I do not have the original. If I do have the original, I pass on the Seraphim, even as a "back-up", UNLESS it is a record I have loved so much that I am killing it.

Maybe the careful VTA setting could make the Seraphims better, too? They do have some nice programs...

Best regards,
Paul S

Paul, I have many seraphims in excellent - pristine condition. One example (record itself in excellent condition and cover in good condition) I pulled out just now is a marvellous performance of Brahms Liebslieder Waltzes (complete Opp. 52 & 65) by the Russian (later to become American citizens) painists Vronsky and Babin. They are accompanied by soprano Elsie Morison, contralto Marjorie Thomas, tenor Richard Lewis, and baritone Donald Bell. On this particular recording....

"Without a doubt, the most wonderful presentation of Brahms' melodious Liebslieder Waltzes we've ever come across!...If this does not melt your heart, well..."
The New Records

That testimony says it all, and does not exaggerate. If you don't have this one Paul, you should try and get it.

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